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 DE vs. the new Tau

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 11 2013, 07:53

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Darklight wrote:
I've been looking at some of the lists posted on Dakkadakka (as I dont know any tau forum).

Google "advance tau tactica" it's the only dedicated tau forum I can think of and it's quite active.

@Darklight wrote:
3 groups of Pathfinders, and then start filling the points, or am I missing something here?

You won't see pathfinders (at least not for markerlights), even at BS2 most tau players would take marker drones over them, relentless, JSJ, T4 and a 4+ save make them well worth it. The great thing with jump shoot jump is it really draws your opponent in as they will have a hard time taking the drones out at range (unlike pathfinders who are static). Besides with the Pathfinders now only having a 5+ save they are going to be firing at BS1 most of the time anyway as they will probably being going to ground more often that not.

At least that's how I see it.

Well that might be so, but at bs 2, you are going to hit on 5+ now even if you play with 8 drons thats just average of hitting with 1.3 ML... That really isnt much threat at all now is it? They need to be able to get more marker lights up if they want to play competitive. And I dont think Markerlights drones in squads are any good imo as they hit at same time as the rest of the unit (unless it got Network thingy, but few got).

I might have missed something, but survivability here doesnt really support the drones with that BS. Then there is better with use of ADL and Tarrain to hit with the pathfinders... Ofc, I might have missed something here, just read through the codex quick...

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Jehoel
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 11 2013, 08:11

I am going to try ork allies for the first time. the key to Tau is to give them enough targets that they will eventually miss. So i plan to run 40-50 boyz down the middle to soak sone fire while the transports swoop in the flank. A shock gun big mek will provide some nice long distance support from a save corner. I only have 6 reavers but they will be bladevaning the pathfinders. i think incubi are overkill s my archon will probably be followed by wytches. two ravagers with devastators is going to thin out his ranks. As I am a novice I need to think outside the box if I'm going to survive past 3. round.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 11 2013, 08:34

@Darklight wrote:
Well that might be so, but at bs 2, you are going to hit on 5+ now even if you play with 8 drons thats just average of hitting with 1.3 ML... That really isnt much threat at all now is it? They need to be able to get more marker lights up if they want to play competitive.

This is where other markerlights come in and cascading markerlights. You hit a target with a single BS5 marker light from a Fireblade, sniper team or Crisis commander with marker drones and use that hit to boot the BS of the marker drone squad, so suddenly the drones are firing at BS3-4 and generating a lot more markerlight hits in.

Or you stick a commander with a drone controller in a squad of marker drones, making them all BS5.

@Darklight wrote:
I might have missed something, but survivability here doesnt really support the drones with that BS.

The fact of the matter is you can almost always keep the drones out of line of sight thanks to JSJ (jjust hide them behind a hammer head). They get an extra 6" range, as they can move and shoot at BS2 thanks to being relentless (unlike pathfinder due to markerlights being heavy weapons).

As for difference between T3 and T4, it has always been quite big in my experience in terms of survivability. Path finders will be dead turn 2 at the latest, or have gone to ground and be firing at BS1, in which case what's the point of their BS3?

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 11 2013, 08:46

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Darklight wrote:
Well that might be so, but at bs 2, you are going to hit on 5+ now even if you play with 8 drons thats just average of hitting with 1.3 ML... That really isnt much threat at all now is it? They need to be able to get more marker lights up if they want to play competitive.

This is where other markerlights come in and cascading markerlights. You hit a target with a single BS5 marker light from a Fireblade, sniper team or Crisis commander with marker drones and use that hit to boot the BS of the marker drones, so suddenly the drones are firing at BS3-4 and generating a lot more hits.

Or you stick a commander with a drone controller in a squad of marker drones, making them all BS5.

I have thought about that with the commander, but not though about fireblade tho.
Now its fine with the commander, get Tracket lock or whatever it is that makes he able to shoot at another target and you got you some fine markerlighters tehre. Now the problem there is that you are paying alot more per markerlight. Survivability might be enough to make it valid tho.

But downside is that you can maximum do this to two drone groups tho. (might not need more). I still think it isnt enough to just light up two targets per round. Well, it might be later game, but in turn 1 They should need to light up 4 atleast imo, if not I wont see them as a threat.

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Darklight wrote:
I might have missed something, but survivability here doesnt really support the drones with that BS.

The fact of the matter is you can almost always keep the drones out of line of sight thanks to JSJ (jjust hide them behind a hammer head). They get an extra 6" range, as they can move and shoot at BS2 thanks to being relentless (unlike pathfinder due to markerlights being heavy weapons). The difference between T3 and T4 has always been quite big in my experience. Path finders will be dead turn 2 at the latest, or have gone to ground and be firing at BS1, in which case what's the point of their BS3?

I can see that problem with the Pathfinders indeed, but even so, you can hide behind ADL or in tarrain. To atleast get a +4 cover save. But you are properly right in them getting shot down quite fast. And even so if they go second without the pathfinders in place they are really going to struggle.

Going to be intresting to see the lists that is brought on turnements, and which finish high and stuff...

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 11 2013, 09:02

@Darklight wrote:
The lists that is brought on turnements, and which finish high and stuff...

Indeed it will be. I get the feeling riptides will be popular, good for us though. Very Happy

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 11 2013, 09:23

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Darklight wrote:
The lists that is brought on turnements, and which finish high and stuff...

Indeed it will be. I get the feeling riptides will be popular, good for us though. Very Happy

Yeah, those riptids looks like some nasty crap, but as you say, we dont really fear them.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 11 2013, 14:28

@Mushkilla Markerdrones are great, no doubt about it. They are mobile and much tougher. Main difference is that they fold in assault whereas pathfinders are very difficult to assault due to horrendous overwatch, charge denial drones and an HQ that singled handedly neutralizes charges. This still makes Drones more effective as markerlight platforms, but don't be surprised to see pathfinders as they are significantly more versatile and have surprising firepower now.

@ Darklight As for the troops, you might no see 4+ troop choices all that often, but what you will see is maximum sized squad, which was never very effective in the past and in pre-6th in particular. So expect to see an average amount of squads, but larger than previously run. M LFGS is almost all tau players so I will see soon enough I suppose...
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 12 2013, 04:53

I have read through many of the comments here and I would also like to add my two cents! Ok so I'm seeing alot of "they will take pathfinders and they're not that scary just bladevane them or w/e". I know that at my FLGS they allow Forgeworld Models and assuming you're not at an official GW sanctioned tourney (even then I guess theoretically could be allowed but I'm not sure) it's possible they could allow this. I would like to draw all of your attention to these heinous things. http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tau/TAU-VEHICLES/TAU-PATHFINDER-TETRAS.html

Now, if you download their latest stats page you will see they have a 36" Heavy 4 "high intensity marker light". Basically move 6", get 4 ML shots per Tetra model, 3 in a squadron! A good friend of mine doesn't run pathfinders, he runs these jerks and I gotta say that now with the new "two ML on a target and it ignores cover saves" is nasty. I played a match recently and got dumpstered. Maybe I still have a ways to go in learning how to play DE, but I have played a dozen or so matches before..against him and others and 2/3 of the time I won so I feel that I at least have a fairly decent handle on what i'm required to do to win. Either way my long winded point is that ML suck and with combined overwatch and denied cover saves you get no jink saves and the whole idea of stacking cover saves while kiting your enemy around is nullified. Does anyone mayhaps have suggestions on possible army lists to counter multiple Tetra squadrons? Also, I agree that while Riptide is big and Gundam looking, it isn't THAT scary.
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 12 2013, 06:56

Tetras are and always will be broken, not much you can do about it but suck it up. On the bright side they only get a 4+ cover save for moving (instead of a 3+) and they should be BS3 now, as the tau codex no longer has targeting array (the item that increase BS by 1). My issue with them is they draw AT fire that should be pointed at hammer heads and are dirt cheap so even if you shoot them your opponent is in a win/win situation.

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 12 2013, 08:36

Those Tetras sound well, nasty...
Never faced them... where can I find the rules?

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 12 2013, 09:06

@Darklight wrote:
Those Tetras sound well, nasty...
Never faced them... where can I find the rules?
They originally featured in Imperial Armour 3: The Taros Campaign. In that version, they have only a single Markerlight. Somewhere before 6th edition and the introduction of hull points, Forgeworld released an FAQ for a lot of vehicles. In that FAQ, the Tetra was given a Heavy 4 Markerlight. However, that FAQ is no longer up and replaced by the generic vehicle FAQ for 6th Edition. So in essence, the Tetra is now reverted back to its original form in IA3. Therefore, it no longer has a Heavy Markerlight and uses the normal, single shot Markerlight.
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LordAcheron
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 12 2013, 15:40

@Mushkilla wrote:
On the bright side they only get a 4+ cover save for moving (instead of a 3+) and they should be BS3 now.

They are in fact BS 3 but why do they get a 4+ instead of 3+ cover save?

@Mandor wrote:
They originally featured in Imperial Armour 3: The Taros Campaign. In that version, they have only a single Markerlight. Somewhere before 6th edition and the introduction of hull points, Forgeworld released an FAQ for a lot of vehicles. In that FAQ, the Tetra was given a Heavy 4 Markerlight. However, that FAQ is no longer up and replaced by the generic vehicle FAQ for 6th Edition. So in essence, the Tetra is now reverted back to its original form in IA3. Therefore, it no longer has a Heavy Markerlight and uses the normal, single shot Markerlight.

I downoaded that PDF rules update you were talking about and I see alot of forum posts around Feb 2012 first mentioning it. Why is that FAQ no longer valid? GW's website has a FAQ for Tau's new codex but it only mentions the Warlord Trait table. If they really are only Heavy 1 instead of Heavy 4 I would love it! But, I can't find black/white rules stating so, only the FW stat sheet about the Heavy 4 version. Thx!
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 12 2013, 15:48

@LordAcheron wrote:
but why do they get a 4+ instead of 3+ cover save?

Because the Disruption pod only confer a +1 to cover saves now.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 12 2013, 15:49

Ah that's right. Forgot about that thx!
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 12 2013, 18:28

@LordAcheron wrote:
I downoaded that PDF rules update you were talking about and I see alot of forum posts around Feb 2012 first mentioning it. Why is that FAQ no longer valid? GW's website has a FAQ for Tau's new codex but it only mentions the Warlord Trait table. If they really are only Heavy 1 instead of Heavy 4 I would love it! But, I can't find black/white rules stating so, only the FW stat sheet about the Heavy 4 version. Thx!
It was probably a bug on the Forgeworld site. I couldn't download it last week and I saw a couple of people mentioning that it was down as well, probably with the release of the new codex. It's up now, so I guess those Tetras can still fire those four Markerlight shots each.
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 14 2013, 01:26

Read the codex for a few days. Here's my two cents:

Scout drones are only really useful with Pathfinders and Kroot. Generally not that great, but a useful trick to be aware of. Potentially nasty in higher point games with a drone on either table edge.

EMP Grenades are now plain Haywire Grenades. So that's a significant buff. Though their initiative is much lower than our Haywire dudes, so they aren't able to screw walkers over quite as easily.

Riptides seem to generally be worth it. Buying armored core models gets you a cooler model at a similar size for $35 instead of $85. Probably will be rare to see more than one below 2,000 points.

Crisis Suits are amazing, though having to take farsight to deepstrike reliably is a bit lame. I'm mostly afraid of plasma and flamer suits, but that's me. Freaking hate speedy or deepstriking flamers.

I'm happier to see markerlight drone squads across the table than pathfinders. Those drones are more costly, sometimes by a really high margin. More points sunk into the first unit I intend to trash is golden. I'd hate to see a full force org of minimal pathfinder units and Markerlights mixed in through the army.

I kinda never want to hear the term "cascading markerlight" during a game.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 15 2013, 06:33

Tested them this weekend, (proxy games with some friends).

Their good, I will give them that, and I really enjoyed playing them (not as much as DE tho). I also really think they can change the meta some, with Necrons actually need to think if they want to bring this flying circus now that they are going to face Tau.

But for us, I dont see much to worrie about tbh.

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 15 2013, 09:43

I havent played new Tau but some things worry me:

1) A lot of ignore cover, maybe not so important against venoms, but for everything else without flickerfields its problematic.
2) Spam of t5,6,7 shots, which means our transports can die from everything in their army
3) Riptide, I still think guy with 2+ save 6 wounds and maybe invulnerable save is hard to kill for our posion weapons. And our darklight is mostly 18" range.

But...as I said I have not played against them so I might be wrong Razz

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 15 2013, 17:32

played against them this weekend... they stole turn, negated cover on 3 raiders and 2 ravagers that never knew what hit them. Tau's first turn alpha strike is nasty against our vehicles... literally went straight home and added flickerfields to the spreadsheet for all my ravagers.

That said, once you get close they are even worse than before even with defensive grenades. The fact that kroot are no longer a marginally decent HtH unit means that getting a decent HtH unit or two into their midst really rolls them up.

Also, all those markerlights and alpha strike power comes at a cost... he consistently killed a ton, but struggled to do anything but protect his own objectives. The army lost mobility, and wasnt exactly fast to begin with.
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 15 2013, 18:29

Quote :
The army lost mobility,
Thats a bit of a shame, not really seen it up close, they will be in trouble if they cant move around some,

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 15 2013, 20:15

I think Kroot will need to be seen more, with the ability to infiltrate and outflank, they were the only units my friend fielded that could get to objectives deep in my territory without passing up shooting and running the whole way.

Yes, they have lots of deepstrikers, but they're not big units, and they're not scoring, just denial... which puts them at a disadvantage against armies that have the ability to put high-speed scoring units all over.
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 15 2013, 20:36

@pantofful wrote:
... he consistently killed a ton, but struggled to do anything but protect his own objectives.

If he can protect his own objectives though, and shoot you off yours, isn't that enough?

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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 15 2013, 21:17

He never was able to deny/shoot me off enough objectives, while I was usually able to deny at least 1 deep/midfield objective...especially in length of the table game we played... you're looking at a 6 foot table, with the ability to place objectives 6" off the edge that's 2 turns of movement just to get his firewarriors into range (if he lined up as close as possible, which he didn't.

I think Suits and Kroots will be high priority targets for DE as they are the most likely to contest deep objectives or get line-breaker.
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PostSubject: Re: DE vs. the new Tau   DE vs. the new Tau - Page 5 I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 28 2013, 23:38

Had my first game against the new tau the day before yesterday. It was a great game and everything went well untill the fourth turn. My 15x hellion gang had just landed in a ruin which gave them a 3+ cs (had the wt: conqueror of cities) and a 5+ fnp. Then suddenly, my opponent opened fire with his 3x crisis suits with double burst cannons. Clever as he was he had marked me and then ignored my cover save and increased his bs to 5. In one volley my hellions were no more and after that, the victory slowly slipped from my grasp.

So how do we deal with crisis suits?

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