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Niiai
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PostSubject: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 08 2013, 12:22

After notecing my beast pack was not the death of my opponents as I wished it was I am wondering how the inqcubi are? 3+ armour save seems sweet. How should they the delivered and how many should you bring?

Using a small number fits with the msu DE style. Putting them in a big transport just means will loose your ride at the first oppertunaty. Do they need an arcon with grenades? Or can you use a haemy? Or do you even need baby sitters?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 08 2013, 12:31

4 Incubi (incl Klaivex) plus Archon in a Venom is a fairly normal build. The Archon is there for grenades and is often equipped with a Huskblade and Solutrap. The Klaivex is there to take challenges.

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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 08 2013, 12:35

Run them with an archon with PGL and a Klaivex with a bloodstone.

Klaivex can then flamer the marines to soften them up, and take a challenge if needed. I normally put them in a venom with an archon small squad size mean you should win the combat in your opponents turn meaning they won't get shot at.
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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 08 2013, 15:05

Someone has a very good incubi tactica, and advises 10 in a raider.
4 with a klaivex and an Archon in a venom worked well for me last week, I've swapped an Incubi for a Succubus for this week.

Plan a larger unit in future, your talking 300 points for ten in a raider, and they make a space marine squad in a rhino diced steak

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 08 2013, 15:09

@DominicJ wrote:
Someone has a very good incubi tactica, and advises 10 in a raider.
4 with a klaivex and an Archon in a venom worked well for me last week, I've swapped an Incubi for a Succubus for this week.

Plan a larger unit in future, your talking 300 points for ten in a raider, and they make a space marine squad in a rhino diced steak

The problem with 10 Incubi is that they are too good and tend to kill stuff off on the charge, leaving them standing around with huge Bullseyes on their chests in the opponents turn. A smaller unit is still likely to win combat but not on the charge, leaving them safe from return fire.

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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 08 2013, 16:09

That was covered.
I'm looking for it now, but having no luck.
I think the arguement was very much a HQless or a secondary deathstar, or just a unit that could be active all game.
Its not unusual for a 5 man incubi squad to be a 3 man after a turn or two of fighting, at which point its too small to be effective.
A ten man squad can wipe out a marine squad, take some fire, and go around picking off other weakened squads

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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 08 2013, 16:18


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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 08 2013, 16:27

@DominicJ wrote:
https://www.thedarkcity.net/t2225-understanding-incubi-misconceptions-and-results?highlight=incubi

Found it

Just had a brief skim read of that article. It's good but it's now out of date. The majority of the problems caused to Incubi were from Fist-toting sergeants. Who are now dead long before they get to hit back due to being challenged and butchered mercilessly. I still maintain that 10 is too big. There's an argument that, with overwatch, 5 is now too small. Overwatch is less of an issue for Incubi than it is for most of our other units though, due to 3+ armour.

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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 08 2013, 17:24

9 + Archon is always good. Raider is important for movement shenanigans that Venoms can't do. Has enough bodies to survive Overwatch and still make a dent without carving through on the first round of combat. Can stand up to GKT assaults and eventually come out on top. Any fewer and it wouldn't work well.

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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 08 2013, 17:58

Yes and no,
The fist is gone, but.

My typical tactical squad had a plasma, a rocket and 8 bolters
Overwatch, they get a kill, 1.009 of one
Four surviving incubi kill 4 marines,
And Six marines kill .667 Incubi

1.675 to 4 and the incubi appear to be winning, and are, but next turn, its 2.667 to 0.37

Only three incubi now, who kill all but one marine, who dies in the fourth round of fighting.
(Actually, to get really anal, its 2.688 survive 5 rounds of combat)

Assuming you charged your turn two, its now their turn 4, and you have 2.688 incubi left alive, who will be out of position and will have, maybe, earnt their points back, or a little better, one round of shooting will finish them.

I think its a valid option, although I havent tried it yet

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Hijallo
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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 08 2013, 19:04

i'd prefer larget units. Incubi are singular unit which came with some resilence, and they're worth every single point they cost.

Their vehicle wouldn't shoot much anyway, they probably will be on flat out turn1 and wrecked turn2, delivering the incubi to their target. You already paid for archon with PGL and probably Huskblade, it's pointless to try squeeze couple dozens of points by having small squad of incubi. 7-8 is optimal, Klaivex may be overlooked (usally they're murdering the unit they charge anyway, and if they should come into something tough there're dirty ways to avoid Archon being challenge-locked).

Sacrificial 'i'm the walking pain token' Haemo also helps, but investing so many points in a single squad started to appear expensive. could cut some points using 3-men wracks squads in venoms as troops.
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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 09 2013, 07:28

Big squads I think are too expensive, and generally overkill against most targets. 4-6 with an Archon (and if you have points a Kliavex to take challenges) should kill most MEQ dead.

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Hijallo
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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 09 2013, 11:08

There's no way you can keep that squad cheap. If you want cheapness, do not take them. You already invested more then 150 pts into Archon to support them.

Oh don't think 9 with fully outfitted Klaivex is quite mandatory, but 7-8 is usally quite enough to fight even tough opponents. They could have Paladins taken down back in the 5ed. With nerf of FC they couldn't, but you will most likely not see them anymore, so it isn't a big difference.
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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 09 2013, 15:42

The problem with 10 or 9 plus an archon is that they to all intents and purposes have a massive 'shoot me' sign on them as they will be very high on your opponents target priority. 3+ is great, but they are still only T3 so they will go down pretty easily to a torrent of small arms, unless you are fortunate enough to have some LOS blocking cover to hide behind that is in range of the unit(s) you want them to charge.

5 is less threatening, and is less of a loss if they do come under heavy fire.
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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 09 2013, 16:32

They already have that tag "shoot me", no matter the size, because they accompany your Warlord. Taking a big units incrases chance of his survival, even T3 with 3+ and FNP can withstand small arms fire.
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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 09 2013, 17:16

I would argue that in this case unit size offers diminishing returns where survivability is concerned.

4 incubi inc. klavex and Archon (HB, ST, SF, CD, PGL) = 273 points (ignoring transport as we are looking at the units survivability)

The incubi take on average 33.75 bolter shots to kill, plus 6 to expect to drop the shadow field and another 4.5 to finish the Archon off for a total of 44.25 bolter shots.

9 incubi inc. klavex and Archon (HB, ST, SF, CD, PGL) and Haemie (for the fnp, gives token but doesnt ride with them) = 411 points (again ignoring the transport)

Incubi take 91.125 bolter shots to kill. Again, 6 to expect to drop the shadow field and another 4.5 to finish the Archon off for a total of 101.625 bolter shots.

Initially this looks pretty good. The large squad with a pain token cost much less than double the smaller squad and can take more than double the bolter shots. But therein lies the problem.

When it comes to killing incubi, they are like smurfs with lower toughness. Given the inevitable prevalence of smurfs in pretty much any meta, most opponents will include things that can reliably kill them. The resilience of the larger unit against small arms encourages the use of such heavier fire.

Not to mention that they will have to travel in a raider rather than a venom and will thus be harder to keep out of line of sight.
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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 09 2013, 19:22

Survivability is a very poor reason to do anything with Deldar.
The only genuinely survivable kit we have are fliers, Cronos/Talos, and maybe grots, but all of them are nothing special in the grand scheme of things.

What no one seems to have mentioned yet, is points.
Those additional incubi are 110 points. Thats quite a bit at 1800pts, and a huge amount at 1200pts.
313 is just about affordable at 1200pts, but 428 is really pushing it.

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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 09 2013, 19:35

Again. You NEED an Archon with PGL to support them, to provide those close combat guys with assault grenades they needed.

To synergize with Incubi, this Archon needs Huskblade, no other AP2 weapons avaliable sorry =(

So you'll end up spending ~150 points on an archon, regardless of size of squad. He'll also be your warlord unless you inclube another Ld10 character.

Transport's price is constant too. You don't need Venom coz you probably would end up flying toward the enemy on flat out, Raider is better for that purpose (EA anyone?).

So you already paid 210 points which will be targeted by enemy fire.

Lesser the number of Incubi, lesser the lifetime of your Archon, lesser the impact they'll deliver. When you have a squad of 4 and 4 incubi are dead, your Archon is alone in the field.

When you have a squad of 7, after 4 deaths you still have archon and squad of 3, and that is formidable treat which could destroy squads of 7-8 gay hunters on charge.

and, again, those guys are quite survivable compared to our other troopers. Especially if they manage to find their prey early and grab pain token.

TL;DR: Large squads of Incubi are better then smallers ones
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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 09 2013, 19:46

@Hijallo wrote:
Paladins.

Had a local GK player who was pretty obnoxious with his paladins. All that wound allocation on top of Feel No Pain, Draigo, and those freaking Nemesis Force Halberds. Couldn't beat the freaking thing for months.

Then I stopped trying to meet his deathstar head on and killed everything else in the army instead. At that point our games usually turned into "Paladins take one objective, DE take the rest." No real change to my list. Just a different set of tactics on the table.

Of course, Kill Points was an auto-loss.


Anyway, back on topic.


Though making your points back isn't an end all be all or even a good idea to play by, it can be useful here when we're talking about attrition.

313 (Archon, upgrades, 4 Incubi, Venom) points needs to kill one unit and main another to make their points back.

110 + 65 (5 Incubi) just needs to maim one unit in order to be ahead on attrition.

169 + 60 to 75 (7 Incubi and a Klaivex) needs to maim one squad and will often be ahead on points once they do. Then, they can affect something else on the table. 8 and 9 Incubi need to nail two to be ahead of the curve.

The elephant in the room is then Transports and getting into position.

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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 09 2013, 19:47

I really do challenge that.

Its "nice" to go first, but only dedicated assault squads are going to do anything, even going first, a full squad of assault marines will be lucky to kill three incubi.
Sure, a PGL is cheap compared to three incubi, but how often are you people charging combat troops in cover?

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sgb69
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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 09 2013, 19:51

@Hijallo wrote:
To synergize with Incubi, this Archon needs Huskblade, no other AP2 weapons avaliable sorry =(

So you'll end up spending ~150 points on an archon, regardless of size of squad. He'll also be your warlord unless you inclube another Ld10 character.

I think the cheapest escourt archon I can come up with is 100 points. Archon, PGL, Power Axe. It'd require a Klaivex and special positioning, but it could be done.

And I'm in Dominic's boat with regards to not putting an archon with incubi. I'd rather put my HQs in troop units like Wyches or Wracks in order to be more certain of taking an objective.

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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 09 2013, 20:01

Power axe on archon? Heresy! Smile You loose Ini 7, better just give him venom blade. This archon will do more with poison, 'cuz he'll have the occasion to strike Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 09 2013, 21:23

I used to love my 9 man squad of Incubi w/ a Haemi. Unfortunately, I found them rather effective, but easy to avoid. You can usually get one, maybe two units over the game...But they arent that difficult to avoid

Recently, I have started using 4 incubi with a klaivex and a succubus in a Venom. I play a very 'shooty' army, and the incubi squad does well to deal with deep strikers and such
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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 09 2013, 21:41

Yeah but if one of those if the enemy deathstar, or even just two good sized tactical squads, they are paid for.

So far, mine exist as counter attackers / finisher offers, for which four and an archon is sufficient and all points allow.

Once I'm up to 1800pts, I'm definatly considering a squad of ten in a raider as an independant hunter killer squadron
Thats sick, 290pts!!!.
A little more if you want the higher LD (you probably do)

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PostSubject: Re: Inqcubi: How to transport and how many?   Inqcubi: How to transport and how many? I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 09 2013, 21:44

There are few deathstars that I'd want to throw Incubi at, I suppose
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