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Raneth
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PostSubject: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 19 2011, 11:55

Just an off thought:

- Wyches are both male and female.
- Wych command are invariably female.

What happens to males that excel? Do they get turned into Assassins, like with WHFB Dark Elves?

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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 19 2011, 12:33

And blood "BRIDES".....

are there no elite male wyches at all?
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Torpedo Vegas
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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 19 2011, 16:50

I think it comes from either
A) Males being to valuable as studs to risk in getting killed in higher level politics

Or

B) The high level males are called Blood Brides just like the female ones.

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Baron Tordeck
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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 19 2011, 17:05

With the amount of cloning and the overall society of the DE I can't see the males being "saved" as studs.

My though is that male Wychs become Incubi (or reavers/hellions more likely.)

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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 19 2011, 18:44

Quote :
My though is that male Wychs become Incubi (or reavers/hellions more likely.)

Or pilots or they die.

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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 19 2011, 19:34

According to fluff (end of first paragraph in Wych page) they actually are valued due to beeing... men, but rarely attain high rank...

I guess they are wanted by Wych cult to od... job and not-so wanted by spectators because they are NOT girls Wink.

And probably they often than not work with crits and pilot ships. Not sure if Wych Cults use Reaver Jetbikes and Skyboards (IMHO I don't see why Reavers and Hellions could not fit into Cults), but most of their pilots are also male.
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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 19 2011, 19:48

Considering the social status of Hellions according to the Codex, that might not be an attractive path to take for Joe the Average Wych. Reaver pilots at least are linked to the gladiator spectacles.

I like the Incubi suggestion though! Seeing as they're the equivalent of WHFB Executioners, also servants of Khaine, it might very well be the logical step to take for a male Wych. Or lose his life trying. Razz

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Baron Tordeck
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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 19 2011, 21:17

According to what I get from the fluff reavers and hellions are both cult members, with a bit of sibling rivalry between the twoI would warrant a guess that Males that achieve success become reavers while less successful, but surviving, become hellions.

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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 19 2011, 21:19

Another thing to consider- maybe they don't advance at all. They stay low ranked till they die.

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GrenAcid
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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 19 2011, 23:00

@up
In that case there would be no male wych at all.....de are abitious buch.

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Rangrok1k
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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 19 2011, 23:51

I was assuming they stayed low ranked, probably for more... perverted reasons.

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Spanna uv Komor-AAAGH!
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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 20 2011, 03:11

@Baron Tordeck wrote:
According to what I get from the fluff reavers and hellions are both cult members, with a bit of sibling rivalry between the twoI would warrant a guess that Males that achieve success become reavers while less successful, but surviving, become hellions.
I don't get that feel from the new Codex. It appears that Hellions and Reavers are entirely unrelated to Wychs(except occasionally taking in an escaping Wych) aside from also using Combat Drugs. In a White Dwarf interview with Phil Kelly(WD 370), he explicitly states that the Hellions no longer have anything to do with the Wych Cults, and the same article implies the Reavers are a competing group to both Hellions and Wyches.

The Codex says that male Eldar lose their ability to maintain flexibility and poise sooner than female Eldar. It might just be than being a Bloodbride or Succubus requires skill that male Wych just don't stay competitive long enough to acquire. Given what the Codex supplies as an explanation for why male Wyches are valued, I'd guess most Wyches are born into their Wych Cult. So the majority of male Wyches probably die devoted to the ideals of their Cult instead of fleeing the only life they know. For those who don't, I am sure any group on Commoragh would be happy to take in a warrior as skilled as a Wych. Be they Kabal, Hellion Gang, Incubus Shrine, or Reaver Team, a killer is a killer, and a Wych is one of the best.

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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 20 2011, 03:22

+1

I like that answer

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Aroshamash
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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 20 2011, 09:12

To me, the Reavers are merely a sub-Cult of the Wyches. However, given how meritocratic Commorrite society is, I just cannot see them holding Wyches back based on their gender. If they have the skill, they can attain the rank. They might not be able to hold the position for as long, given the earlier degeneration of tissue, but they wouldn't be held back.

Personally, I also see the term "Bloodbride" as merely a crude translation for whatever the actual DE term for a group of Heketarii is, in the same way "Succubi" are traditionally female figures. It's simply a convenient translation that gets across the necessary themes, but doesn't do it completely accurately.

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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 20 2011, 15:21

I'd also like to point out that in the very beginning of the codex, it flat out says Dark Eldar don't give much attention to sexes. It is the individual's ability that matters.
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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 20 2011, 16:35

The codex does mention that the Wych Cult arenas have Reaver tracks so I'd quess Reavers are a subset of the Wytches. Hellions on the other hand are separate. I'd quess it's possible, if rare, for a male Wych to become a "hekator" (male hekatrix) and therefore also be a blood"bride" (sinc ebloodbrides are an alite unit consisting of hekatrixes).

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 20 2011, 17:43

Xel wrote:
I'd also like to point out that in the very beginning of the codex, it flat out says Dark Eldar don't give much attention to sexes. It is the individual's ability that matters.

Which is exactly why I thought the absence of male Wych leaders was so strange!

Spanna wrote:
I don't get that feel from the new Codex. It appears that Hellions and Reavers are entirely unrelated to Wychs(except occasionally taking in an escaping Wych) aside from also using Combat Drugs. In a White Dwarf interview with Phil Kelly(WD 370), he explicitly states that the Hellions no longer have anything to do with the Wych Cults, and the same article implies the Reavers are a competing group to both Hellions and Wyches.

Yeah I gathered as much, as well.

Spanna wrote:
The Codex says that male Eldar lose their ability to maintain flexibility and poise sooner than female Eldar.

Didn't find this bit.

It's so weird. The Wych entry just says: "Male Wyches ensure that their Wych Cult is never wanting for strong offspring; they are valued, but rarely attain high rank." As Gren pointed out earlier, that doesn't seem nearly satisfying enough for individuals as ambitious as the DE.

Guess I'm going to have to ask Phil Kelly himself... Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 20 2011, 19:26

Sidenote, How many women do you think work in GW? I think you may find your answer there.

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Spanna uv Komor-AAAGH!
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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 20 2011, 21:58

@Raneth wrote:
Spanna wrote:
The Codex says that male Eldar lose their ability to maintain flexibility and poise sooner than female Eldar.

Didn't find this bit.

It's so weird. The Wych entry just says: "Male Wyches ensure that their Wych Cult is never wanting for strong offspring; they are valued, but rarely attain high rank." As Gren pointed out earlier, that doesn't seem nearly satisfying enough for individuals as ambitious as the DE.

Guess I'm going to have to ask Phil Kelly himself... Laughing
I misread the sentence just above the one you quoted: "...for females find it easier to attain the pinnacle of poise and grace their craft demands" Still, the point is the same. Male Eldar usually don't cut it as the more strenuous levels of the Wych Cult.

I think the ambition thing isn't as big a problem as you feel for one reason: Incubi. In the Incubi shrines, we have precedent for Dark Eldar encouraging the squelching of ambition to focus on martial and physical perfection. The Wyches probably find it much easier to suppress their ambition than the Incubi, since male Wyches could bask in the adolation and bloodlust of the crowds cheering them on. They have a direct line of consequences from physical skill to the respect/envy/support of others. Political ambition does not, and is probably not encouraged in the Cults.

And if you still aren't convinced, remember that Dark Eldar are still Eldar. The Paths are restrictive craftworld concepts, but the basic idea of focusing on martial skill to the exclusion of everything else seems to come naturally to Eldar.

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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 10:05

@Spanna uv Komor-AAAGH! wrote:

And if you still aren't convinced, remember that Dark Eldar are still Eldar. The Paths are restrictive craftworld concepts, but the basic idea of focusing on martial skill to the exclusion of everything else seems to come naturally to Eldar.

or indeed becoming hyper-fixated on anything seems to be pretty ingrained in the whole Eldar psyche.

the Eldar background is steeped in the concept of "paths" where they spend long years fixated on a single goal - be it martial or artistic.

having a good read at the DE codex yesterday gave me the feel that DE society still has this concept at its heart. all be it in a skewed way.

each element of the DE focuses there drive and ambition to that one "path". The wyches will be driven to be the "perfect" wych, the Reavers chase the goal of that fullspeed decapitation for their ultimate rush, the scourges seek repeated modification to be the best messengers, the beastmasters ultimate goal is control with a glare, and so on. even the lowliest of kabalites still have the drive to be the perfect warrior and thus in the meritocrastic kabals climb the ladder of success.

back to the male wych point. it looks like they may indeed not have the natural ability to "attain the pinnacle of poise and grace their craft demands", but they will still have the drive to be the best fighter they can be. some may go to the incubi shrines to try and hone the art of killing further, or to challenge themselves. we are told that the incubi gain their new recruits from those that come to the shrines looking for the challenge. the males may just continue as a "lowly" wych, having achieved their best. after all there are other rewards to be had by being a successful male wych. "Male Wyches ensure that their Wych Cult is never wanting for strong offspring" - shows a certain reward for achieving this. i think the better the ability the male wych displays, the better his chances of being courted for breeding. the chance to release some of those pent up hormones through another means is surely enticing to the hedonistic aspect of the Dark Eldar.
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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 11:37

I think we shouldn't forget, that being a Wych or Kabalite is almost the top of DE society. Only the best will become wych and already get great fame and high status.
So they might not be King but nobility and while DE are ambitious they are above all hedonistic. So why shouldn't a male DE settle for low rank wych, enjoy a good life without risk of being backstabbed. And DE are intelligent, so if they know, they don't have what it takes to be a leader they don't die trying.

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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 12:09

The Wych Cults are meritocratic though, so you achieve rank purely through skill. If you're good enough, you attain the fame and demand for performances increases. No Wych would hold themselves back so as to stay at a lower rank.

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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 13:07

yes, but what my last post was trying to suggeest is that for male wyches they perhaps gain a reputation and standing in other....areas.... outwith the arena.
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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 17:40

@Tiri Rana wrote:
I think we shouldn't forget, that being a Wych or Kabalite is almost the top of DE society. Only the best will become wych and already get great fame and high status.

Wow. Good catch.

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PostSubject: Re: LOST: Wych guys   LOST: Wych guys I_icon_minitimeWed Jun 22 2011, 00:27

@Tiri Rana wrote:
I think we shouldn't forget, that being a Wych or Kabalite is almost the top of DE society. Only the best will become wych and already get great fame and high status.
So they might not be King but nobility and while DE are ambitious they are above all hedonistic. So why shouldn't a male DE settle for low rank wych, enjoy a good life without risk of being backstabbed. And DE are intelligent, so if they know, they don't have what it takes to be a leader they don't die trying.
For some of them yes this could work fine.

As for "paths" eldar are extremists to the core if you doo somthing dive deep in it....but craftworlders do this as challage to improve them, once they master somthing they move on or stay as exarch.....dark eldars do so cuz they love what they doing, btw exarchs are kinda like DE....maybe thats why other eldars pity them?

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