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Crazy_Ivan
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PostSubject: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2013, 16:13

Greetings! This is my first post here so ill give a short intro... Im a member of various 40k forums and ive been playing wargames for somewhere over a decade although almost exclusively marine variants up until now. Im a fan of MSU primarily but I dont like complete spam. My meta is varied with more xenos than meq, semi competitive not high level competitive. I like to build lists that are strong but not point click or unfair to play against if I can help it. If I find a list or army to be to strong ill lose interest and move on (built and played GKs for 3 games total).
Now thats out of the way im wanting to start a DE army with a combat element and looking for some insight:

Edit- forgot to add this is a great forum! Dark eldar/elf forums tend to be very informative and competitive so props.

HQ
archon, shadow field, huskblade/vb, drugs, trap 150
haemonculus, liquifier, axe 70
haemonculus, liquifier, axe 70
haemonculus, liquifier, axe 70

ELITES
4 grotesques, liquifier, aberation- flesh gauntlet, raider- sails, dc 245
4 grotesques, liquifier, aberation- flesh gauntlet, raider- sails, dc 245

TROOPS
10 wracks, 2 liquifiers, raider- sails, dc 185
5 wyches, hwg, venom- night shields, 2 sc 135
5 wyches, hwg, venom- night shields, 2 sc 135
3 wracks venom- night shields, 2 sc 105
3 wracks venom- 2 sc 95

HS
ravager 3 dl, night shields 115
ravager 3 dl, night shields 115
ravager 3 dl, night shields 115

TOTAL- 1850

archon and 1 haemie go in one grotesque unit 2 haemies in the other. These units and the full wracks, can and likely will, boost right into my opponents face, or at least behind cover to do so the following turn. Im anticipating both grot units will kick ass, although this is all theoryhammer for now but both are FNP/FC with one LD10 the other fearless and both with 2 and 3 liquifiers respectively and both packing instant death weaponry.

The rest hangs out at the shallow end of the pool gunning down infantry while ravagers try to open transports for all the flamer templates. No PGL for the archon because I figured he has grenades and his escort is init 4 anyway so ill look to T5 instead of spending the pts, that and avoiding power fists and such. Oh and the small wych units can slog if needed.

Things im not sold on atm are 3 ravagers. They are obviously damn good but I dont like completely waffle stomping the opposition, im just not sure about the power level of DE yet as a newcomer to this army. Is this sufficient AT? (im comparing to 3 tri-las preds).
If 2 proves sufficient I would want to switch one for something else, maybe a talos or even a disi ravager..idk. 3 man wrack squads feels dirty. Hell they are dirty from a min/max PoV but I doubt they will draw fire before other things so I can get away with it just not sure its what I want to do.

Ive had mixed feedback on a few things elsewhere such as 3 haemies vs 1 Urien, usefulness of the huskblade vs just a venom blade, the flesh gauntlet vs scissor hands on the aberations, and power axes vs venom blades on the haemies. My goal is to present 2 very durable very killy threats to any type of unit anywhere I want with sails. I figured instant death weapons helps vs my ork/nids/cron opponents and ap2 weapons helps vs my meq opponents.

Anyway enough rambling..tear it apart!


Last edited by Brom on Thu Mar 28 2013, 23:02; edited 1 time in total
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Crazy_Ivan
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2013, 16:30

Your grots should do well i currently run one squad but am building a second. They are very hard to ge rid of and will smash most units they get into cc with.

Stick with 3 ravagers send ing your grots into the face of the enemy should draw the fire for them allowing them to do what they do best Smile
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2013, 16:52

Thanks brother, and would you suggest night shields on everything or are these extraneous? Also any advice on the other parts of the list like wargear or unit sizes?
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Crazy_Ivan
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2013, 18:09

I used to run nightshields on everything but have recently stopped and have to say has not made that much difference, looking at your list I would drop them on everything and boost the small wrack squads up to 5 with a liquifier each.
The liquifiers are amazing!
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2013, 18:53

I dig that idea, especially since the 3 aether sail units will probably be attracting most of the attention initially. Should I leave night shields on the ravagers at least, or will this cause the venoms to get shot down quicker? Hmmm maybe shields on the venoms only..

Also im really starting to think I should just ditch the wyches all together. I could instead go all in on the wrack thing or else change the small units to warriors with blasters. the blaster squads could fly around like a squadron and murder stuff in concert.. 3 blasters at a vehicle 6 splinter cannons at infantry.
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Squierboy
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2013, 19:02

Nice list.

I agree to getting rid of all the night shields - that's 60 points right there. You just don't need them if you play carefully and pre-measure.

Those small wych units are fine for anti-tank, something you do need more of, and that the wracks don't help you with. The warriors with blasters are not as reliable for tank hunting, but have a bit more general utility e.g. they can disembark and still contribute more than simply cowering in cover.

At that points level 3 ravagers with DL is not overkill (prepare to be shocked by their sometimes hopeless ability to kill any armour!), but try it out and if you feel it's too much I recommend switching one for a disi ravager - those things scare the bejesus out of marines and terminators.

I'd be tempted to give the archon just a VB for killing high-toughness stuff and general wound-spam - the aberation can handle any ICs with the gauntlet. Could also throw in a blaster for a pre-charge BS7 nearly auto-kill.

For the same reason vs MC, give one of the haemi a VB to go in the other raider. Personal taste though.

Gave up Grey Knights after 3 games eh? Good decision! Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2013, 21:20

Thanks for the input Squireboy. Ya GKs were just too...good.
Im not sure I can get behind an archon if hes just packing a poison weapon, good as they could be but again this is theory hammer ATM. I really like the concept of init 7 ID attacks though, at least as an option. Or would an agonizer be the better middle ground instead? Coming from marines 135 pts for a badass warlord looks like a steal to me honestly especially with the cheap as chips support haemies!

Anyway heres an updated list for your thoughts, axe haemie goes in the second unit so both have ap2 ability:

HQ
archon, shadow field, pgl, huskblade, vb, drugs 165
haemonculus, liquifier, axe 70 (or vb instead to get sails for the wracks raider?)
haemonculus, liquifier, vb 65
haemonculus, liquifier, vb 65

ELITES
4 grotesques, liquifier, aberation- vb, raider- sails, dc 230 (archon, vb haemie)
4 grotesques, liquifier, aberation- flesh gauntlet, raider- sails, dc 245

TROOPS
10 wracks, 2 liquifiers, acothyst- vb, raider- dc 195
5 wracks, liquifier, venom- 2 sc 125
5 warriors, blaster, venom- 2 sc 125
5 warriors, blaster, venom- 2 sc 125
5 warriors, blaster, venom- 2 sc 125

HS
ravager 3 dl 105
ravager 3 dl 105
ravager 3 dl 105 (disi cannon instead?)

TOTAL- 1850

So thats 2 units with ID potential, killer staying power and a total of 8 liquifiers.. AT might be a bit low although I dont always face armoured columns anymore.. mostly av13 mechrons or BAs dreads + mechanized infantry and preds, then some light mech wolves. Besides that maybe GKs, CSM and definitely nidzilla. Havent seen eldar in awhile.

Edit- so in this latest context would changing one ravager to 3 disi cannons be exceptable? They just look obscenely killy.

(List updated per suggestions below)


Last edited by Brom on Fri Mar 29 2013, 05:27; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2013, 23:10

If you have AT covered, by all means get a disi ravager. They're a nice foil to all that poison shooting (it's satisfying to go straight through power armour for once). To rebalance, you could take a dark lance or two on the raiders (for pot shots).

If you're keeping the huskblade, then I'd suggest switching his squad's aberration's flesh gauntlet to a scissorhand. More attacks, better poison, and you don't need the instant death ability if the Archon has it covered. Also, why not a soul trap if you're thinking of character killing?
The space marine HQs are pretty expensive, probably over-costed for the most part, but let's not compare our HQs to their's!
Btw, if your Archon has a venom blade as well as a huskblade, his points cost is actually 140.

Overall, looks pretty good now (Night shields aside...), I hope the grotesques do the business!

Oh, and I think eldar will be coming back with a vengeance later this year, so look out for that Cool

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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2013, 23:19

If you're planning to run the archon in a grotesque unit, I'd suggest throwing on a PGL. While grotesques are usually tough enough to take attacking last, it's still not ideal, and there's usually enough cover around to make it a distinct possibility. The defensive grenades also help the unit take Overwatch better.

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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 29 2013, 03:56

Some really good points you guys make and thanks for the points correction on the archon. So would you opt for the huskblade, venom blade or agonizer or something else? Assuming pts are not an issue (at least not until 170 ish), i.e. I want the most efficient deadly killer I can get.

If I take a huskblade then I'll opt for a venom blade on the aberration since as stated I don't need 2 ID weapons and after doing some math the scissors and VB are nearly identical in wounds although the scissors has greater potential due to more attacks and would be a great modeling opportunity if pts allow.

Nice call on the PGL, I didn't click on the defensive grenades which might really up their durability. Downgrading from flesh gauntlet to VB gets me within 10 pts.. So maybe lose the last night Shields to do these changes and add a acothyst with VB to the wracks?

EDIT- the latest list has been edited for a few small tweaks as recommended.. its reallly starting to feel like finishing touches now which is cool since im gonna be modeling before too long. Cheers for the help and lemme know if you see anything that needs a double take in this latest version.

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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 29 2013, 07:23

A small comment on wracks unit. Being 10 strong the Haemy cannot fit in their ride. Was that on purpose?

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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 29 2013, 15:18

Actually no my plan is 2 ICs in each grot unit giving both FC/FNP with the archons unit LD10 and the other fearless.
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 29 2013, 15:53

I like your revised list much more. This army looks fun to play with.
Maybe I should try more than just 3 grots.

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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 29 2013, 19:11

Thanks brother although I haven't played with it yet.. I'm going to proxy some games soon though while the models are in transit.

I'm still torn on the archons loadout though. I'm paying 35 pts to get ID with ap2 (situationally devastating) then +10 to gamble on 1/3 chance of making it effective when not chargimg (FC if charging) then +5 for venom blade as a contingency and for utility against geq.

On the other hand if I don't take the huskblade I'll want to invest +15 to get a flesh gauntlet on the aberration which eats up a good chunk of the savings anyway. Meanwhile the blaster suggestion has definite appeal.

So am I putting too much stock in ap2-3 weapons or have you guys found the investment worthwhile? Also I found the agonizer isn't poisoned (thanks to a member here).. So what good is a Lhamaean then?
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 29 2013, 19:57

I never leave home without my husk blade and soul trap. They are worth every penny in my opinion, never fail to easily make their points back each game.
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 29 2013, 20:48

A Lhamaean is no good, basically! She gives the Archon a 2+ poisoned splinter pistol. Woah! Look out World - I've got my 12" pistol of nearly auto-wounding! But that aside, she is actually pretty cheap for a unit that has 2+ poisoned weapons.

Give the archon a try, and if you find yourself using the venom blade all the time, ditch the whole huskblade setup (the expense is not just the huskblade itself, but the soul trap & combat drugs too). The blaster loses you an attack, but you gain a deadly shooting option. Agoniser is the old go to weapon, but without the old combat drugs, it suffers from only being 4+ to wound. And also to a lesser extent being AP3.

On VB vs scissorhands, by my own calculations the scissorhands are superior vs T5 (T6 with furious charge) or less - the re-rolls benefit them the most. vs higher toughness, the venom blade wins. Remember that the roll needed to wound with poisoned weapons is only the 'worst' they can do - vs lower T the scissorhands are noticeably better as they can get the 2+ to wound just like the VB. This also works for the flesh gauntlet of course.

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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 29 2013, 23:09

I always go for flesh gauntlets over scissor hands, 6 attacks on the charge, normally with re-rolls and instant death Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 30 2013, 00:23

Sounds good I'll stick with it a few games. On VB vs flesh gauntlet I did miscalculate, will have to rethink that. Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 31 2013, 23:49

So it sounds like im going to have the chance to run dark eldar through a gauntlet in less than a week! This will be their maiden voyage and ill be facing nids, orks, crons, blood angels, maybe wolves maybe gks.. Downside is I wont have any wracks by then. SUCK.

Upside is it gives me a great excuse to just throw sense and missions out the window and go cock diesel with this:

HQ
archon, shadow field, pgl, huskblade, vb, drugs 165
haemonculus, liquifier, vb 65
haemonculus, liquifier, vb 65

ELITES
7 incubi, klaivex, raider- sails, trophy, disi cannon- 239
4 grotesques, liquifier, aberation- flesh gauntlet, raider- sails, trophy, disi cannon 250
4 grotesques, liquifier, aberation- flesh gauntlet, raider- sails, trophy, disi cannon 250

TROOPS
5 warriors, blaster, venom- 2 splinter cannons 125
5 warriors, blaster, venom- 2 splinter cannons 125
5 warriors, blaster, venom- 2 splinter cannons 125
5 warriors, blaster, venom- 2 splinter cannons 125

HS
ravager, 3 dark lances 105
ravager, 3 dark lances 105
ravager, 3 dark lances 105

TOTAL- 1850

Any thoughts?


Last edited by Brom on Mon Apr 01 2013, 20:07; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 31 2013, 23:57

incubi are already expensive so I think that you should drop the blood stone. also 4 small troop units at 1850 prob won't be enough. If you are only going to take 4 troops I'd drop the blasters from them and use them only for scoring and small support rolls when needed. you can reserver 2-4 of the warriors units, but deploy the venoms. this will give you more points for other useful things. more troops?

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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 01 2013, 00:35

Thanks for the input brother. Im kinda stuck atm because im still building my force and I wont have any wracks in by then! My earlier list is more of what I plan to run regulalry.. unfortunately I will only have skimmers warriors and incubi and the grotesques so that is what I came up with. I could proxy the wracks with marine bodies I suppose, but now that the latest list is made I kinda like it.

I really like the idea of reserving a couple warrior units though thanks for that. Ill consider losing a couple blasters if I can find a worthwhile place to put the pts instead.. any suggestions besides troops since I wont have any?
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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 01 2013, 00:44

you could always night shield everything. take another Haemo with shattershard (it's da bomb). that way all 3 elites are super buff. but then I think you would be spending too many points on HQ.

even a small units of reaver jetbikes for contesting objectives could be nice. OR you can have a small unit of reavers declare a charge before a incubi or grots to force the enemy to either overwatch the bikes (which is good), or force them to hope that the bike don't make it so that they can overwatch the incubi/grots. these aren't the best ideas, but they could work. 3 bikes with a blaster or heat lance while note overly likely to kill much will still be a threat that may get ignored due to not being over threatning

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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 01 2013, 01:06

Night shield is something ill think on. It should up their survivability in theory although others above advised against these in my earlier lists. Of course that was when I had +10 wracks so maybe their loss changes things.

Again the bikes are a cool idea but I would need to proxy them with marines.

I do like the shattershard idea, a lot actually. Especially since ill be facing armies with MCs and uber CC monsters like up to 7 MCs, maybe mephiston, 2 ork warbosses, Dlord, possibly a tomb stalker, maybe a dreadknight.. you get the idea. In fact now im questioning if I should squeeze the soul trap too.
Also I couldnt find anything that stated overwatch can force more than a single test but ive seen people on this site mention doing just that. Is it d3 tests or a single test (say on a lone charging model).

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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 01 2013, 01:25

I have had nothing but success with the shattershard so far. My notible kille in the last 20-25 games with it have been Drago, the orther grey night guy with the ghost termies (when he dies all the ghosts die ;-) ), Vect- he charged me so I overwatched and made him take 3 Tough tests. muahahahahaaaa!. and the odd blob and other characters. Night shields are realy an all or nothing thing. I've use them sometimes. they are more situational, but I have found then I am very good at using them as I always remember to premeasure and keep them out of range.

I can't wait to have something huge charge me like a hive tyrant or dreatnight and make it take 3 tough tests. then watch it go by by.

when you shoot the shattershard everymodel hit takes a T test. when you overwatch the closest model takes the hit. if he doens't die from the fisrt hit he takes the second as so on until he is removed or survies all the hits. It works ;-)

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PostSubject: Re: 1850 grot pirates   1850 grot pirates I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 01 2013, 01:42

Unfortunately, a unit & its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for the purposes of choosing reserves, so you can't split them up.

I agree there probably should be another troop choice, so although the 3 assault units give a good target saturation for when they attack, I'd drop one of them and pick up another troop venom squad or a raider squad - if you have the models. If not, it can still work for you if you look after the warrior squads. After all, your opponents will be kept quite busy dealing with all those elites & ravagers. I don't think assault is the way to go this edition, but at least the grotesques are tough, and those 3 units are all good - swapping them for other non-troop units doesn't make much sense unless there is something much better to use instead (& that you have in your miniature collection). So keep them and see how they do. After all, it's pretty close to your planned list.

I do not recommend dropping blasters for night shields, personally. If you find yourself adding on loads of needless upgrades to make it to 1850pts, then you don't really have a large enough force yet.

The shattershard is fine, but slightly situational, and of course a one-shot gamble. LGs are cheaper and better for general use, but if you have the points to spare... Oh, and be prepared to have your interpretation of its use during overwatch challenged! It's not a normal shooting attack at all, and in the codex only states a single toughness test must be taken. Forcing your opponent to take D3 tests is exploitative of the rules in an outdated codex, at best.

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