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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: 1850 All comers list   1850 All comers list I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06 2013, 01:29

THIS LIST HAS BEEN MODIFIED AND IS NO LONGER ACCURATE. ALTERNATE LIST IN POST BELOW.
I've kept this post the same without editing for reference purposes.

HQ
1 Duke Sliscus 150
1 Haemonculus Ancient Crucible of Malediction, Soul-trap, Power Weapon 120
1 Haemonculus Dark Gate, Soul Trap, Power Weapon 95
1 Haemonculus Shattershard, Soul Trap, Venom Blade 80

Elites
3 Hekatrix Bloodbrides Haywire Grenades, Razorflail, Syren, Agonizer, PGL 95
4 Hekatrix Bloodbrides Haywire Grenades, Razorflail, Syren, Agonizer 100
4 Hekatrix Bloodbrides Haywire Grenades, Razorflail, Syren, Agonizer 100

Troops
5 Wyches Haywire Grenades 60
5 Wyches 50
5 Wyches 50
5 Wyches 50
5 Wyches 50
5 Wyches 50

Heavy Support
1 Ravager Night Shield 115
1 Ravager Night Shield 115
1 Ravager Night Shield 115

Dedicated Transports
1 Venom Splinter Cannon 65
1 Venom Splinter Cannon 65
1 Venom Splinter Cannon 65
1 Venom Splinter Cannon 65
1 Venom Splinter Cannon 65
1 Venom Splinter Cannon 65
1 Venom Splinter Cannon 65
Roster Total: 1850

Initial Deployment:
3x Ravagers
5x units of wyches (3 in venoms)

Reserves for deep strike:
Unit 1: Sliscus, Homey Ancient, 3 Bloodbrides in venom.
Unit 2: Homey, 4 bloodbrides in venom
Unit 3: Homey, 4 bloodbrides in venom
Unit 4: 4 Wyches with haywire grenades in venom.

Anyone here tried a list like this? Low troops per unit to maximize the number of venom's you could field/deep strike? If so, how did it fare, and what do you think of my list?[u]


Last edited by BetrayTheWorld on Tue Apr 09 2013, 21:44; edited 2 times in total
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Archon Farath Mure
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 All comers list   1850 All comers list I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06 2013, 04:52

All of those wyches want haywire grenades. Otherwise, it looks like an entertaining list worthy of trial.

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(11/5/2013: A few things have been added to the Kabal's fluff, most notably shifting their base of operations into the Webway, sort of, and adding an alliance with the Alpha Legion, or at least a few heads of the hydra.)
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 All comers list   1850 All comers list I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06 2013, 05:59

@Archon Farath Mure wrote:
All of those wyches want haywire grenades. Otherwise, it looks like an entertaining list worthy of trial.

And I want to give them those haywire grenades! Unfortunately, I can't think of anywhere else to trim any fat. I'm certainly open to suggestions.

I could drop 1 venom, give my wyches nades, upgrade the ancient's power weapon to an agonizer, and upgrade the homey's venom blade to a power weapon. Thoughts?

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Archon Farath Mure
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 All comers list   1850 All comers list I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06 2013, 07:58

Hm. Well, the Crucible of Malediction is rather underwhelming, so you can drop that without losing much. The Dark Gate isn't that bad, but it costs much more than I'd like to spend on a one shot, short ranged weapon that lacks an AP altogether. Liquifiers are pretty good though, as is the Shattershard. Haemies don't fight very well, so the Soul Traps are unnecessary.
Venom blades are usually better than a power weapon because axes detract from one of our key strengths (less of a problem on a haemie, and I know of an Ancient build I'd like to try eventually that would involve one,) and the rest have the huskblade's strength problem coupled with a decided lack of its advantages. They also cost more than the venom blade.
Dropping the Crucible, the Dark Gate, the Soul Traps on the regular Haemies, and downgrading the power weapon on one to a venom blade should free up enough points to give the wyches haywire grenades, reducing the problem presented by your lack of AT. After that, look into getting PGLs on the other Hekatrix squads and Liquifiers on the Haemonculi.

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"Let the vermin burn. We shall drink deep of their screams this night." Archon Farath Müre, High Archon of the Kabal of the Consuming Flame
(11/5/2013: A few things have been added to the Kabal's fluff, most notably shifting their base of operations into the Webway, sort of, and adding an alliance with the Alpha Legion, or at least a few heads of the hydra.)
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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 All comers list   1850 All comers list I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06 2013, 08:52

Given you have three Ravagers, you can probably get away with not having them. To be fair, I've found them very hit and miss. My most recent game the enemy had one dreadnought, turn one, my second ravager blew it to pieces. One of my first games, turn two, I assaulted two tanks and blew them up.

Personally, I wouldnt keep anything in reserve.

Venomspam is brutal.
I also prefer the hydras to the razors, you can get half a razor flail effect through drugs.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 All comers list   1850 All comers list I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06 2013, 09:25

@Archon Farath Mure wrote:
Hm. Well, the Crucible of Malediction is rather underwhelming, so you can drop that without losing much. The Dark Gate isn't that bad, but it costs much more than I'd like to spend on a one shot, short ranged weapon that lacks an AP altogether. Liquifiers are pretty good though, as is the Shattershard. Haemies don't fight very well, so the Soul Traps are unnecessary.
Venom blades are usually better than a power weapon because axes detract from one of our key strengths (less of a problem on a haemie, and I know of an Ancient build I'd like to try eventually that would involve one,) and the rest have the huskblade's strength problem coupled with a decided lack of its advantages. They also cost more than the venom blade.
Dropping the Crucible, the Dark Gate, the Soul Traps on the regular Haemies, and downgrading the power weapon on one to a venom blade should free up enough points to give the wyches haywire grenades, reducing the problem presented by your lack of AT. After that, look into getting PGLs on the other Hekatrix squads and Liquifiers on the Haemonculi.

All of this sort of goes against the entire idea of the list. I know you feel the one-shot items are underwhelming, but this is how they're being used:

All of the homeys wielding them are being deep striked in on vemons using sliscus ability, which allows them to disembark and use the one-shot items the same turn they arrive from deep strike. I selected those particular items because those are the items that have the best chance to kill MCs and ICs. If/When they DO kill an IC or MC in the first turn they arrive, they'll immediately fill the soul-trap, doubling their strength and making that power weapon useful. Also, they wouldn't be kitted with axes, probably. Per the book, a knife is sufficient modeling to give someone a power sword.

I hear people talk about crucible being underwhelmbing, but consider it this way: It's an average of a 9-10" bubble in which the BEST chance an enemy psycher has, is that they will die 18% of the time you pop it with them inside the bubble(20 points for an 18% chance to oneshot eldrad w/no save is worth it. Ask any poker player). That's against leadership 10, and it only gets better from there. If you're facing nids, you can pop it with 2-4 synapse creatures in it easily with the right positioning. And that's where the deep striking comes in. You're leveraging the deep strikes to get good position to pop the crucible, DG, and SS. And for every one that works, you pop a soul into your soul traps.

I agree that looking at the range of crucible in a normal game style, and the ease at which it's saved against makes it seem like it's not worth it. The thing is, it's a positioning weapon. And if you use deep strike to gain that positioning, you can actually do a ton of damage to the enemy if/when it works. 1 in 6 chance to instagib that hive tyrant and every other synapse nid in a 10" bubble for 20 points? Yes please.

Now, against other armies who end up with no psychers at all? Ok, so you wasted 20 points. But in an all comers list, that 20 points will be worth it when you're facing something like nids or eldar with a seer council.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 All comers list   1850 All comers list I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 09 2013, 21:38

Ok, moved some things around a bit for more venom spam. 9 Venoms in total now, swapped out the naked Wyches for 3 man squads of naked Wracks. All HQs, bloodbrides, and haywire wyches will enter with their venoms by deep strike. Initial deployment on the table will be 3 ravagers, and 5 wrack-filled venoms.

HQ
1 Duke Sliscus 150
1 Haemonculus Crucible of Malediction, Soul-trap, Power weapon 90
1 Haemonculus Dark Gate, Soul-trap, Power weapon 95
1 Haemonculus Shattershard, Soul-trap, Venom Blade 80

Elites
3 Hekatrix Bloodbrides HWG, Razorflail, Syren, Agonizer, PGL 95
4 Hekatrix Bloodbrides HWG, Razorflail, Syren, Agonizer 100
4 Hekatrix Bloodbrides HWG, Razorflail, Syren, Agonizer 100

Troops
3 Wracks 30
3 Wracks 30
3 Wracks 30
3 Wracks 30
3 Wracks 30
5 Wyches Haywire Grenades 60

Heavy Support
1 Ravager Night Shield 115
1 Ravager Night Shield 115
1 Ravager Night Shield 115

Dedicated Transports
1 Venom Splinter Cannon 65
1 Venom Splinter Cannon 65
1 Venom Splinter Cannon 65
1 Venom Splinter Cannon 65
1 Venom Splinter Cannon 65
1 Venom Splinter Cannon 65
1 Venom Splinter Cannon 65
1 Venom Splinter Cannon 65
1 Venom Splinter Cannon 65
9 Venoms total.
Roster Total: 1850
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 All comers list   1850 All comers list I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 11 2013, 14:30

so your idea is quite interesting, if not gimicky... I would say try it out, see how it goes, and roll with it from there.

My one question is why such small bloodbrides units??? they arent going to do much damage. Why not combine atleast two together, and throw the remaining haemie that losses out of a transport with some wracks??? that way you can atleast fall back on some combat goodness if your one shot plan fails.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 All comers list   1850 All comers list I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 11 2013, 15:51

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
so your idea is quite interesting, if not gimicky... I would say try it out, see how it goes, and roll with it from there.

My one question is why such small bloodbrides units??? they arent going to do much damage. Why not combine atleast two together, and throw the remaining haemie that losses out of a transport with some wracks??? that way you can atleast fall back on some combat goodness if your one shot plan fails.

That's certainly something to consider, however, it has further implications. The first being, this list is currently fine-tuned for using the deep strike rules to maximum effect. If I combined 2 BBs into 1, 1 of the deep strike units would have to not be deep strike any more due to the total number of units in my army. I could do it, and plan not to deep strike the haywire wyches. I'd also be losing a Syren with an agonizer.

It's been my experience that outside of hordes and certain xenos armies, the agonizer wyches do most of the killing in a unit. They don't lack there, as they will have an agonizer Syren with 5 attacks on the charge in each unit. Against hordes, the razorflails will be delivering 4 attacks per turn on the charge, all of which get to reroll to hit and wound. Then of course, the remaining get their 4 attacks on the charge. So even though they're small, on the charge they're generating 17 CC attacks from the wyches, and 4 from the homey, for 21 attacks total.

The smaller bride unit actually generates 22 by replacing a base bride with sliscus.

One other thing of note that I was thinking about. It may actually be better for me to go with power axes on the homeys, because if the plan succeeds, and they fill their soul-trap before charging, they'll basically have 4 power fist attacks that are ID against T4, and AP 2.

Doubled S from soul-trap = 6
+1 S from furious charge = 7
+1 S from the axe = 8

Of course, this makes their attacks happen on initiative 1 instead of 4 when most space marines attack. What are your thoughts there? Go for the power sword and just deal with having an effective 7S, or go for the axe with 8S?
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