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Crazy_Ivan
Brom
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 01 2013, 15:59

Quote :
Unfortunately, a unit & its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for the purposes of choosing reserves, so you can't split them up.
This is only partially correct brother. The unit and its dedicated transport are indeed counted as a single unit, but only for the purposes of determining reserves count of units which must start in reserve. Thats it.
Beyond that the rules do not dictate that you cannot split the transport and crew up during deployment. In fact this is one of my favorite tactics, against drop pod armies I will reserve my armour including razorbacks and deploy the infantry to deny LZs since DP units are usually geared to kill armour. Also consider drop pod armies that send in empty pods...

For reference from the rulebook:

pg 124 preparing reserves- "units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

pg 78 dedicated transports- "the only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with"

On the shattershard, I actually read the shard does one hit to a lone charger on overwatch but I have read various threads here that suggest people have been using it to inflict d3 hits on overwatch which made me wonder if I was missing something.

Thanks for the continued input fellas.
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 01 2013, 16:39

Thanks Brom. I was just coming on here to explain the transport thing. You of course explained it in more detail than I was. Which is good of course. So thank you!


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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 01 2013, 17:08

No problemo.

On another note, what do you guys think of taking grisly trophies on all 3 raiders? 15 pts to spread rerolls around for the meat and gravy of the army seems worthwhile and not too easily destroyed. Im a little concerned about LD 8 in this latest list since the grots are a pretty hefty investment.

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 01 2013, 18:44

I tend to take 1 sometimes 2 in my armies. I epic fail LD tests all the time. I keep one near my beast pack

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 01 2013, 20:06

Cool list updated.. dropped teh bloodstone added 3 trophies.
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Squierboy
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 01 2013, 23:13

@Brom wrote:
This is only partially correct brother. The unit and its dedicated transport are indeed counted as a single unit, but only for the purposes of determining reserves count of units which must start in reserve. Thats it.
Somewhat confusing. I take your point, but:

p124 "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later."
...then: "A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

So a unit & its transport are a single unit when determing the 50% reserves allowance, but the 1st sentence also implies they must be kept in reserve together (because they count as a single unit for these purposes). Splitting them up after allocating them to the '50% in reserve' group seems to break this rule (though it is of course allowed when deploying normally)

Not saying you're wrong, only that it is a little ambiguous! You imply it is the norm where you play.

As for the space marine drop pod exception...well that was addressed in the FAQ specifically. If you are allowed to do it in the normal rules, why would you need it to be clarified in an FAQ? Unless it isn't normally allowed? 'Course i'm speculating here.
Are there any such exceptions noted for flyer transports which, like drop pods, must always begin in reserve? I can't find anything for the night scythe.

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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 02 2013, 02:20

I think your reading too much into it brother. The rule first appears strictly as a benefit to dedicated transports but its actually a limiting factor as well, and one built simply to address reserves.

Again looking at drop pod armies, but also anything that wants to alpha strike from reserve, since dedicated transports are typically very very cheap and dont occupy slots so they can skew the reserve count.

If you are still unsure if this is correct though the section on dedicated transports makes it clear that there are no other limitations:

"the only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with".

This statement would be false if reserved units were required to take their dedicated ride with them and visa versa.
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Squierboy
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 02 2013, 17:19

@Brom wrote:
I think your reading too much into it brother.
You may be right. If it's an accepted use, I have no particular problem. I just haven't seen it before, plus no FAQ exists to clarify the situation. Could email GW support, but they've never answered me yet!

@Brom wrote:
"the only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with".
I do think you are mistaken to use this statement as justification, however. This is really only talking about what units can/can't embark in a dedicated transport - it doesn't address any other part of gameplay. It just makes it clear how dedicated transports differ from normal transports i.e. they are identical in all other respects.
Think about it - if you interpret it literally, it appears to give carte blanche for dedicated transports to do anything ("The only limitation...")!

Can all my dedicated transports deep strike? *checks rulebook p78*...Yes, they can!
Can all my dedicated transports move as skimmers? Ditto
Do all my dedicated transports have a 2+ invulnerable save? If you want!
Can all my dedicated transports make strawberry icecream for the troops? Hell yes!

And the examples get more silly after that, but you get the idea.

BTW, do let us know how you get on with your current list. I've never seen anyone take that many grotesques before, so it would be interesting to see how they do!

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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 02 2013, 17:56

Lol point taken on the no limitations thing. I should have some results very soon and I'll get back with you for sure. I know I'm rather heavy on CQC and elites while being lite on troops but I'm gonna try it since my collection is limited atm. On the other hand my elites should draw attention from my troops and with a little careful play on their part they should do ok I think.
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 12 2013, 18:15

So ive played a decent number of games with the army and I have to say im very pleased! I had no idea DE of all armies could boast such a nasty combat element. After playing soo many variations of meq over the last decade I was surprised, the efficiency of delivery and combat punch this army is capable of is damn good, maybe even premier. Not to mention the anti infantry firepower is so good. God its refreshing.

Heres some changes to the list, note that I played games ranging from 1k, 1850, and 2k (teams of 1k) so my bead on whether I actually want the 3rd elites or another troops at this level is still not dialed in yet but the 4 were usually sufficient since Ive been playing this army more about tabling rather than the mission. I really enjoyed the 1k level btw, its just so fast and cut throat.. hadnt played at this level in years but now Im wondering if I shouldnt just play 1k-1250 from now on although sadly I would lose my double grotstars.
Anyhow id like some insight on night shields for the assault elements or not. My environment is mostly xenos atm with some mech, gks, soon some tau.

HQ
archon, shadow field, pgl, huskblade, vb, drugs, hwg 170
haemonculus, liquifier, vb 65
haemonculus, liquifier, vb 65

ELITES
7 incubi, klaivex, raider- sails- 234
4 grotesques, liquifier, aberation- flesh gauntlet, raider- sails 245
4 grotesques, liquifier, aberation- flesh gauntlet, raider- sails 245

TROOPS
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc, night shields 120
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc, night shields 120
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc, night shields 120
5 warriors, venom- 2 sc, night shields 120

HS
ravager, night shields 115
ravager, night shields 115
ravager, night shields 115

TOTAL- 1849


Edit- also ive never had to deal with this until now but I figure dark eldar players do regularly, so, can my haemonculus begin the game embarked in a transport (incubi) then during the movement phase disembark that unit leaving the pain token and embark a different transport (grotes)? The rules seem to disallow the reverse (embark then disembark) but say nothing against what im suggesting. The purpose is obviously to drop his pain token with the incubi while still gaining the protection of the transport. Hmmm maybe a shout out to night shields there too I guess.
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Squierboy
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 12 2013, 20:30

You can't disembark and embark in the same turn (transport rules), but you can leave a squad and embark in the same turn. So you'd have to have the incubi deployed out of their transport with the haemi, then in the 1st tun the haemi leaves and jumps in a different transport. The incubi steal his pain token and then embark on their own transport.


I think Night shields are an expensive luxury - have they worked enough for you to justify the cost?

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 12 2013, 20:48

Havent actually tried night shields yet but losing my AT is really the biggest problem ive encountered so far, so I figured the in-your-face element to draw fire plus the addition of night shields on my troops and ravagers might be a good combo. Plus Most of the armies I face have majority range of 24" or less.. it seems almost unfair against nids and almost as good against crons/gks and orks if I kill their lootas quick enough.

On the disembark then embark thing, I can only find where it says you cant embark then disembark.. not the reverse, or am I missing something?
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Squierboy
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 13 2013, 11:32

If you know you're often up against armies with such short range shooting, NS should be handy for the raider units (helps vs rapid fire range) - but the others are all 36" shooting and should be able to stay out of range and still shoot back without taking damage. The problem is that NS don't help that well vs 48" shooting (autocannon dreds, for example). I got sick of them not working when i really needed them, but you should give them a try and see.

On transports, p78 ('embarking and disembarking") states that models cannot voluntarily embark and disembark in the same turn. The order is not important- if you find yourself doing both in the same turn, you break that rule. I suppose it would say models cannot voluntarily embark then disembark in the same turn if the order was significant?

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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Apr 13 2013, 15:54

Ah yes I see now, was tired yesterday and my brain was registering something different. Oh well no biggy, if I need the pain token transferred ill keep the incubi out of their ride long enough to transfer it over.

I think I'll roll with NS on everything for the next few games just to see. Basically I want to see if losing a unit to potentially extend the life of everything else is worthwhile. Im not used to having such fragile AT in such limited quantities (as opposed to in tougher units + krak on everything).
In my environment its just missiles, autocannons and deffguns that can threaten beyond 36" that I can think of atm so NS should take pretty much every other weapon out of the equation, at least as far as who gets the first strike in.
I anticipate they will take a little more pressure off of my deployment options and keep things like anni barges from cornering my ravagers for a whole nother turn. It also keeps heavy bolters devs heavy gauss and kannons out of range which is sweet since those lil' bastards really got a boost in 6th.. toughness 7 grots are rediculously good for their cost now.

Thanks for the continued help brother.
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