THE DARK CITY
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.



 
HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityRegisterLog in

 

 Shardnet Love?

Go down 
AuthorMessage
Fletch
Kabalite Warrior
Fletch

Posts : 131
Join date : 2011-06-13

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 15:39

Someone please help me understand why all the Shardnet & Impaler love I see on these forums?

IMO its a mediocre upgrade at best.

First, Wyches are not defensive they are offensive in nature.

Second, with Plasma Grenades and Int 6 (or better if they get Furious Charge) they are most likely going first 99% of the time.

Third, Shardnet and Impaler only effects models in base contact (not the entire unit)

Forth, it most instances the upgrade effectively doubles the cost of the model holding it.

Fifth, against models with only 1A (Vanilla Marines, Guard, Tau, Necron, Eldar, etc) it has no effect.

Sixth, Wyches have an INV save in HtH so no need to silence a powerweapon or powerfist as they have the same effect as a sharp stick.

Given that Wyches are more than likely going first a smart general is going to remove his casualties from base contact with the SN&I first to maximize his return attacks. So with a unit of 10 Wyches you should hopefully kill at least 2 models regardless of type (GEQ, MEQ, etc) and I would hazard a guess your SN&I isnt going to be touching more than 2 of them (with 10 models attacking); so unless you're extremely lucky and contact a model your opponent just refuses to remove (Kitted out Sgt, etc) that actually has more than 1 attack, your SN&I should be left modeless having no impact on the fight (i.e reducing incoming attacks).

In almost all instances you would be better served saving the 10 points if you already have a full unit, or adding an additional Wyche if your under 10 (and not in a Venom) Maybe upgrade thier Raider with a FF, etc. I can think of lots of ways to more effectively spend those 10 points.

I'd love to see the light here.


Made this its own thread as it really didn't belong where I found it. - Baron Tordeck
Back to top Go down
killfrenzy
Hellion
killfrenzy

Posts : 71
Join date : 2011-05-17
Location : Commorragh

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 16:43

It's best used in a unit of bloodbrides accompanying an archon with a clone field. Give the archon huskblade/soultrap stick the lot in a venom and point it at a MC/IC.

It's useless against horde.

Quote :
First, Wyches are not defensive they are offensive in nature.

They're a tarpit. Incubi are offensive.

_________________
Fetch me another plaything. This one seems to have broken.
Back to top Go down
Local_Ork
Fleshsculptor
Local_Ork

Posts : 1500
Join date : 2011-05-26
Location : Near good fight!

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 17:04

So -1 attack to all dudes in b2b is useless on tarpit?


Ok...

_________________
Shardnet Love? TattoosigtlShardnet Love? TattoosigseShardnet Love? Tattoosigow
"Most vile thing you can read. Ever." - Our Forum Rules
Back to top Go down
Kinnay
Wych
Kinnay

Posts : 626
Join date : 2011-06-06
Location : Hamburg, Germany

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 17:10

As killfrenzy has pointed out, Wyches are indeed very much a defensive unit. Sure, if thrown at light infantry with low toughness and a mediochre save, they will do damage, but they're best used against the ugliest, most bad-butt (swear filter? uh...) unit your oponent has (and vehicles), preferably with a lot of Power Weapon attacks. They will tie them up for at least a couple of turns and the Shardnets only help them with that.
Yes, it may seem like a wasted upgrade when used against standard infantry with one attack only. But more often than not there is going to be some kind of model that has more, be it a squad leader or an IC. Actually I can't recall a single game were the Shardnets didn't help the unit in order to stay alive.

Now, when used by Bloodbrides it get's downright devastating (in a defensive kind of way).

See it this way: Why pay points for an upgrade that gives you D6-1 additional S3 attacks, when you know how little they are going to achieve with them? Why pay points for another upgrade that makes your 3 (or 2) S3 attacks more likely to do something, when... well, see above? Even if that one additional wound that you are going to cause should win you the fight - do you want that? Your squad is going to get shot to pieces!

Keeping an enemy unit just one round longer locked in combat until your real hitters arrive (Incubi, Beasts, etc.) is totally worth the price, in my opinion. Either the Shardnets or no upgrade.

_________________
Visit my project log [last update: February 10th]:
The Ebon Fire
Back to top Go down
Raneth
Sybarite
Raneth

Posts : 467
Join date : 2011-06-12
Location : ridin' the Razor, cussin' at my Wyches

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 17:28

I too view Wyches as a defensive cc unit and of all upgrades, only the shardnet and impaler seem attractive to me. But hell, you can get another guy for the same pts, so only when transport capacity is maxed would I seriously consider them.

_________________
...........
~ Drazhar, Master of Blades
Back to top Go down
Fletch
Kabalite Warrior
Fletch

Posts : 131
Join date : 2011-06-13

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 17:53

The original post was tied to an army list review that included multiple units of 10 Wyches with a single SN&I. In that situation (along with many others) I don't see the real value in the 10 point upgrade. I have seen more and more of this which prompted my question, which became this post.

I understand there are situations where it might be fun as you mentioned, Clonefield, Bloodbrides w SN&I (ouch expensive) even though you probably would be better off just going with Incubi etc.

Getting back on track regarding the 10 regular Wyches, on the charge that unit should put out 30+ attacks which should result in at least 2 wounds against say MEQ (thats not counting a Hek w/Agoniser if involved, or a decent combat drug result). The SN&I more than likely would not be in base contact with more than 2 models given an additional 9 Wyches ran in as well and a smart general would remove those 2 first thus negating the SN&I affect.

Against lower T lower Armour troops Wyches should sock up on wounds and overpower the the initial combat which reduces the SN&I impact or making it ineffective all together in the combat.

Now thats giving the benefit of the charge to the DE player, on the receiving end a smart general will again position themselves to avoid direct BtB contact if they even care about the SN&I.

IMO to call them a Tarpit requires they have at least FNP. Would you call Tau Firewarriors with photon (T3 armor 4) tarpits as i've never heard that word associated to them?

DE has the firepower and mobility not to need to build units as tarpits, take that bad-butt unit and make them roll dice, they tend to go away quick enough regardless of their save. IMO the roll of Wyches and Bloodbrides is to tack advantage of DE shooting and engage units already reduced in size allowing the guns to focus on fresh units.
Back to top Go down
Baron Tordeck
The Helfather
Baron Tordeck

Posts : 1872
Join date : 2011-02-28
Location : In your Nightmares

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 18:05

They are a tarpit because their cc save is an invul and very few things negate an invul. And they can gain FNP to make them even more resilient.

And when charging you would get them in B2B with those pesky fists, claws, etc and no one I know would remove those as the 1st casualties. Also it might just be where I am from but people generally remove casualties from the rear for convenience regardless if there is a Net in my wych unit.

If your playing DE its not giving them the benefit of the doubt that they charged. DE will be the ones charging, no ifs, ands, or buts, or your playing them wrong. We are too quick to get caught with our pants down.

_________________

Forum Rules - Read and Obey - Or Else!
Back to top Go down
Fletch
Kabalite Warrior
Fletch

Posts : 131
Join date : 2011-06-13

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 18:28

Exactly my point as a DE player you should be picking and choosing your fights. DE are paper tigers.

Against armies that don't have or take huge stockpiles of power-weapons your Wyche is no different than a Tau Firewarrior, Guard Vet in Carapace, Eldar Dire against returning attacks. Not at least until they have killed something and get FNP and they wont be getting that done anytime quick acting as a tarpit.

A smart player isn't married to their upgrades if they don't prove to provide an advantage to keeping them.

The smart player will remove casualties that provide them the best advantage. Its not unsporting or cheating if someone does but as you mention typically most of us remove casualties from the back for ease and convienence. I would wager based on your other statement about they also don't like to remove their PW or fists, they probably wouldn't choose to remove them if they happend to be stuck in the back. Also don't expect that in a tourney. Have you ever thought they might not care about removing models off your SN&I because they really arn't worried about the SN&I's impact to them?

Unless you are facing mass GK armies (flavor of the month) there are very limited power weapon heavy units that can be fielded en mass that your firepower shouldn't be able to lay low.

To each their own, it comes down to playstyle and the type of opponent you face on average. I see Wyches as oppurtunists, picking on my opponents small units hoping to overwhelm them quickly (1 - 2 rounds tops) allowing my firepower to focus on fresh units (making them into small units) and a SN&I just doesn't pay.
Back to top Go down
xzandrate
Kabalite Warrior
xzandrate

Posts : 205
Join date : 2011-05-20
Location : Northern Ontario

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 19:12

I like the shardnet and impaler, but I do find that they are an all or nothing type upgrade. By that I mean you have to buy as many as you can get, and they don't always perform great.

I don't think this is so much a function of the unit of the upgrades, so much as a function of the game. Alot of the game has gone shooty, not alot of combat except for a few armies. The big netlists always focus on shooting spam.

The units that the wyches will perform the best against are the dedicated assault units, paired weapons, multi-attacks, possibly multiple power weapons or rending. Any smart player who has any experience against Dark Eldar will avoid wyches with those elite units, because in the last book they were even worse on those units (reducing WS, eliminate bonus for extra CCW, invuln save). I can't count the number of times Terminators avoid the wyches, or deepstrike on the opposite side of the table.

I think they can be viable as the opportunistic harrassing unit, but really, once you learn to use them as a tarpit, you realize how powerful they are at it. Keep units out of the fight, pull units off objectives, hold units to setup another unit to assaut, force elite squads into attrition battles that the wyches normally win.

It comes down to how you use the wyches. Obviously none of the upgrades are "have to take" upgrades, like the wych weapons from the last book. But the shardnet/impaler definitely is the most useful to the tarpit wyches.
Back to top Go down
Fletch
Kabalite Warrior
Fletch

Posts : 131
Join date : 2011-06-13

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 20:01

A few things to keep in mind though

5 out of the 6 results for a Wyches combat drugs diminishes the SN&I returns over say Hydra Gauntlets, or buying additional Wyches etc. Thats because more dead upfront = less attacks you face and thats less attacks your SN&I can deminish.

WS - more hits more wounds more dead, less attacks against
STR - more wounds more dead, less attacks against
ATTK - more attacks, more wounds, more dead, less attacks against
ReRoll - more wounds, more dead, less attacks against

Keep in mind the more resiliant your Wyches get (i.e. FNP) the less impact reducing your opponents attacks has on them. (outside of all power weapon wielding units).
****Warning Math example (WS 4 STR 4 non power weapon, w FNP)****
36 Attacks 18 hits 12 wounds = 3 dead
24 Attacks 12 hits 8 wounds = 2 dead

As above lets say your 2 SN&I reduced 12 models attacks by 1 it might save a Wyche or you can buy 2 more models having more attacks up front (which might reduce attacks back) and two additional wounds to soak.

Are SN&I useless?: No
Is there better ways to spend the points? Probably


Last edited by Fletch on Fri Jun 17 2011, 20:10; edited 2 times in total
Back to top Go down
Baron Tordeck
The Helfather
Baron Tordeck

Posts : 1872
Join date : 2011-02-28
Location : In your Nightmares

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 20:06

@Fletch wrote:
Also don't expect that in a tourney.
been through a GT and a couple RTTs and a number of causal (but competitive list) games with DE and not a single person played removed causalities from anywhere but the back within the assault phase.

But that may just be the NE, USA.

EWP - thats all fine an dandy if you don't face Banshees (who will strike first) Nids w/ Lashwhip (who will strike first) or GK (new flavor of the month - that will strike simmo). Over all in an all commers list the Nets are the best "Wych Waepons" that you can buy. Gauntlets a close 2nd. Flails distant third.


_________________

Forum Rules - Read and Obey - Or Else!
Back to top Go down
Fletch
Kabalite Warrior
Fletch

Posts : 131
Join date : 2011-06-13

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 20:18

@Baron Tordeck wrote:

If your playing DE its not giving them the benefit of the doubt that they charged. DE will be the ones charging, no ifs, ands, or buts, or your playing them wrong. We are too quick to get caught with our pants down.

As you said it, DE choose when and who to attack so Banshees, Nids w/ lash, GK w/Halberd, etc will be done at your discression. Even with SN&I you would be best served letting your shooting handle them and focus on other targets of oppurtunity.



Back to top Go down
Urien Rakarth
Kabalite Warrior
Urien Rakarth

Posts : 110
Join date : 2011-05-31

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 20:47

Only thing I'd add is that if you are sending the Wyches against the biggest baddest PW stacking enemy units you will not be getting that FNP save due to them ignoring armour saves, you'll get you 50% chance but that's it. Although you've given me a lot to think about in terms of viewing Wyches not as an offensive assault unit to clear objectives but to hold something up while the rest of your force outmanoeuvres them.
Back to top Go down
http://6inchmove.wordpress.com
Baron Tordeck
The Helfather
Baron Tordeck

Posts : 1872
Join date : 2011-02-28
Location : In your Nightmares

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 22:55

@Fletch wrote:
@Baron Tordeck wrote:

If your playing DE its not giving them the benefit of the doubt that they charged. DE will be the ones charging, no ifs, ands, or buts, or your playing them wrong. We are too quick to get caught with our pants down.

As you said it, DE choose when and who to attack so Banshees, Nids w/ lash, GK w/Halberd, etc will be done at your discression. Even with SN&I you would be best served letting your shooting handle them and focus on other targets of oppurtunity.
Sometimes you cant use your shooting and need to throw that tarpit in front of their deathstar in order to survive. Wychs are the only thing we have that can tarpit and they put best with Nets.

_________________

Forum Rules - Read and Obey - Or Else!
Back to top Go down
a1elbow
Kabalite Warrior
a1elbow

Posts : 100
Join date : 2011-05-29

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 18 2011, 00:13

I think it is highly incorrect to categorize Wyches as offensive. Wych cult? Yes, they are. In a shooty list? They are speed bumps, tarpits, etc which can win a combat against a lot of troops (which is why they are amazing). Tarpits-yes, but not lumps, they are more accurately a trou de loup.

For example, TH/SS Assault squads. You could put your Blasters into these guys, but what is better is throwing a Wych squad in them and fight the rest of the SM force with your expensive Lance weapons. Unless lead by Vulkan or whatever various character(s), they aren't meant to be beaters. They are there to take up space and make you sweat, some players will overzealously attempt to wipe them out. Tie them up with a squad that costs a in the low 100s and you are doing something pretty swell. Other squads have similar uses, and various degrees of aggression come with their use (Thundercav, command squads with solid inv saves, Dreds because the AV12 is a waste to shoot at versus other things, plus more). Mostly, I feel like DE shooting is weakest against squads who soak up elite firepower. We can hose hordes and MCs with poison, blast apart low W MCs and knock out high or low AV tanks at value with Lance weaponry, but against things which don't care about either we need something more simple to take them out of the game.

Now, I personally don't really like any of the Wych weapons (if they were 5 points I might consider them), so I won't stick up for the S&I, but if you won't consider Wyches to be a defensive squad at all, you probably won't like their one defensive weapon.
Back to top Go down
Aroshamash
Sybarite
Aroshamash

Posts : 326
Join date : 2011-05-14
Location : Sydney

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 19 2011, 05:26

The problem is though, Fletch, that we don't want the Wyches to kill as much as possible. We're fragile little things, and Wyches only really have protection in cc, so wiping or breaking the enemy on the charge is a bad thing, because you're going to get shot a lot in their turn. Instead, you want a nice balance of offense and defense so that you can break them on their turn, leaving you free to charge something else next turn. In this sense, the shardnets help protect you until it's safe to break them.

_________________
It's our galaxy, you just die in it...
Back to top Go down
Fletch
Kabalite Warrior
Fletch

Posts : 131
Join date : 2011-06-13

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 20 2011, 19:39

I can agree Wyches maybe useful in a defensive role, especially for those who chose to play at arms length.

With that said I still feel the SN&I is over-priced for what it delivers. If it was akin to Dire's Defend and its affect worked against the entire unit not just against models in btb then I could agree.

I see why people may choose them but I still believe unless you really have nothing left to spend points on you would be better served spending those points making your shooty units more shooty or some other upgrade (Grenades, Unit Leader Upgrades, Weapons, Vehicle Bling, etc.)

For their points even in a defensive role the love might be a tad bit strong, and I am at least happy to read I'm not alone in that opinion.

Back to top Go down
Darklight
Sybarite
Darklight

Posts : 384
Join date : 2011-05-27
Location : Stavanger

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 08:58

Well, as they are a tarpit unit they are best served with wound reducing weapons imo.

The problem is today you are playing MEQ teams anywhere you turn, and then the Wyches isnt going to kill much, however their best way to win a CC is on SA.

From personal experience I have won more CC with Shardnets and it really comes down to me reducing attacks from stuff like powerfirsts/weapons etc. If I dont suffer wounds, or 1-2 I will usualy win the CC making it possible for me to SA and with I6 we are going to win that.

It might look cooler on paper with takeing 6 wounds insteed of 4 (just an example). But you might loose two more units because of it. Making it less chance your oponent fails leadership, also making it harder for the wyches to kick butt in next CC.

I also love it because it does make the Wyches able to kill IC/MC, something Incubi's arnt.

_________________
Plays Dark Eldar, Eldar and Harlequins.
If you are from norway, check out www.drittunger.no
Back to top Go down
Xelkireth
In Exile
avatar

Posts : 1065
Join date : 2011-05-14

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 15:37

@Local_Ork wrote:
So -1 attack to all dudes in b2b is useless on tarpit?


Ok...
Pretty much sums up my thoughts. They're a tarpit and denying attacks is epic.
Back to top Go down
ThePhish
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 66
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : Birmingham, AL

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 23:02

Wyches are absolutely tarpit. Base wyches can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Give them a pain token and they're harder to exterminate than cockroaches. At S3, they don't kill much of anything. They are agoniser or haywire delivery systems.

Wyches with SN&I should be thrown at MC's and IC's or squads with an IC. Bloodbrides with 3 SN&I should be escorts for an Archon to Assassinate IC's and MC's.

You make sure when you move your wyches/bride that your Archon is out front flanked left and right by the SN&I. Move your Archon base to base with a MC or enemy IC, then put the SN&I in b2b with the IC, then surround your Archon with the rest of your unit so that your Archon is only in b2b w/ the enemy IC and your Archon can't be touched. Then kill the IC and MC now that they've lost a 2 or 3 of their base attacks. If your archon has a clone field, you can negate up to 3 more attacks. There aren't many IC's that have more than 6 attacks and most have fewer. On top of that, they still have to roll and are less likely to do any damage with 1 or 2 attacks. Shadow fields still work well in this setup also.

It does take a lot of movement finesse, but can still be effective if it only works partially. Same thing goes for assaulting Dreadnoughts. If you don't kill it in 1 round, it doesn't have any attacks, so it's locked in and you get to keep pecking at it.

Back to top Go down
Local_Ork
Fleshsculptor
Local_Ork

Posts : 1500
Join date : 2011-05-26
Location : Near good fight!

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 21 2011, 23:20

Also note that most units have more than 1 attack, even without charge due to pistol+CCW.
And You certainly want them in front of unit so guys will be all over them (...) when "pile in".

_________________
Shardnet Love? TattoosigtlShardnet Love? TattoosigseShardnet Love? Tattoosigow
"Most vile thing you can read. Ever." - Our Forum Rules
Back to top Go down
SinisterPlank
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 80
Join date : 2011-06-23

Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 24 2011, 23:19

Tacticswise, I'm pretty fresh to this army, so I can only give a fairly untested oppinion, but I have three reasons for always taking 1 SN&I and 1 HG for my wyches.

#1 Every unit I face generally has a unit leader of some sort, with some manner of special melee weapon and more than 1 attack, dropping that attack generally means one less save to fail, and sience I roll 10 man squads, I every save I can avoid is good. In short, one 2+ to wound from a powerfist less in each fight is worth 10 pts in my book.

#2 Yes, they're excelent for holding up units, but being the only scoring unit I generally play with, I don't want them to soak damage and eventually die. Sience most enemy squads I run into tend to have a single special melee weapon model, 1 SN is enough, and the HG gives me alittle more of a chance of coming out on top.

#3 The Wych Special Weapons are visually pleasing additions, and very important to the fluff of the unit, wich makes me feel good when I use them. They up the variety of the unit, wich makes me love my life.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




Shardnet Love? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Shardnet Love?   Shardnet Love? I_icon_minitime

Back to top Go down
 
Shardnet Love?
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

COMMORRAGH TACTICA

 :: Drukhari Tactics
-
Jump to: