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 DE Versus The IG Manticore

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Vertigo
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PostSubject: DE Versus The IG Manticore   DE Versus The IG Manticore I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 17 2013, 09:08

How does a DE army counter an IG army with 2-3 Manticores?

With most gaming tables consisting of enough terrain to hide at least 1-2 Manticores behind cover, I find it exceedingly difficult to destroy them. Standard tactics of repositioning are completely moot against Manticore lists, as the IG player can simply castle up with a myriad of Chimeras.

Each Manticore being able to indirect fire the span of the field, with a dead zone of only 24" (getting that close to the castled Chimeras does little good, as it'd force me to flatout, and therefore get zero shooting done, while putting myself in prime position to be glassed.) Each Manticore can fire a D3 number of STR 10 AP 4 Large blasts, these shots are also ordnance weapons, so they get to roll 2 dice to determine penetration (so basically negating the chance of glancing AV 11 on a one.) These weapons are also barrage- so direct hits negate any possible jink saves. Every turn of firing pretty much ensures that the manticores will each penetrate at least one vehicle/transport present upon the board- rendering ineffective it or dead the following turn; any exposed squads will simply become vaporized.

Every game I've played against Manticore IG has been an affair in which I simply pray for the Manticores to do minimal damage for their shooting phase- everything else feels completely out of my control. I've been thinking that the answer might lie in Eldar allies, a Wave Serpent could bring the STR 10 hits down to STR 8, and outflanking War-Walkers could potentially wreck them as well.

Other than that- I haven't the faintest clue of what to do.

Halp?
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Zanais
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PostSubject: Re: DE Versus The IG Manticore   DE Versus The IG Manticore I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 17 2013, 09:46

Why there is no jink save from Manticore? Barrage doesnt remove cover from jink as far as I know.

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Vertigo
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PostSubject: Re: DE Versus The IG Manticore   DE Versus The IG Manticore I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 17 2013, 10:03

Would a direct hit not negate a jink? As it would be a hit coming on directly onto the target?

If it does not then yay for me- but that still hardly saves me from all these STR 10 pie plates.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: DE Versus The IG Manticore   DE Versus The IG Manticore I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 17 2013, 10:39

The Jink cover save applies as long as you move. It's not dependent on the direction that the shot is coming from.

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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: DE Versus The IG Manticore   DE Versus The IG Manticore I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 17 2013, 13:47

Guard artilery is very powerful, but also very soft.
Cover saves from barrage are not that complicated, they simply count as coming from the centre of the blast, not the firer. If theres a wall between you and the blast, you still get cover.
If you turbo'ed. you still get cover.

Mech is easy to beat, you just need lots of AT, either haywire wyches or blasters.

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Vertigo
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PostSubject: Re: DE Versus The IG Manticore   DE Versus The IG Manticore I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 17 2013, 20:01

@DominicJ wrote:

Mech is easy to beat, you just need lots of AT, either haywire wyches or blasters.

The problem is that by the time I get to the artillery- a good chunk of my forces are already dead and I won't have enough to deal with/survive through their Plasma/Autocannon Vets and their Chimeras.

And due to the enemy castling- I can't get clear shots at the Manticores.

And yes- I already take copious amounts of AT.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: DE Versus The IG Manticore   DE Versus The IG Manticore I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 17 2013, 20:43

If the manticore is firing indirectly (i.e can't see it's target, or you are within 24" it doesn't subtract ballistic skill). That means it has a 33% chance of scoring a direct hit, and a 66% chance of scattering. On average it will scatter 7" which is seriously inaccurate. It might be S10, but due to it being AP4 single hit only has a 33% chance of destroying one of our transports. If that transports was moving that is reduced to 22% chance. If the transport was moving flat out it's further reduced to a 16.5% chance (though immobilised will count as wrecked but that's a soft crash). Also multiple barrage blasts from the same unit or weapon need to be placed so they are touching each other, meaning if the first blast misses the second one will be off course even if your opponent rolls a hit.

If going second I would deploy my warriors in cover outside their transports and spread my forces out to minimise the damage of that first volley. If he is hiding them they are going to be very inaccurate, if he isn't they will be vulnerable to lance fire on my turn.

By not starting your troops in their transports you are creating more threat saturation and will make it harder for him to decide what to shoot on his turn.

As for castling up, that gives you control of the board. This gives you a big advantage in objective based missions as he will have to push out later to claim objectives. Warriors in area terrain going to ground can survive an impressive amount of fire power, as long as it's not of the ignore cover nature and barrage weapons do not negate cover saves from area terrain.

Hope that helps. Smile

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Vertigo
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PostSubject: Re: DE Versus The IG Manticore   DE Versus The IG Manticore I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 17 2013, 20:48

@Mushkilla wrote:

Also multiple barrage blasts from the same unit or weapon need to be placed so they are touching each other, meaning if the first blast misses the second one will be off course even if your opponent rolls a hit

Interesting- so the blasts cannot be all placed within the same location?
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: DE Versus The IG Manticore   DE Versus The IG Manticore I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 17 2013, 20:53

@Vertigo wrote:
Interesting- so the blasts cannot be all placed within the same location?

I said they have to be place so they are touching/next each other and can only be placed overlapping each other if a hit is rolled. The rules are under "multiple barrages" on page of the 34 of the rule book. There's even a diagram. Smile

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