THE DARK CITY
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.



 
HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityRegisterLog in

 

 Sharing the Love

Go down 
+4
DominicJ
Shadows Revenge
Cavash
BetrayTheWorld
8 posters
AuthorMessage
BetrayTheWorld
In Exile
avatar

Posts : 2665
Join date : 2013-04-04

Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 19 2013, 14:21

In the entry for combat drugs, DE codex pg 25, it says "All units in your army that have combat drugs will benefit from the effect listed for the entire game."

If an IC joins a unit, per the BRB, said IC becomes a normal member of said unit for all rules purposes.

If said IC doesn't have combat drugs, but the unit they join does, does that now mean that they will receive the benefits of said drugs? Based on the RAW, that seems to be the case. If anyone has page numbers or quotes to the contrary, it'd be great to hear from you.

Many USRs confer the special rules of a single model to the entire unit, such as skilled rider. This seems to be worded as such, since it refers to the entire unit, and as far as I know, this hasn't been FAQed to say otherwise.
Back to top Go down
Cavash
Lord of the Chat
Cavash

Posts : 3237
Join date : 2012-04-15
Location : Stuck in an air vent spying on plotters

Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 19 2013, 14:27


_________________

Sharing the Love YiVCUio
Back to top Go down
BetrayTheWorld
In Exile
avatar

Posts : 2665
Join date : 2013-04-04

Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 19 2013, 14:55

@Cavash wrote:
https://www.thedarkcity.net/t5083-combat-drugs?highlight=combat+drugs

I hope this helps.

It does, thanks!

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like that thread was ever really settled.

I suppose it comes down to this:

DE codex pg 25, it says "All units in your army that have combat drugs will benefit from the effect listed for the entire game."

Since it says "Units" and not "Models", if you read that as saying it confers the effects to the entire unit, then it IS specifically saying that it confers the special rule to the entire unit, therefore overriding the rule that says:

BRB pg. 39, (approximation) Special rules of a model are not conferred to a joined IC unless the special rule itself states otherwise.
Back to top Go down
Cavash
Lord of the Chat
Cavash

Posts : 3237
Join date : 2012-04-15
Location : Stuck in an air vent spying on plotters

Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 19 2013, 14:58

I disagree on that. I believe that the IC does not get the effects of Combat Drugs, that's why you can choose to purchase the wargear for the Archon. Why would they do that when you could just put him with Wyches and get it for free?

_________________

Sharing the Love YiVCUio
Back to top Go down
BetrayTheWorld
In Exile
avatar

Posts : 2665
Join date : 2013-04-04

Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 19 2013, 15:06

@Cavash wrote:
I disagree on that. I believe that the IC does not get the effects of Combat Drugs, that's why you can choose to purchase the wargear for the Archon. Why would they do that when you could just put him with Wyches and get it for free?

Because that would allow him to leave the unit and still have it?
Back to top Go down
Cavash
Lord of the Chat
Cavash

Posts : 3237
Join date : 2012-04-15
Location : Stuck in an air vent spying on plotters

Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 19 2013, 15:11

The unit might have Combat Drugs but because he doesn't have the Wargear he doesn't benefit from the special rule. The special rule does not say that they are confered to the Archon.
The Archon doesn't get the Drugs.

_________________

Sharing the Love YiVCUio
Back to top Go down
BetrayTheWorld
In Exile
avatar

Posts : 2665
Join date : 2013-04-04

Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 19 2013, 15:34

@Cavash wrote:
The unit might have Combat Drugs but because he doesn't have the Wargear he doesn't benefit from the special rule. The special rule does not say that they are confered to the Archon.
The Archon doesn't get the Drugs.

You're right, it doesn't say an Archon gets the drugs. It says the unit does. And the archon would be considered part of the unit. Obviously, this was written with a different edition of the rules in mind, and the fact that, aside from ICs, no unit can purchase combat drugs without every other model in the unit also doing so.

However, based on the new wording of 6th ed, and how ICs interact with joined units, the wording confers said ability between them because it essentially says, "A unit that contains combat drugs gets X benefit." For a unit to "contain combat drugs", not every model in the unit need have them. Based on this interpretation, an archon could also convey his combat drugs onto a unit of incubi, for example.
Back to top Go down
Shadows Revenge
Hierarch of Tactica
Shadows Revenge

Posts : 2587
Join date : 2011-08-10
Location : Bmore

Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 19 2013, 16:40

the problem is only certain USRs pass from unit to IC or IC to unit, Combat Drugs is not one of them. To get the Combat Drug special rule, you must have the Combat Drug wargear.

_________________
Status:
Usurping Kabal leadership for his Patriarch

Current List:
First 2k GSC List
Back to top Go down
DominicJ
Wych
avatar

Posts : 662
Join date : 2013-01-23

Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 19 2013, 17:16

So my Archon passes his drugs to his Incubi?
Of course not, that would be.....

_________________
The Cult of the bloody disaster
https://www.thedarkcity.net/t7466-cult-of-the-bloody-disaster
Back to top Go down
Shadows Revenge
Hierarch of Tactica
Shadows Revenge

Posts : 2587
Join date : 2011-08-10
Location : Bmore

Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 19 2013, 17:34

@DominicJ wrote:
So my Archon passes his drugs to his Incubi?
Of course not, that would be.....

No one shares in Commorragh!!!! Very Happy

_________________
Status:
Usurping Kabal leadership for his Patriarch

Current List:
First 2k GSC List
Back to top Go down
Cavash
Lord of the Chat
Cavash

Posts : 3237
Join date : 2012-04-15
Location : Stuck in an air vent spying on plotters

Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 20 2013, 01:05

Thank you Shadows and Dominic! I feel like saying otherwise is like trying to twist the rules to give you an advantage. The wargear confers the special rule. No wargear = no special rule. The Special rule is not one that is conferred to the IC or to the squad it's part of.
I understand what you're saying about the 'unit' part, but I think that that is wishful thinking.

_________________

Sharing the Love YiVCUio
Back to top Go down
BetrayTheWorld
In Exile
avatar

Posts : 2665
Join date : 2013-04-04

Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 20 2013, 23:56

Perhaps. But the line of defense I would use is this...the rules for Combat Drugs say that units that contain combat drugs roll on the chart, and that the result effects the unit for the rest of the game.

Either
A. It effects the entire unit, as it says,
or
B. My 10 wyches start the game with 10 pain tokens, if I roll that result(since we're handling it on a model by model basis, instead of conferring the bonus to the unit).

Based on the wording, it specifically uses the word unit so that B doesn't happen above. But the implications of using the word "unit" also mean that "A" above would stand true.
Back to top Go down
Cavash
Lord of the Chat
Cavash

Posts : 3237
Join date : 2012-04-15
Location : Stuck in an air vent spying on plotters

Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 22 2013, 13:43

This arguement was covered in the thread that was linked to you. There will be people that disagree with you and some people that agree with you. If you're playing against somebody and they let you do that then awesome! I know that nobody around where I am would allow that.
RAW, you might be able to do that, although it seems very unfair.
RAI, no. You cannot do that.

_________________

Sharing the Love YiVCUio
Back to top Go down
Timatron
Sybarite
Timatron

Posts : 443
Join date : 2013-03-12
Location : Brighton

Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 22 2013, 15:11

Not even RAW,if you think about it. Which units have combat drugs is determined at the point of writing the list, not during deployment of any particular game. I'm sure most players would agree that the word 'unit', as referred to in a Codex applies to each individual unit purchased from that codex and not the potential combinations of units that can be joined together during any particular battle.

jocolor
Back to top Go down
Shadows Revenge
Hierarch of Tactica
Shadows Revenge

Posts : 2587
Join date : 2011-08-10
Location : Bmore

Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 22 2013, 19:34

technically also a HQ w/ combat drugs (aka a succubus and an Archon) are technically a "unit" in their own terms before the battle starts. They only join another unit using their special rule "independent character"

So before the battle an HQ with the combat drug wargear and a unit of wyches with the combat drug wargear roll on the chart and get a pain token both are considered units, so both get a pain token.

Now an HQ without the combat drug wargear and a unit of wyches with the combat drug roll on the charge before the game. You get +1 attack. The Wyches are their own unit and get +1 attack. The Archon now joins them, and without the wargear giving him the special rule, he does not get +1 attack, even when joining them (as the combat drugs rule does not confer to the unit or to an attached IC)

Easy and simple. I dont understand how people cant get it tbh. If someone tried to pull that, I would ask to see where it says the combat drug special rule confers to the unit

_________________
Status:
Usurping Kabal leadership for his Patriarch

Current List:
First 2k GSC List
Back to top Go down
BetrayTheWorld
In Exile
avatar

Posts : 2665
Join date : 2013-04-04

Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 22 2013, 21:47

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
If someone tried to pull that, I would ask to see where it says the combat drug special rule confers to the unit

#1, Page 25 of the Dark Eldar Codex. It says that any UNIT that has combat drugs rolls on the chart, and has those effects for the remainder of the game.

#2, The rulebook's IC rules state that when they join a unit, they become a normal member of that unit for all rules purposes.

#3, The rulebook allows ICs to join with another unit prior to deployment by letting your opponent know beforehand.

In previous editions of the game, 2 & possibly 3 were not the case, and therefore prevented this from occurring. But with the changes to 6th edition, it makes the wording of combat drugs in the DE codex more important.

Was this intended? I seriously doubt it. But it IS the way it's written. I don't necessarily think it's unfair, either. This is just the sort of boost characters like Lelith needed to be more competitive. Of course, Incubi with combat drugs does sound sketchy, but thems the breaks. Unless GW FAQs it, that's how it is currently written.


EDIT: Also, unfair? lol, two words. Space MAHREENS!
Back to top Go down
Dra'al Nacht
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 103
Join date : 2012-12-09
Location : Perth, Australia

Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 23 2013, 01:06

1. A UNIT with combat drugs has the benefit of the Combat Drugs Special Rule. (DE Codex pg 25, paraphrased)

2. Unless specified, a UNIT's Special Rules are not conferred to an IC. (BRB pg 39, paraphrased)

I fail to see how 1. is permission to ignore the restriction of 2. (NOTE: They both refer to a UNIT)


Back to top Go down
Cavash
Lord of the Chat
Cavash

Posts : 3237
Join date : 2012-04-15
Location : Stuck in an air vent spying on plotters

Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 23 2013, 01:25

He's saying that because of another part of the BRB it says that IC starting with the unit count as the unit for purposes of rules and stuff.
I see where he's coming from and I understand how people could come to that conclusion.

_________________

Sharing the Love YiVCUio
Back to top Go down
BetrayTheWorld
In Exile
avatar

Posts : 2665
Join date : 2013-04-04

Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 23 2013, 02:21

@Dra'al Nacht wrote:
1. A UNIT with combat drugs has the benefit of the Combat Drugs Special Rule. (DE Codex pg 25, paraphrased)

2. Unless specified, a UNIT's Special Rules are not conferred to an IC. (BRB pg 39, paraphrased)

I fail to see how 1. is permission to ignore the restriction of 2. (NOTE: They both refer to a UNIT)

2. The special rule DOES say it effects the unit.

All special rules in the section you quoted, that effect multiple models in a unit are worded this way,

"If the unit contains at least one model with X ability, the unit is effected like this...."

The DE Codex describes the combat drugs rule very similar...

"All units that have combat drugs will benefit from the listed result for the entire game."

"Have combat drugs" is linguistically equivalent to "contains combat drugs". A unit can contain combat drugs without every model in the unit having them. Since it says they only need to have combat drugs in the unit, not that every model need have them, it would effect the entirety of the unit as defined by saying that the "Unit" benefits from the effects, rather than individual models.
Back to top Go down
facelessabsalom
Wych
facelessabsalom

Posts : 661
Join date : 2012-11-17
Location : Freefall

Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 23 2013, 08:50

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Was this intended? I seriously doubt it. But it IS the way it's written. I don't necessarily think it's unfair, either. This is just the sort of boost characters like Lelith needed to be more competitive. Of course, Incubi with combat drugs does sound sketchy, but thems the breaks. Unless GW FAQs it, that's how it is currently written.

This sounds just like any other 6th edition errors GW never thought about... Like, Lelith's special rules allowing her to man a quad-gun and toss grenades ignoreing armour saves... Even if it wasn't intended, people try to dig up rules that back this up and thus "bends" the rules to their advantage, to justify useless/UP units?

If you seriously doubt it was intended, then you understand the RAI and should play accordingly and acknowledge GW screwed up. Otherwise it is rule bending. If you seriously wants to play it as RAW because it would boost/give you advantage, I would see it as cheating.

GW screw up alot of things when they release new rules etc and don't bother releasing faqs to settle things, unfortunately. So if you know it is RAW was not intended, instead of "abusing" their errors and wait for a faq, you should play RAI.

If DE started sharing their drugs, everyone would be sticking their archon/succubus with Incubi, beasts or Grots. Or even with Eldar allies! Granted that the rules for drugs doesn't say "only units from this codex".
Back to top Go down
Saintspirit
Court of Cruelty
Saintspirit

Posts : 1002
Join date : 2011-05-19
Location : Sweden

Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 23 2013, 09:06

If you'd be so kind, do not flame. As it seems now, an answer as good as possible has already been told; now it just seems to go back and forth.
Locked.
/Your friendly mod SS

_________________
Kabal of the Shadow Phoenix - Background
Kabal of the Shadow Phoenix - Painting Blog
Modelled: 2753 pts
Painted: 2263pts

shamroll wrote:
Dang! I was hoping Tyranids followed the Pokemon naming idea. A big Carnifex running around just yelling "Carnifex! Carni-Carnifex!" followed by a squad of termagants all saying "Termagant" to each other.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




Sharing the Love Empty
PostSubject: Re: Sharing the Love   Sharing the Love I_icon_minitime

Back to top Go down
 
Sharing the Love
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

COMMORRAGH TACTICA

 :: Rules: Queries & Questions
-
Jump to: