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PostSubject: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 24 2013, 20:34

say we put trueborn in a venom, and deepstrike them. what BS would they be using? is it like a normal deep strike where they fire at full BS?

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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 24 2013, 22:43

Deepstrike or retro fire jets ? Big difference.

Deepstriking vehicles count as having moved at cruising speed, and the passengers may disembark within 6 inches counting as having moved. So full BS once disembarked unless they are carrying heavy weapons. Only having the Duke as an HQ choice gives us this option.

Retrofire jets do not allow disembarking, the vehicle counts as having moved at cruising speed, meaning all shots from embarked models are snap shots ( unmodifiable BS1) and you are stuck in there for a turn.

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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 25 2013, 12:54

Any reason not to put 4 blaster born in venoms like .... 3 or 4 of them and deep strike behind enemy tanks? I know it's the point of that I'm sure, but why is it not widely used? Am I missing something?

Do they have to disembark to get full bs?

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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 25 2013, 13:34

@doomseer11b wrote:
Any reason not to put 4 blaster born in venoms like .... 3 or 4 of them and deep strike behind enemy tanks? I know it's the point of that I'm sure, but why is it not widely used? Am I missing something?

Do they have to disembark to get full bs?

Yes, they need to disembark but retrofire jets prevent them doing so. Take the Duke on the other hand. He allows us to deep strike all our skimmers and doesn't have the restrictions of retrofire jets.

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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 25 2013, 14:38

I guess I'm wondering why we don't do this all the time? Deep striking blaster born? That's almost broken lol. And we should still be able to fire both splinter cannons on the venoms right? And duke really compliments the wyches really well and let's us have 2d6 when determining drugs???? Not sure how everyone plays embarked blasterborn, but I usually have a problem the first turn getting them in a good position to do anything anyway. And thanks for the quick answers

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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 27 2013, 19:29

personally i like the idea of deep strike in enemy lines but i usually do it with a gun boat or don't risk a blaster archon who is my main reason for taking blaster born. i suspect it isn't widely preached as its a risk and competitive players sticking to the numbers wouldn't risk the probability of it going bad as you are risking the price of the enemy tank to take out said tank and based on placement have varied degrees of mishap while the speed of our vehicles is a more statistically reliable route. Personally I like taking the duke and like being able to call it on the spot based on the variable present in that battle aka enemy army, terrain and if i feel like playing like i have coconut size nuts

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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 27 2013, 19:44

deep striking is dangerous, thats why we dont do it every game Smile

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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2013, 00:09

i get it, but there isnt as much danger as we like to think. Obviously everything is subjective to the board we are playing on. But, we can scatter a total of 12 inches. Just make sure we are at least 12 inches from any impassible, or enemy units. I mean, we land, we get out and move 6 inches and shoot. That is still a 24 inch threat range. I just really like the idea, of being able to attack from both sides. the front and the back. Itll take our enemy by surprise and really make them target prioritize. Most likely allowing our bullet magnet raiders to make it to their respective destination. I like to think that anything we can do to take our opponents by surprise and to delay whatever their goal is, is a good way to go usually. Im sure, you pro players are correct with your take on this as you are much much better than i. but I almost gave up on wyches until i thought about this. I havent gotten to try it. I have a 1200 point match coming up, i will let you guys know how it goes. really dont want to give up on the wyches but they have proven useless almost every game i have played as they get shot down every time.

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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2013, 03:19

Don't give up on those wyches. Deepstrike is too risky, as deepstriking into somewhere completely safe is honestly not going to be any tougher than reliably getting into that spot with move + aethersails + flat out. That's 32-42"! And then you get the 4+ jimk, and should be able to screen if not block LoS with terrain. Turn 2, another 6 + 6 + shoot and charge. You're in guaranteed unless you get shot down. Compare that to a questionable turn 2 arrival, plus scatter risk. No question in my mind.

My every game go to unit these days is a Raider with sails and dissies loaded with 8 Wyches (including Hek + PGL + Agonizer with Haem + Shattershard (+power axe if points allow) and Succubus + HWG + Agonizer.

The Haem disembarks separately from the Wyches, leaving the token behind and making sure to aim at the flank of the target unit that contains the sarge/IC, while the rest of the squad targets the other flank. He shattershards his flank, often killing off the challenge fodder. Then he charges, 9/10 times soaking overwatch. He dies or doesn't. It usually ends up irrelevant. Then the Wych unit charges in. It's still 9 strong with a token. Everyone strikes first, and there are a hell of a lot of ap3 wounds to toss around, plus all the saves that the regular Wyches force. I frequently wipe 3+ units of MEQ with this, and can often get an objective and linebreaker simultaneously.

If you are pointing this unit at anything with a 2+ you're doing it wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2013, 07:12

On the first turn your deep-striking trueborn will be off the table, so neither they nor their venom will get to shoot at anything. On the second turn, if they arrive from reserves (always a risk), and if they don't scatter away or crash on arrival (also a risk), they will still only get to use snap fire, to little effect unless you get really lucky. The enemy of course will then get to shoot at them for full effect. Then, on the third turn, assuming they are still alive, your trueborn will finally get to shoot at something, after half a match of doing absolutely nothing except getting shot at. Meanwhile your opponent will enjoy several turns of not being shot at by blasterborn and a venom, which he will use by actually shooting at whatever you do have on the table and killing it before the blasterborn even arrive.

I wouldn't call that 'almost broken', unless you mean 'almost making things too easy for the opposition'!

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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 28 2013, 12:55

Like I said, I'm sure y'all are right. I'd like to think this is how the DE would actually do it. Maybe have a couple ships coming at you from the front and BOOM!!!! Some crazy blood thirsty true born knock all your long range weapons out before you can even think! But yeah like I said, it's most likely not very probable everything would come together perfectly. I guess if we had an autarch it could help... Lol I'm prone to gimmicky stuff I guess. Thanks for the input fellow Archons Smile

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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 29 2013, 00:17

i wrote some responses and than thought to quote Sun Tzu at the end but ill just leave the quotes from him as my word are but a shadow of his.

“All warfare is based on deception.” “Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”“When the enemy is relaxed, make them toil. When full, starve them. When settled, make them move.”
and the best for this
“Engage people with what they expect; it is what they are able to discern and confirms their projections. It settles them into predictable patterns of response, occupying their minds while you wait for the extraordinary moment — that which they cannot anticipate.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 29 2013, 17:15

the thing is are the chance of sacrificing your trueborn to a mishap, or not even being in range to shoot even worth it??? Ontop of that your placing your trueborn behind enemy lines, meaning they are most likely dead the next turn (especially when they have to get out of their vehicle to do anything worth wild). And then they might not even come in T2...

Yes it is a tactical option, but dont count on it

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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 29 2013, 19:11

Not sure it is worth the risk for the pay out. Just taking the unit itself and trying to maximizing its chance of pulling off the maneuver without wasting points you are looking at:

4 Trueborn- all with Blasters
Venom- Retro fire jets, Splinter cannon.
190pts.

You may ask why I didn't put a dracon with blast pistol in here and it is because the average scatter puts you out of range for the blast pistol so it is not worth the extra 32 points on a squad that is going to more than likely die. I did put the extra splinter cannon on the vehicle even though it will most likely die on the opponents turn. This is because you can shoot the venom at a different target, infantry, and shooting the splinter cannon will usually kill 1 model and that will usually offset the cost of the cannon itself.

Results would be:

1. Scatter- This will on the average be 7" 2/3rds of the time. Proper placement will mitigate some of your chances of misshaping, but this is never guaranteed. If you do mishap it is bad for you half of the time and even the half that is good for you delays you and gives the opponent another turn with the target shooting at your forces. Basically count on scattering more than often than not.

2. Snapfire- since they can not leave the transport as retrofire jets keep you from doing so you will be snapfiring your weapons. This means only 1/6th of the shots will hit. with only 4 blaster you will get .667 hits or hit 30.56% of the time. In best case scenario you hit AV10 so 1/6th of the time you will miss, 5/6ths of the time you will take a HP, and 2/3rds of the time you will pin to be able to possible destroy the vehicle. That means you will remove a hull point 25.36% of the time and pin the vehicle 20.04% of the time. Of the pins you do get only 1/3rd of them will destroy the vehicle the rest will do something but this will not be enough damage to make up the points you invested in this squad. Basically you will kill a tank under optimal conditions on the average 6.81% of the time per shot or .2724 kills per turn. That is not a percentage so it would take 4 turns to likely kill the vehicle, 3 actually since you will remove HP at a faster rate. Add to this that you may or may not come in turn two 50% chance and you should be starting to see your chances of killing a vehicle starting to get slimmer.

Now you can increase this by adding the Duke to your army, this means you are now spending 367 pts. remember no jets this time, but we can add the dracon with blast pistol.

1. Scatter- now we can get out of our vehicle and move 6" after the scatter putting us in better range. but this still doesn't do better than the back armor results above yet as I gave you that one last time. but what it does mean is we can put a blast pistol into the squad for an extra shot to maximize our chances.

2. Shooting- Now we get to shot at our full BS this is good but it cost us a lot of points so we better make it count. now we hit 1/2 the time. With the extra pistol shot we get 2.5 hits, much better. Against AV10, best scenario, we remove a hull point 5/6ths of the time and pin 2/3ths of the time, so, 2.07 hits will remove a HP or
1.67 will pin. Since HP will be usually 3 or more in most targets vehicles we will just look at the pins and with 1/3rd of them killing the vehicle we kill the vehicle about 11.15% of the time or .5575 kills. basically a kill every other turn.

To me this will never be enough of a chance to make the points of the squad back and in a army like DE you can't really afford to take risks, especially since you can get similar results with options that are far less points prohibitive and have a higher rate of survival.

Ravanger- flickerfield, nightshields
125pts.

1. Scatter- no need to deep strike, might as well have this on the board firing every turn, most tank killing weapons, and I said most not all are 36" range, with the nightshields we are out of their range but within our DL's range, even if they move to get in range they put themselves on a snapfire, so watch your distances. Also to make this even better target the things that have 48" so you can use this outdistancing on later turns to great effect.

2. Shooting- BS 4, hit 50% of the time, lance on any armor is 5+ to pin so pin 16.65% of the time and kill 5.56% of the time. I calculated this on max AV not least with AV10 you get kills at the same rate as blaster born 11.15% of the time but only get 3 shots versus 5, thus resulting in .3345 kills. We can shot every turn not losing 1-2 turns waiting for reserves, the shots are at a better distance increasing the sustainability of the unit, and it costs far less points. For the cost of the one blaster born squad you could almost take two of these.

Well those are some of my thoughts, in the end play whatever makes you happy with your list and whatever you have fun with, that's what truly counts. What makes me happy is watching my opponent rush to the bathroom crying as I smash his hopes and dreams against a rock, but to each their own. BTW I'm kidding or maybe not. Smile

Thanks,
Red

P.S. As a non-math major, but am decent in the subject, I am sure my math is close but may not be 100% accurate I don't think it is wrong but calculate if you don't think this is right please double check me I never take offence to learning more about the game especially my force.
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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 31 2013, 19:51

as i said math hammer isn't in the tactics favor.but it can catch opponent off guard and get them to make a mistake aka divert forces from a target or catch them unprepared to properly counter.
im not talking about doing this to the kid that just started his first army or every game but against your regular opponents as Sun Tzu put it there are times to do extraordinary thing. but even if many things fit into place sometimes its best to call it off and drop them in a safe place. for it to also work don't talk about it with your group, don't discus it than all of a sudden put duke in your list and expect it to work. alternative talk about it and put duke all of a sudden in your list and never do it but act like you're going to, its a tool to manipulate your opponent one way or another. real world comparisons that kinda in a loose sense apply d-day paratroopers and the Inchon landing come to mind.

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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 02 2013, 01:38

Suppose your opponent doesn't get rattled and doesn't make a mistake, then what?

Any plan that relies on your opponent reacting as you want them to react... is a bad plan.

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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 02 2013, 03:28

wasn't the duke's deepstrike thing FAQ'd to every vehicle counts as being armed with retrofire jets instead of normal deep striking?

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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 02 2013, 05:32

Just took a look at the FAQ and that does not seem to be the case.

Red
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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 02 2013, 14:08

@colinsherlow wrote:
wasn't the duke's deepstrike thing FAQ'd to every vehicle counts as being armed with retrofire jets instead of normal deep striking?

That was in the pancake edition/ Stelek's revised FAQ... both of which arent legal.

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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 02 2013, 18:02

One small correction to red's math...

At BS 4 we hit slightly more than 50% of the time. We hit on 3+ which would be 67% of the time.

Other than that a well crafted example of the statistical odds! Good job!
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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeTue Apr 02 2013, 20:20

I "Math hammer" in excel.

B1=A1/6*(7-DRN*)

DRN = Dice Roll Needed.

So
Hits = Shots / 6 * (7-3)
Wounds = Hits / 6 * (7-4)

Working in sixths is a nightmare, make the computer do it Smile

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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 03 2013, 06:01

@Silverglade wrote:
One small correction to red's math...

At BS 4 we hit slightly more than 50% of the time. We hit on 3+ which would be 67% of the time.

Other than that a well crafted example of the statistical odds! Good job!

Ah! I always miss something, Smile

Thanks for the catch

@DominicJ wrote:
I "Math hammer" in excel.

B1=A1/6*(7-DRN*)

DRN = Dice Roll Needed.

So
Hits = Shots / 6 * (7-3)
Wounds = Hits / 6 * (7-4)

Working in sixths is a nightmare, make the computer do it Smile

nice.
Red

Merged two posts because of double-posting. /Mod
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PostSubject: Re: retrofire jets quesiton   retrofire jets quesiton I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 11 2013, 01:45

Well I appreciate the posts guys and girls (?). I agree with the idea that its not the best of plans for tournament play and my question on why people don't do it all the time is answered but I tend to think the same way king alcaran thinks. Might work might not, if it does would be awesome, if it doesn't well that's the rules of battle. Murphy is a jerk. But would be awesome to try and pull off in a fun home game just for bragging rights. Thanks for all the input fellow archons. Smile

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