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 Help With 1500 Points of Dark Eldar

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ShamPow1999
Hellion
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PostSubject: Help With 1500 Points of Dark Eldar   Help With 1500 Points of Dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 24 2013, 02:44

1500 Point Dark Eldar Army

HQ: Haemonculus

Elites: 4 Incubi
4 Klaives, Venom w/ Dual Splinter Cannons

Troops: 5 Wyches
Haywire Grenades, Venom w/ Dual Splinter Cannons

5 Wyches
Haywire Grenades, Venom w/ Dual Splinter Cannons

10 Kabalite Warriors
Splinter Cannon, Raider w/ DL, SR

10 Kabalite Warriors
Splinter Cannon, Raider w/ DL, SR

Fast Attack: 6 Reaver Jetbikes
2 Heat Lances

6 Reaver Jetbikes
2 Heat Lances

Heavy Support: Ravager w/ Night Shields

Ravager w/ Night Shields

Razorwing Jetfighter w/ 2 DCs, Splinter Cannon, 4 Monosythe Missiles




I will be playing against an Imperial Guard player who uses 2 tanks with armor value 14,13, ? and a valkyrie allied with space marines. He also uses 2 lascannon teams and some infantry as elites. Additionally, I will be playing against a Mech Space Marine who uses several tanks with several Techmarines with Thunder Fire Cannons. he likes to use one StormRaven Gunship.

Is is true that wyches with haywire grenades are better than warriors with a blaster in 6th edition? My friends and I have actually just switched to 6th. I understand that reavers are really good in 6th. I would appreciate any comments and improvements.

thanks!
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Pauks818
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PostSubject: Re: Help With 1500 Points of Dark Eldar   Help With 1500 Points of Dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 25 2013, 13:53

Your list is very similar to my 1500 pt competitive list. Now take what I say with a grain of salt as I have not yet actually played a game of 6th, but I have spent the last 5-6 weeks reading just about all I can about it (rulebook, FAQs, tacticas, etc.) & trying to make one bad DE list.

Quote :
Is is true that wyches with haywire grenades are better than warriors with a blaster in 6th edition? My friends and I have actually just switched to 6th
Absolutely! *IF* they can get into assault & that can be, at times a big if. Theres also the issue of what they do after they glance-lock that tank. What if they are too far to consolidate into another unit & get stuck in the open where they can be easily wiped by enemy fire next turn. Are they worth 125 pts for a 1 trick pony? I usually go with 3 blasterborn in a venom rather than blaster warriors. It costs I think about 10-20 pts more but you get three times the blaster shots. Im a little nervouse running these though, they seem like they will be the HUGEST fire magnets, but many DE vets swear by them.

Quote :
I understand that reavers are really good in 6th.
I agree, I've always loved reavers, but back in 3rd when i used to play, they pretty much blew. Now with the new bladevane rules & assault turn movement, they seem quite versatile. However, they are also one of the most expensive units in your entire list & due to a number of reasons (small unit sizes, huge movement ability, AT weapons, short range) I think they will be a priority target for your opponent. I try to capitalize on this by keepng the units small & very focused. usually just 3 reavers with 1 blaster (I went with the blaster over the HL for the extra range & thus likely better survivability) I hope the small unit size will still make them able to do what I want them to (draw alot of fire as they zip around, take pot shots at vehicles & if they survive to the end, deny objectives) I hope the versatility & speed of these units will scare my opponent into shooting at them rather than the more expensive blasterborn who are much more effective but much more fragile.

Of course if you've read any of Mushkilla's battle reports, you see a conflicting view on how to run reavers. First off I must say hats off to Mushkilla for making 27 reavers look so dang sexy! When they do their job in his BRs they do it VERY well. However I think (judging only from his BRs as I have never played a game with 27 reavers) that about as often as his reavers win him the game, they also seem to do nothing but get destroyed or run off the board. & at about 330-350 pts per squad of 9 reavers, if one runs or is wiped out that represents a significant loss of your entire force. Thats why I believe the most strategically flexible way to play reavers is to do so mindful of how much you are spending on them & to keep them small & hyper focused tactically.

(the first list I made had 18 reavers as well seeing as I love the models & their crazy speed, but I just didnt think I would be able to consistently win with them)

Finally, the two forces you are playing seem to make you need to split your army to fit two roles in an unexpected way. Tank heavy marines & footslogging guard. Looking at your list it seems geared to deal with the marines - plenty of DLs, some beefy CC squads, and plenty of AT options. However against footslogging guard I think the best & cheapest weapon (apart from asault) is by far the splinter cannon, but you only have 4! Plus the incubi & wyches with HWG are complete overkill IMO. He only has two tanks (plus a flyer) and no save better than a 4+. If I were you, I would shave down your more expensive units (reavers & possibly Incubi) & invest in some more anti light infantry & more CC squads that are equally effective vs both marines & guard (probably wyches)

Im not sure if this is a good idea by any means, but in my list at 1500 pts I pretty much avoid unit upgrades unless absolutely necessary for the unit to kill its intended target & instead invested in as many minimum size cheap units with transports as I can.

But thats just me.
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ShamPow1999
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PostSubject: Re: Help With 1500 Points of Dark Eldar   Help With 1500 Points of Dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 25 2013, 19:24

Thank you for responding.

Instead of running the two reaver squads should I just run 1 reaver squad and 1 scourge squad. That would make it so there is at least more anti infantry. To be honest, I don't see the purpose in Scourges. They cost the same as Reavers. For 22 points more you could have a 6 Reaver Jetbikes.

He uses yarick so i was hoping to kill him right of the bat wiith the ravagers. He proxies so .... Basically, I have no isea what to do. I could use 60 warriors foot slogging but thats no fun.

What other elites could you I use?
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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Help With 1500 Points of Dark Eldar   Help With 1500 Points of Dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 25 2013, 20:45

Well, you are using an Haemonculus as an HQ and not using him to unlock Wracks as troops, is that 'cos you don't have the models? Against infantry guard I would definitely want a couple of Raiders full of Wracks to get right up in his face turn 1. Go flat out with them and draw the fire of his whole army, he HAS to make them no.1 priority. Remember they are T4 with FNP as standard so half as likely to die from exploding Raiders as our other troops. I always use special markers for blown up Raiders to mark the area terrain they end up inside, but a piece of card in the right shape rectangle will do, so that's a coversave followed by FNP. Another thing to consider is, make sure both those raiders have Grisly trophies and are 6" maximum apart after going flat-out. This will give re-rolls on leadership tests provided one of the Raiders survives, and with 4+ Jink that is quite likely given lasguns can't just glance them to death at S3. This makes it much less likely to be pinned or fall-back. Also note that an Acothyst ( Wrack sarge) is one point of LD better than a non ancient Haemo, for the same purpose. Now, when you assault consider challenging, if your opponent accepts then you are practically guaranteed to stay in combat through his next turn, if the odds of destroying the whole unit are too high, consider attempting a multiple assault. Remember, Wracks with 2 pain tokens have furious charge, so a unit with a haemonculus hit guard on 3's, wounding on 3's with re-rolls, even against marines on charging turn, Try to swamp his lines, tying up as many units as possible at once, remember, losing charge bonus attacks for disordered (multiple) assaults isn't necessarily a bad thing in these circumstances. You just need to prevent large blocks of guard from shooting. If you can pull this off you should have less trouble picking off other parts of his force at will. I have had success with this tactic against guard, static gunline codex marines, tau and even orks. If your opponent uses a lot of proxies then it should be ok for you to do the same if you have no 'real' WRack models, just so you can try it out. Hope this helps.
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PostSubject: Re: Help With 1500 Points of Dark Eldar   Help With 1500 Points of Dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 25 2013, 22:54

Thank you. I thought that in 6th edition assault dark eldar armies were bad because of over watch. wouldn't wracks just die before they reach the targeted prey?

What was the list you played when you won against the other players. In 5th edition i always thought coven type armies were just so slow.

Speaking of slow, I was thinking to expand on my army by adding allies. Maybe some tau fire warriors for some high strength fire?
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PostSubject: Re: Help With 1500 Points of Dark Eldar   Help With 1500 Points of Dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 25 2013, 23:42

Well, you can see my list in the army lists section, called Rakarth Rampage. I understand what you mean by the overwatch thing but that is why I have modelled scattered wreckage as described on page 74 under Explodes!. Wreckage/ rubble is described on page 105 as giving a 4+ coversave if the model's obscured behind it, otherwise a 5+ for area terrain. Wracks get FNP if below S8 shots, so even 5+ followed by 5+ is a decent save, and if, like me, you have modelled destroyed Raider areas with sticking up sails and other bits spare from the Raider kit you can get at least the front 3/4 models behind these elements for a 4+ followed by FNP. I realize it's taking a chance but with these sort of static gunline armies I personally prefer to get up there and give it a go. Even if you max out on Warrior squads with cannons and Ravagers to try to sit back yourself and trade shots, I doubt it will be successful . 4/5 Wracks will still make short work of 15-20 guardsmen on the charge. As far as the slow thing goes, I'm talking about getting up there with flat-out as close as possible, don't want to be failing those charges through lack of fleet!
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Pauks818
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PostSubject: Re: Help With 1500 Points of Dark Eldar   Help With 1500 Points of Dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 25 2013, 23:51

To be honest, I dont see the purpose in scourges either, I think they are a jip for what they can put out. I think you would be much better off investing those points in more troops options in venoms - with an average cost of 32.5 pts per splinter cannon, venoms are the cheapest option for putting more splinters on the field, plus they can move 12" & shoot.

As far as what to put in the venoms, I would say it depends. I crunched some mathhammer recently for my list to decide 2 things - which had a greater dmg output & which was more survivable in CC: wracks or wyches. After much deliberating, it came down to what I wanted them to do: tank nasty CC squads or destroy squads not oriented for combat. I forget the exact figures but I found that against an avg 10 man guard squad w/ cc sergeant, that both a naked 5 woman which squad & a naked 5 man wrack squad would both wipe the floor with them - although the wracks would do significantly better. But lets think about this for a second, if your unit is small, has a six up save, regardless of Fnp or T4 you can expect to be decimated by most shooting - so do we really want to charge & wipe a squad immediately & then hopefully sweep into another unit - otherwise we are stuck in the open to be chewed up in your enemy's shooting phase? Or would you rather wipe the squad the combat phase after you charge so you can then move, shoot & assault a new target taking advantage of your fleet rule?

Also these wreckage cover saves you are talking about only take effect if their transport has been destroyed, after which they are most likely gonna hoof it for the enemy's lines, so they will benefit from that cover for only the other shooting directed at them that turn after they lose their transport. But assuming they would have to lose their transport to use this save, each one has already suffered a hot from the transports destruction before they get cover saves.

The line starts to blur when dealing with vanilla tac marines - do you want a dmg squad or a tank squad? up to you & your tactics.

But against termies or assault marines, the preference becomes clear - both wracks & wyches are depressingly poor at killing a termie squad of the same size. Wyches, however, are about twice as survivable. Assault squads, for all intents & purposes = wracks. lets take alook at what they do in combat. AMs get 2 attacks, wracks get 2 attacks. AMs hit & wound wracks on a 4+, wracks hit & wound AMs on a 4+, AMs get a 3+ sv, wracks get a 6+ & a 5+ sv - statistically equal to a 4+ sv. So in any assault phase but the turn you charge, the AMs will outclass your wracks in assault by a hair.

It is my firm belied that the true power of DE lies in its shooting, especially in 6th & that an gnarly unit we can tie up in cc to stop from disrupting our shooting be it they devastators, assault marines or DS termies, it is completely worth it to keep them stuck as long as possible.

As for overwatch, if you put a haemy with a squad of wyches to give them FnP which I think is the only reason to take haemonuli, then they have Fnp & are behind the wracks in shooting survivability by only 1 toughness - not bad considering their prodigious CC survivability. Not to say neither of them would suffer OW casualties first, so limit its effectiveness - soften up enemy units with shooting first, or charge a single unit with multiple units of yours.

So my suggestion: drop the scourges in favor of some more small eych squads in venom & split those reavers into 2 squads of 3.
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PostSubject: Re: Help With 1500 Points of Dark Eldar   Help With 1500 Points of Dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 26 2013, 00:02

That's all good stuff. I was really talking specifically about Infantry guard and how to draw firepower to a unit thaey can't ignore and which stands a decent chance of surviving in sufficient strength to make an assault impact. This is of course with the purpose of allowing other units to shoot with more impunity for the turn the Wracks become target #1 and any following turns in which the Wracks lock guard squads in combat. As I said in my previous reply, it's often best to multi-assault with them in order to deny the maximum amount of shooting from the maximum number of units at once. But, hey, it's just my opinion and I generally have some weird ideas about how the game is played! I don't even have any Reavers for Khaines sake, or even a single Ravager!
#doingitdifferently
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PostSubject: Re: Help With 1500 Points of Dark Eldar   Help With 1500 Points of Dark Eldar I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 07 2013, 18:25

Ok after testing with other players, I have decided to update my army with eldar allies.

1500 Point Dark Eldar Army w/ Eldar Allies

Dark Eldar:

HQ: Haemonculus

Elites: Kabalite Trueborn
4 Blasters, Venom w/ Dual Splinter Cannons

Troops: 10 Kabalite Warriors
Blaster, Splinter Cannon, Raider w/ NS, SR

10 Kabalit Warriors
Blaster, Splinter Cannon, Raider w/ NS, SR

Heavy Support:

Ravager w/ 3 Lances, NS

Ravager w/ 3 Lances, Ns

Razorwing Jetfighter w/ 2 Dissies, Splinter Cannon, FF, 4 MonoSythe Missiles

Eldar:

HQ; Farseer w/ Doom, Singing Spear

Troops: 9 Dire Avengers, Exarch w/ Dual Catapults
Wave Serpent w/ Twin-Linked Shuriken Cannon, Twin-Linked BrightLance

Heavy Support: 3 War Walkers each w/ 2 Scatter Lasers

my goal was to include a lot of strength 6 and 4 as that is what we lack. How do you think this list will do? Now I am facing a variety of every army as I am going to my local shop. Majority of people there use a mix of tanks and infantry but more infantry. Thank-you.
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PostSubject: Re: Help With 1500 Points of Dark Eldar   Help With 1500 Points of Dark Eldar I_icon_minitime

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