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 DE vs. the new Tau

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 04 2013, 15:24

Thats very solid AA for the cost. If anything though id say thats good for DE since game environments with heavy tau presence might shift away from flyers.. dragons excepted.
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Tony Spectacular
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 05 2013, 00:19

Psh. Getting into assault with Wyches (or Grotesques) is no bother at all. Multiple Raiders with sails + flat out + Haem on board = at least 2/3 of each squad is getting there turn 2. Especially with the downrange threat of 3 Ravagers + 2 units of Splinterborn, not to mention the other Venoms. Target saturation + redundancy = assaulty goodness. Tie them up, and all of that pretty longrange dakka goes away, letting the Taloi creep in for the finish.

I'm not scared.*

*This statement is made with the full confidence of an Arcon who has yet to face new Tau. Salt is required.

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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 05 2013, 01:01

@Dogmar wrote:
...
The shared overwatch rule has a big flaw, at least in the current German wording (we had a debate with the store owner about the rule, hence I got to see part of the dex). Basically it says this:

If a unit is charged other units that are not charged but are within 6" of the attacked unit may fire overwatch at the attacker. Any unit may still only fire overwatch ONCE.

Same wording in the English codex, I read it today. It is called supporting fire. Begs the question though, does this mean that if half a unit is within 6" of the charged unit, that only those models ( the half within 6") can fire and the unit as a whole counts as having fired its overwatch?

@Dogmar wrote:
As for BS2 overwatch I didn't get to know anything specific, it's either some sort of special rule I didn't get to see, an upgrade for a squad or it is possible to save markerlights for your opponent's turn to use them on overwatch - this last bit is just speculation though as I didn't get to see the rule.

Cant save markerlights, however they can modify snap shots. The tokens are removed just prior to using them to add BS (1 token) remove cover (2 tokens) or fire a seeker missile (1 token) that does not count as a fired weapon from the unit firing it. They are there until used or the end of the phase. Exact wording here, end of phase so they cannot modify overwatch. Interestingly, nowhere does it say they count as searchlights.

There is an upgrade that allows Overwatch to be fired at BS2, name is escaping me, but I believe it is a suit/character upgrade.

Aunva's special ability is gross, basically allows a cover save against high AP weapons. If you wound the unit you have to roll a D6, roll above the AP of the weapon and its ignored exactly as if a save was made. EEEK! Paraphrasing a little here, but that was the gist of it.

Black sun filter is still only 1 point for a sergeant-giving the whole unit nightfighting and immune to blind.

Pulse carbines are pinning, but only 18" range.

Longshot pulse sniper is 48" rapid fire....Sniper teams could be cool.

Disruption pods give a +1 cover save, that's it.

Cant remember the name, but there is an upgrade that allows non characters precision shot, and characters precision on a 5/6

New Warlord table is cool too, from no LoS on your Warlord's shooting attacks to 3d6" thrust move, some neat stuff there.

It is still all about the mecha I mean suits Smile meaning down the drones and they die to STR8 quick. And of course, kill the pathfinders. They did nerf the broadside STR 10, but the ability to give them skyfire and interceptor with STR 8 is enough. New characters are cool, Darkstrider is fun as he consolidates d6" after overwatch but before charge range is rolled.

Without pushing the bounds of GW angry I will stop there, but outshooting them will be hard; lots of STR 7 but not a lot of AP3, its either 4/5 or 2, and not a lot of AP2 at that. Several ignores cover options as well, on multiple platforms.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 05 2013, 06:56

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
Exact wording here, end of phase so they cannot modify overwatch. Interestingly, nowhere does it say they count as searchlights.


The specifically can affect overwatch. You charge my squad of fire warriors, my squad of pathfinders within 6" fires supporting overwatch with all their markerlights (in your assault phase), I'm lucky and get three 6s, that's three hits. The fire warriors now overwatch at BS4.

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
There is an upgrade that allows Overwatch to be fired at BS2, name is escaping me, but I believe it is a suit/character upgrade.

Yes, it's only available for suits

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
Black sun filter is still only 1 point for a sergeant-giving the whole unit nightfighting and immune to blind.

Not available to fire warriors, snipers, pathfinders etc. But comes free on all suits. It can be purchased for 1pt for vehicles (probably where the confusion is from).

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
Pulse carbines are pinning, but only 18" range.

But assault 2.

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
Longshot pulse sniper is 48" rapid fire....Sniper teams could be cool.

Especially seeing as they are BS5 because the sppoters are BS 5 and have drone contriollers so the drones use the spotters BS.

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
Cant remember the name, but there is an upgrade that allows non characters precision shot, and characters precision on a 5/6

Advanced targeting system, 3pts fun on stealth suits with burst cannons. Hekatrix won't stand a chance, or splinter cannon warriors for that matter. 33% of a stealths teams burst cannons hits the tau player with be able to allocate.

So in the following load out:

4 stealth suits, burst cannons, advanced targeting system
2 stealth suits, fusiion blaster, target lock
- 200pts

You would have a unit that can shoot a tank and a squad of infantry at the same time, and against the infantry get 2.66 precisions shots a turn.

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sgb69
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 05 2013, 08:36

What bugs me is the large amount of plentiful cover negation. Between that on piece of wargear and markerlights... bah.

I really don't want to start taking flickerfields again guys. I really don't.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 05 2013, 09:56

Not to mention the amount of night fight negation and precision shots just to top it off. :S

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 05 2013, 11:10

What kind of ranges can we expect to see? If there is little LOS blocking terrain will a tau first turn decimate us?
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 05 2013, 17:42

@exsquared wrote:
What kind of ranges can we expect to see? If there is little LOS blocking terrain will a tau first turn decimate us?
That my friend depends on: Who goes first, the terrain, way you place your models, way your enemy places his models and wether you bought flickerfields and how well you roll 5's and 6's. While they might have edge on newer codex now and plenty nice toys to play with, DE still have one of the meanest alpha strike abilities in the game.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 05 2013, 18:46

@exsquared wrote:
What kind of ranges can we expect to see? If there is little LOS blocking terrain will a tau first turn decimate us?

Yes. There is nowhere on the table that you can be out of range of them. Flickerfields (and cover) will help, but you are not going to roll 5+ twenty times in a row.

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sgb69
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 05 2013, 18:56

@Barking Agatha wrote:
@exsquared wrote:
What kind of ranges can we expect to see? If there is little LOS blocking terrain will a tau first turn decimate us?

Yes. There is nowhere on the table that you can be out of range of them. Flickerfields (and cover) will help, but you are not going to roll 5+ twenty times in a row.

There's this thing, it's called reserves. Not a perfect plan, but probably about the only one. Trying to out-gun a gunline army is silly.

Against Imperial Guard I'd suggest bringing terrain of your own. Against Tau... it won't help as much.

Isn't pretty much all Tau AA lacking Interceptor? If so, then one or two Razorwings may still put enough doom into something to matter.

Do smart missiles require line of sight or grant cover?

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 05 2013, 19:48

Maybe the experienced Archons from higher Commorragh don't fear this development.

But as a dark eldar novice I cry pitch black tears. Tau allready rippid me a new one during their old incarnation, and they have only gotten better.

There was a Tau strategy thread a while ago that concluded target sagguration was the way to go, and we just needed to get into CC.

CC has now become even harder to engange in. Every weapon in their arsenal wounds us on +2 and everyone of them negates our saves. My soldiers dies in drowes.

The Tau player I normally play often employ 42 firewarriors supported by 6-9 crisis suits jumping to and from cover and a couple of hammerheads and maybe a broadside.

With some luck he can destroy my entire army in a single volley.

An idea on top of my head is to speed a webway portal as close to his lines as possible and leave most of the army in reserve to arrive from the portal.

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sgb69
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 05 2013, 22:03

Portal won't work since it leaves your fragile dudes sitting around for a turn before they can assault. And then there's the question of who will deploy it. A transport isn't a good idea. Neither are harlequins anymore.

@ Jehoel:
1. Deepstrike & turbo your CC units.
2. Everyone is a CC unit this game. Kabalite Warriors without a Sybarite are likely to win close combat against a similarly sized squad of Fire Warriors if you get the charge, even charging through cover at i1. They'll lose any prolonged shooting contest, no matter the wargear options, cover, or pain tokens. Well, unless you get 3+ cover and FnP and they're dumb enough to stay within your range.
3. Take nightshields on the shooty vehicles.
4. Be sure the table has a few line of sight blocking bits on it.
5. Spread out across the table so he can't clump up to take advantage of his new supporting fire rule. Play for objectives. Tau kinda suck at taking them.



It's sounding like they'll tailor very well against us. Here's hoping that Marines in their various flavors encourage Tau to take less of the stuff that'll gank us.



On a side note, I'd kill for something like that scout drone. The ability to come on from a guaranteed table edge is 100,000x better than a webway portal. For 12 points on a shooty squad? Freaking amazing.

Outflanking War Walkers will have to do and that's hardly a poor alternative.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 05 2013, 22:37

@sgb69 wrote:
On a side note, I'd kill for something like that scout drone. The ability to come on from a guaranteed table edge is 100,000x better than a webway portal. For 12 points on a shooty squad? Freaking amazing.

It only means outflanking units can come in from that table edge (even if it's yours or your opponents). Stealth suits can take the positional relay (the item that grants the ability) and infiltrate next to your opponents board edge if need be, and then you get a lot of kroot coming on behind you. Pretty awesome though. I can see this is how tau will take enemy objectives. Very Happy

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 05 2013, 22:51

@Jehoel wrote:
Maybe the experienced Archons from higher Commorragh don't fear this development.
But as a dark eldar novice I cry pitch black tears. Tau allready rippid me a new one during their old incarnation, and they have only gotten better.

You're not wrong, but it isn't as bad as all that. 6th edition gave Tau a big boost even before they got their shiny new codex, and they turned out to be especially hard on dark eldar, but we aren't entirely helpless either.

I wouldn't go with reserves. It just lets the Tau deal with your army bit by bit instead of all at once.

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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06 2013, 06:36

overwatching markerlights, didn't think of that. That's nasty! Cheers Mush!

still the unit/model within 6" question but I expect that to be FAQ'd soon.

Double check Blacksun filter, I specifically remember reading the pathfinder sergeant type can take it for 1 point.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06 2013, 08:39

Quote :
The specifically can affect overwatch. You charge my squad of fire warriors, my squad of pathfinders within 6" fires supporting overwatch with all their markerlights (in your assault phase), I'm lucky and get three 6s, that's three hits. The fire warriors now overwatch at BS4.

Doesnt all shooting happen at once?
Do Tau have some special rule allowing a squads marker light to fire first, and the result to affect the rest of the units shooting?

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06 2013, 09:01

@DominicJ wrote:
Quote :
The specifically can affect overwatch. You charge my squad of fire warriors, my squad of pathfinders within 6" fires supporting overwatch with all their markerlights (in your assault phase), I'm lucky and get three 6s, that's three hits. The fire warriors now overwatch at BS4.

Doesnt all shooting happen at once?
Do Tau have some special rule allowing a squads marker light to fire first, and the result to affect the rest of the units shooting?

All shooting from a single unit happens at once but each unit fires separately.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06 2013, 09:19

Argh, sorry misread that, I thought the firewarriors had marker lights

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06 2013, 18:22

We need to keep this thread open, for when we actually have a game against the Tau. Post your results here so everyone can see, and report on what is really threatening. All the normal stuff for a battle report, just so then everyone can see how it goes against the Tau.

It might help some of the people here calm down a little if they realize the Tau won't be as bad as they think.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06 2013, 19:05

Yeah, it can be a bit of an over reaction whenever anything new comes out.
Hell, I'm still eviscerating people convinced Mech is dead Smile
Sure it is, Venomspam is not a threat, oh, your marines are tabled in three turns, what a shame, must've got lucky, since mech is dead Smile

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06 2013, 19:51

After spending a few days poring over the book I'm gonna be blunt and say: I am scared.

It's the multiple threats, the scooting suits and all that S5+ that I don't like. Farsight will come down and kill 3 vehicles in one go. Wanna drop a Riptide? Kill 7 Terminators.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06 2013, 20:07

I played a game on Wednesday night as a last hurrah against the old Tau codex and shredded it, and am hoping for a rematch next week. If I get it I'll do my best to post a decent batrep and general impressions from a DE perspective. From what I've seen it looks worrying but manageable. Anything with a markerlight has to go first. Tau were always going to be a scary prospect since they're one of the game's premier shooting races (along with guard) and 6th ed. is a shooting game. It'll be a match-up of power versus agility; speed will be everything.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06 2013, 20:23

Awesome, thanks Panic_Puppet. That will help with everyone worrying. Once we can get some solid tactics down against the new Tau, everyone will calm down a little.

I would try to help, but I'm in college right now and I don't get to play any games. But at the end of April, I will have games every week and there is a Tau player in my local meta.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06 2013, 21:04

To be honest I don't think anyone is panicking/worrying, just trying to work out what curved balls the tau will be able to throw at us. Very Happy

As mentioned before the army is BS3, and multi charges remove the advantages of supporting ovewatch and defensive grenades.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 06 2013, 21:17

I'm thinking a unit of 5 beastmasters, 5 khymeras and 8 razorwings, possibly supported by Vect (for fearless) and the Baron (for hit and run) would give them something to think about.

Unless they can inflict 55 wounds on the squad with small arms fire (which I think unlikely as they will likely have as few fire warriors as they can get away with to max out on the suits etc) they will be forced to use their nice high strength fire to ID the flocks. High strength fire at the flocks = high strength fire not going into our paper planes, which can then get to work on neutralizing their scary stuff.

The beast pack loses very little from their defensive grenades, and even if they didn't have them would probably be multi-assaulting anyway. They simply cannot ignore the beast pack as it will do horrific things to their...everything pretty much.

The massive boost to our chances of going first by taking both Vect and the Baron is also not to be overlooked.

Taking Eldrad or a Farseer ally can further boost the pack but it is not as effective as it is against pretty much any other army. Making the pack invisible is pointless as they can just ignore the cover saves with their markerlights. Forewarning is an option as it allows the flocks to divert even more of their high strength fire. And as an additional bonus, puppet master would be hilarious to use against them, especially if you were to use Eldrad to do it twice. Hard to really evaluate the value this adds until we start seeing some Tau lists.[Edit] Not to mention that if you don't get the powers you are after you have wasted a lot of points.

Just my two pain tokens.
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