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sgb69
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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 22 2013, 10:16

Quote :
Why do you do this to me?!

Because we feed on suffering?

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Talos
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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 22 2013, 10:44

I totally agree with Barking Agatha. Yes wyches became nerfed in 6th edition, hard. Wyches are just a pale shade of the former terror they used to be. Back in 5th they rocked the codex, now they are mehe.And no, terminators smash wyches, as do tactical marines. The wyches might succeed at pinning them in place for a turn, two if you are lucky.
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csjarrat
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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 22 2013, 11:42

only time my wyches do much in combat is if i tool the heka to the nines and put my tooled succubus/archon in there too. at this point you cant really say its the wyches doing the killing though, more just absorbing the bullets to keep the chars + champ rolling
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 22 2013, 11:58

In my experience wyches were never a beat face assault unit, they have always been a tar-pit. The big difference in 6th is wyches are 2pts more expensive as people always take haywire grenades now.

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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 22 2013, 12:08

Quote :
In my experience wyches were never a beat face assault unit, they have always been a tar-pit. The big difference in 6th is wyches are 2pts more expensive as people always take haywire grenades now.

That's how I see them. Even if fith ed I only used them to hold up other units until the Warriors had shot all the other priority targets to death. If you want something that's CC orientated to mash the faces of MEQ or TEQ you go for Grotesques or Incubi.

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doomseer11b
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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 22 2013, 15:07

I must agree on comments made on the grots and Urien. I read a blog about them and incorporated them into my lists. Have not turned back. Urien is amazing and the grots are just ridiculous. Something like 5 attacks each on the charge at S7???? And that's base. Adding in most SM need 5's to wound us. Yeah, is quickly turning into one of my favorite units. Also, be cuz of the high toughness. I put them in raiders and if situation, calls for it, will screen my more squishy wyches raider so they can make it to wherever they are going. AND the grots start the game with all 3 pain tokens!!! Sorry for the poor grammar I usually post from my phone and it sucks.

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 22 2013, 17:59

@Talos wrote:
I totally agree with Barking Agatha. Yes wyches became nerfed in 6th edition, hard. Wyches are just a pale shade of the former terror they used to be. Back in 5th they rocked the codex, now they are mehe.And no, terminators smash wyches, as do tactical marines. The wyches might succeed at pinning them in place for a turn, two if you are lucky.

Ah, thank you! I needed that. : )

@sgb69 wrote:
Because we feed on suffering?

Oh yes, I forgot. Sorry!

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 22 2013, 19:19

@Barking Agatha wrote:
@Shadows Revenge wrote:

Wyches- The grading is fair, but the reason why is not imho. Overwatch really doesnt effect them much,...what they are good at, tarpitting expensive units ...

I disagree with the disagreement. The thing about wyches in 5th edition was that they could quickly charge at anything, and between the agoniser and haywire grenades, usually kill it. Terminators? Charge them. A chaos defiler? Charge it. Big monster, chaos daemon lord thingie with super powers? Charge it. Unlimited charge account, you might say. They were safer in combat with anything than out where they could be shot at anyway.

Now they can still charge, but only from cover, and within 8", and with a Phantom Grenade Launcher, and in coordination with another unit to draw the overwatch, as long as the target they're charging doesn't have rapid fire weapons, or any flamer type weapons, or any 2+ saves, or any weapons that ignore cover, or numbers on their side, and with the understanding that it's a suicide mission for them anyway. And they still cost almost half again as much as kabalite warriors with the agoniser, PGL, and haywire grenades thrown in.

First off do wyches need another unit to draw overwatch??? a 3~4+ coversave is as good (or better) than their dodge, and with the opponent needing 6s to hit, your average 10 man bolter squad is only going to do .737~1.01 wounds to the squad (and thats without FNP)

Also lets talk about these "mythical" 5th ed Wyches. First off lets make the squad. Both edition use the same book, so the points are the same. Lets take 10 wyches w/ haywires w hekatrix w/ Agoniser. We are going to roll the Run drug for both, but the stats arent going to be skewed by much due to other drug results

First off against your basic MEQ squad:

Round 1:

5th Ed: 2.497 wounds we will round to two wounds
6th Ed: 2.497 wounds, we will round to two wounds

Attacks back:

1.500 wounds, we will round to two

Round 2:

5th Ed: 1.526 wounds, we will round to two
6th Ed: 1.526 wounds, we will round to two


Attacks back:

1.167 wounds, will round to 1

So after two rounds both squads have done 4 wounds, while taking 3 themselves. We could go on, but as you see they will slowly beat out the marine squad, but come out mauled all the same.

Now lets look at them against a Dreadnaught.

Round 1:

5th Ed: 1.66 hits, we will round it up to 2 hits. 33.20% chance of it being a pen, with atleast 1 glance. Roll on the chart and you have a low chance of blowing up the dread.

6th Ed:Atleast 4 glances, which result in it dying from HP before it even hits.

So in 6th wyches proven better at walker hunting as you no longer hit walkers only with 6s with grenades.

The only thing wyches do worse this edition is kill ermies, but their job was to tarpit them anyway, and just because you dont get that one static wound caused by an agoniser anymore, doesnt mean they still cant tarpit termies. Wyches have NEVER been good at assault, their stats just arent made for an assault unit.[/quote]

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 22 2013, 19:50

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
Also lets talk about these "mythical" 5th ed Wyches...

The only thing wyches do worse this edition is kill ermies, but their job was to tarpit them anyway, and just because you dont get that one static wound caused by an agoniser anymore, doesnt mean they still cant tarpit termies. Wyches have NEVER been good at assault, their stats just arent made for an assault unit.

I'm afraid I've upset you. It wasn't my intention, sorry.

I'm not going to do maths to argue with you. All I can tell you is that they are not mythical. I used them in 5th exactly as I say and they did okay. Not great and not always, but okay, and now they don't. Perhaps you're underestimating the effect of 4+ FNP, or the ability to re-roll failed 'to wounds', for example? And let's not forget the 'no retreat' rule, which usually meant that by the second round I had the numbers on my side.

My wyches could and did kill terminators, plague marines, dreadnoughts, chaos defilers, tau battlesuits, sternguard veterans, normal marines, and pretty much anything else. Now it's a hassle just to get them into a combat that they have an excellent chance of losing anyway. Of course I'm not going to convince you that they've gotten much worse if you don't believe they were that good to begin with. But I was there, I did it, and it happened.

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sgb69
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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 23 2013, 03:24

Thanks for being classy folks. I've seen less devolve into massive flame wars.

@ Shadows: I think a good chunk of it is that 6th edition made units other than Wyches better. The girls haven't lost much, but the dudes they want to charge have gained more. Then add in the general shift towards more infantry and more stuff that kills infantry as a result.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 23 2013, 14:21

@Barking Agatha wrote:
I'm afraid I've upset you. It wasn't my intention, sorry.

I'm not going to do maths to argue with you. All I can tell you is that they are not mythical. I used them in 5th exactly as I say and they did okay. Not great and not always, but okay, and now they don't. Perhaps you're underestimating the effect of 4+ FNP, or the ability to re-roll failed 'to wounds', for example? And let's not forget the 'no retreat' rule, which usually meant that by the second round I had the numbers on my side.

My wyches could and did kill terminators, plague marines, dreadnoughts, chaos defilers, tau battlesuits, sternguard veterans, normal marines, and pretty much anything else. Now it's a hassle just to get them into a combat that they have an excellent chance of losing anyway. Of course I'm not going to convince you that they've gotten much worse if you don't believe they were that good to begin with. But I was there, I did it, and it happened.

lol you havent upset me at all, Im just pointing out the flaw in your arguement. Wyches havent gotten worse, only better. In 5th it took forever to kill any walker due to needing 6s to hit. Now they do it in the first turn. Also combat drug results cant be counted on in mathhammer as you dont know what you will get, and with no changes in codex, the drugs have no effect on the numbers. The only change they really recieved was FNP being a 5+ but working against power weapons, which again puts them more as tarpit elite units due to the 4++ 5+ FNP that you didnt get last time against power weapons. While I think that change hurt things like Wracks who relied on FNP for their save, it really boosted Wyches effectiveness as a HQ bodyguard and tarpit.

Im sorry to say, there isnt much of a change to wyches at all. You can believe if you want too, but the math proves otherwise. This edition you have a decent way to dodge overwatch due to PGL and charging through cover with fleet, a longer charge threat range with the changes to fleet, and with the ability to challenge and pull high damage characters out, a decent life expentency of your wyches if you get them into combat. And yes, there is no change of their lifespan outside of combat except for maybe explosions being S4 instead of S3, but that was minor anyway because a wych squad not in combat is a dead wych squad anyway.

Also in the math No Retreat does not matter on marines as unless you won by 3, they most likely passed the armor save it caused.

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 23 2013, 16:52

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
Im sorry to say, there isnt much of a change to wyches at all. You can believe if you want too, but the math proves otherwise.

Maths are theory. I'm talking about two and a half years of real experience playing real games on real tables with real opponents, real dice and real miniatures, and then ten more months of my wyches getting slaughtered against the same real opponents, on the same real tables, with the same real dice, etc.

Overwatch hurt wyches. 'But you can charge from cover with a PGL...' yes, sure, but it wasn't there and now it is, and it affects them disproportionally compared to guys with armour, toughness, and /or numbers.

FNP going from 4+ to 5+ hurt wyches. 'But now they can save against power weapons...' What power weapons? I don't see any squads armed with all power weapons. I do see a lot of S6 or S8 weapons that you can't save against anyway because they instant-death you.

S4 explosions hurt wyches. We've gone from 2 or 3 dying in a crash to 2 or 3 surviving a crash.

Agonisers being AP3 hurt wyches. Characters used to fear the Hekatrix, now they gladly take her out in a challenge knowing that the only way she can hurt them is if they get unlucky and roll a 1.

The lack of 'no retreat' hurt wyches. Space Marines can face them confidently, knowing that if they lose, nothing happens, but if they win even once, the wyches are dead.

It isn't any one thing, it's a combination of a lot of little things.

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Dogmar
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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 23 2013, 16:56

Add to that the changes to moving transports and disembarking. It's pretty cool that we can now shoot and charge while still using fleet, but generally their effective range decreased.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 23 2013, 21:22

Actually I'll do some maths, why not?

It's 5th Edition and 10 Wyches charge at 10 Space Marines. The Wyches have Hydra Knives, a Shardnet and Impaler, and a Hekatrix with an agoniser, and are high on Adrenalight (+1 A). The space marines have a flamer guy and a sergeant with a fist. I'll round up on 0.5 and higher.

First Round: There is no Overwatch, so it's 10 v. 10. The Hydra Knives wych rolls a 3, so they get 38 attacks. 19 of those attacks hit, 6 of those hits wound, and 4 of those wounded marines pass their armour save. The Hekatrix gets 5 attacks. 3 of those attacks hit (rounding up on 0.5!), 2 of those hits wound (again), and there is no save. That is 4 beakies down.

5 Space Marines fight back with one attack each. 3 of those 5 attacks hit, 2 of those hits wound. The wyches save one through dodge... and then save the other one with FNP 4+ (because we're rounding up on 0.5, remember?) No wyches down. Last comes their Power Fist Sergeant, with only 1 Attack because we put the wych with the Shardnet and Impaler next to him. HIs attack hits (0.5 rounding up!), wounds... and ooh, is saved by dodge (0.5 rounding up).

Wyches 4, Beakies Nil

Losing the combat, the marines run and are easily caught by the wyches. Because they know no fear they are not destroyed, but there is the 'No Retreat' rule, so they have to pass 4 armour saves. Rounding up, they pass 3, and that's another beakie down.

Next Round: It's 10 Wyches v. 5 Marines (numbers favour the wyches)

Then it's 6th Edition, and the same 10 Wyches charge at the same 10 Space Marines under the same circumstances.

First there is Overwatch. The Space Marines get 18 rapid fire shots, 3 of which hit, 2 of which wound, and there is no save because they're AP5. The flamer rolls 2 hits, 1 wound, and again, there is no save. So right off the bat it's 7 Wyches v. 10 Space Marines.

The wyches get 26 Attacks, 13 of which hit, 4 of which wound. The marines pass 3 saves (because we're rounding up again, same as above). One Marine down. The Shardnet wych gets next to the Sergeant again, but he doesn't care because he's going to challenge the Hekatrix anyway, and so the Shardnet ends up doing nothing (because you can't lower attacks below a minimum of one). The Hekatrix gets 5 attacks and utterly whips Sarge. So, 2 Beakies down in total.

The Marines now get 8 attacks, 4 of which hit, 3 of which wound (rounding up). The wyches save 2 of those with dodge (rounding up) but not the third with FNP 5+ (rounding down under 0.5).

Wyches 2, Beakies 1

That doesn't send the space marines running, but they decide to flee anyway, because if the wyches fail to catch them they can shoot them to bits in their following turn. Fortunately the wyches do catch them and nothing happens -- the marines are unaffected.

Next Round: It's 6 Wyches v. 8 Marines (numbers favour the marines).

Am I forgetting something? Oh yes, the wyches get to shoot now before charging. Well they could always do that, it isn't as if they had to run in order to charge, or as if they've just noticed that they've had pistols in their hands all this time. But okay, here's a round of shooting:

The Wyches, minus the one with the hydra knives and the one with the shardnet and impaler, shoot their splinter pistols at the space marines. That is 8 shots, 4 of which hit, 2 of which wound. 1 space marine fails to save, leaving his squad out of charge range of the wyches miraculously not doing that. One wych throws a plasma grenade that scatters back onto her own squad, killing one more wych before Overwatch begins. So it's 9 wyches v. 9 marines before overwatch, and 6 wyches v. 9 marines at the beginning of the combat.

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sgb69
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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 23 2013, 23:10

The underlying current I'm getting here isn't "Wyches are bad this edition" so much as "The way I used to play the squad doesn't work anymore."

So... adapt?

Reading over your summary of the situation a few things become apparent.
1. The shardnet isn't a good piece of wargear to use against generic 1 atk mooks.
2. Charging into flamers kinda sucks.
3. Shelling out for an Agonizer is overkill against most sarges and ineffective against most HQs.
4. Charging into squads full of rapidfiring guns kinda sucks.

So, save some points, invest them in making your transport less likely to explode on entry, and take some steps to mitigate your challenge problems.

Wyches don't do exactly what they used to do. They're better at some things and the world they exist in is much more dangerous. This can be mitigated through on the tabletop play and decision making.

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2013, 01:09

@sgb69 wrote:
The underlying current I'm getting here isn't "Wyches are bad this edition" so much as "The way I used to play the squad army doesn't work anymore."

So... adapt?

Sure! And one way that you 'adapt' is by relying less on wyches (who are not as good now as they were) and more on kabalite warriors (who are much better now than they were before, and still cheaper as well). I never said 'wyches are bad this edition', I said 'wyches are not as good in this edition as they were in the one before'. And they aren't... hey, the maths prove it! : )

That being said, I think that maybe one squad or two of wyches in an army could be useful. Just don't expect them to do the bulk of the work as they used to do. But I am not believed when I say that yes, they really used to do that. I am told that it is a 'myth'. That is why i wrote the summary above, to show that it is not a myth and that I can prove it with maths as well.

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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2013, 01:47

The logic student in me wants to point out that all you proved with "maths" was that a squad kitted for 5th edition doesn't work well in 6th.

But yes, I'll concede the point that Wyches don't make a good backbone to any force. I've always used them as 1 or 2 "go trash that elite unit" squads, and perhaps that has colored my perception of them.


All this conversation really makes me want to proxy a Wyche heavy army for a couple of games. Not because it'd sway the argument, but to try to put some of these nifty ideas into practice.

Does anyone have a link to a Wyche heavy force that worked for them in 5th?

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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2013, 07:44

Could I ask why you have put the word 'maths' in quotes?

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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 24 2013, 09:04

Habit. Used to correcting it when it's used.

On reflection, you might be from the UK and that'd make it a language difference. Like the difference in usage between flashlight and torch.

Though, next time you make a point with mathhammer: it'll help your case to not skew the situation so badly because sometimes people will disregard a truthful fact if it's paired with an opinion.

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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 25 2013, 15:39

Ok, I ran through and took out the grades. I agree they were to subjective and caused a bit of a ruckus (kinda fun though). Up dated a few units with what i agreed with from the comments. Fixed lelith for the new FAQ. I will continue updating this of course as my opinion changes.

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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 26 2013, 13:05

@sgb69 wrote:
Though, next time you make a point with mathhammer: it'll help your case to not skew the situation so badly.

How did I do that?

Also, please don't correct my use of the word 'maths'. I'm sure it was unintended, but it's a bit condescending.

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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 26 2013, 15:42

Can we get this back on topic, please? He didn't mean it condescendingly, I'm sure. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 26 2013, 23:52

Sounds good. I'll refrain from doing so in the future, Agatha. It has been a heavy lit review week, so I've been more crabby than normal due to lack of sleep.

So... this review bloggy thingy.

The new version looks nifty. I'd love to see Mongoosedog's future work.

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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 27 2013, 04:59

My bad, I'm overly tetchy for no good reason.

Doing away with the grades is probably for the best. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Codex breakdown   Codex breakdown - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 27 2013, 05:20

Yeah. Truth.

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