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that 9uy
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PostSubject: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 20 2013, 06:03

So i know we have all seen the hundreds of posts about how to kit out trueborn in venoms but most of them only talk about having 3 in there. i was wondering if i were to fill the venom with 5 trueborn and give them 3 blasters should the other 2 be DLs or SCs?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 20 2013, 10:27

@that 9uy wrote:
So i know we have all seen the hundreds of posts about how to kit out trueborn in venoms but most of them only talk about having 3 in there. i was wondering if i were to fill the venom with 5 trueborn and give them 3 blasters should the other 2 be DLs or SCs?

The reason most people avoid this is that you want the Venom to be able to move. If it does, the Dark Lances can only snapshot. The Splinter Cannon can still fire 4 shots but has to fire at the same target as the Blasterborn, which will usually be a waste.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 20 2013, 13:57

basically you want to keep your trueborn cheap and effective. When you add extra bodies above the amount you exactly need to get the most out of your weapon of choice (so 3 trueborn for 2 dark lances or 2 splintercannons, or 3~4 for blasters) your adding points that are a waste. You arent saving them due to the higher chance of getting more wounds during an explosion, and normally the other weapon is wasted either due to snapfiring, or having a different purpose (blasters for AT while cannons/carbines/rifles are AI)

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King Alacran
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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeWed Mar 20 2013, 22:23

so you don't run a extra body in blaster born squads like 4 in a 3 blaster squad or so forth. maybe im set in a marine devastator mind set of a extra wound saves points and allows more shooting.

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exsquared
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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 21 2013, 01:45

I find there's a big difference between a 3+ T4 ablative wound and a 5+ T3 one. It's not much harder for your opponent to inflict that extra wound and you have then lost more points worth of models than you otherwise would have.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 21 2013, 03:19

I started writing and then realized I'd answered this already once;

https://www.thedarkcity.net/t1027-unit-size-msu-and-full-size-squads-for-de

The relevant points are under the heading 'Exploding Raider/Venom syndrome' and explain squad size and explosions (though I think i did that under 5th so had the weaker explosions - but the underlying core concept is very much the same and should help you understand what an 'ablative wound' does or does not actually get you).

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sgb69
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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 21 2013, 03:26

Another point to bring up, is that Trueborn are expensive and fragile. If you put too many points into a fragile shooty unit, your opponent will have an easier time knowing where to aim their guns in order to hurt you the most.

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeThu Mar 21 2013, 07:45

Go as cheap as you can in the Venom, 3-min with Blasters and you're off!

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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 22 2013, 01:30

I have had some success with a unit of 5 TB with 2 DL. One thing I always do is take advantage of the free swap to cc weapon/splinterpistol on the 3 non DL toting guys. The advantages to this many and this load out are that you can use the 3 'bods' to create a triangle around your two DL guys, meaning that no matter which direction the shot comes from there is never a possibility that one of you DL guys is going down to a single shot, the cc weapon is always closest to the firer. The other thing is that of course the unit has 13 attacks standard and 18 on the charge, meaning they can make a better fight of it if need be. If shooting at fliers and needing 6's to hit there also is no disadvantage to going to ground either, so you can get a good coversave. I use a similar tactic sometimes with Wracks with a Hexrifle Acothyst, you're really looking for the precision shot and the rend (6 followed by 6) to remove from play a particular enemy, so going to ground behind a bit of ruin, within that ruin's area terrain base is golden for a 2+ cover with no detriment to the units effectiveness. It's a scoring unit too. Wink
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cymera
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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 04 2013, 01:34

Anybody ever tried 3 TB with only 2 Blasters?

If you have the free elite slot and are tight on points it does what warriors do better for only 6 pts more, and isn't as obvious a target for enemy fire as larger blasterborn squads.
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sgb69
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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 04 2013, 08:08

@ Cymera: At that point I'd be sorely tempted to give them Haywire Grenades. Partially so that third guy has something to do in the shooting phase and partially to let them follow up with an assault if need be.

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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 04 2013, 11:33

That sounds not dissimilar to the EMP commandos of old with Tau - small squad with EMP grenades (poor man's haywire) and pulse carbines ranging forward and relying on seeming unobtrusive to nuke a tank.

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King Alacran
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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 04 2013, 16:36

wow just blew my mind with the haywire grenade idea never thought of anything other than wyches but than that pushes my idea of 5 man squad even further. given your venom survives you risk 115 (5 man squad 3 blasters and haywire grenades) for a 150+ point target. but id still question cc weapons for the rest as synergy still exists between a mobile team of blasters and Splinter rifles that isnt their with DL were you are probably the one getting charged rather than charging, however a TB with a cc weapon is far better than any guards men or fire warrior if you can make it to knifes range.

best part is it sounds like a BA unit dropped off into area terrain running and gunning

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 04 2013, 19:04

@Timatron: base floor of ruins is area terrain 5+, 3+ when gtg, ruin walls obscuring 25% of body is 4+, 3+ when gtg. Rules say you take the best save not combine them.
@Thor that is a great article, you should update it for 6th.

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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 04 2013, 22:35

Hmm, well I suppose. As far as I see it just says +2 for going to ground inside area terrain. If you are inside area terrain and your save is 4+ for the wall then I don't see that as 2 different saves, just +2 to your existing save. I can't see how that could be construed as combining anything.
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Tony Spectacular
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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 04 2013, 23:50

4+ for obscured by ruins. If on the first floor, and that first floor has a base (making it also area), 2+ for GtG.

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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 05 2013, 01:16

Exactly what I was referring to.
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Zanais
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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 05 2013, 10:16

I always play with 3 TB with only 2 blasters, blaster isnt so cheap, and usually 2 is enough to at least stun enemy vehicle. Lately Im trying rather 3 TB with 2 lances and I must say when deployed in area terrain they tend to live much longer, as is their empty venom running around.

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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 05 2013, 11:14

I worked out that two ten man devestator squads with four missiles each would kill three five man devestator squads with four missiles each.

But as others have said, T4 +3 is a lot more survivable than T3 +5

Maybe, 5 and two lances could be innocuous enough to avoid notice, in decent cover, maybe.
But 36 is pretty short range for a heavy weapon.
Especialy one in cover in your DZ

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 05 2013, 15:18

@Tony Spectacular wrote:
4+ for obscured by ruins. If on the first floor, and that first floor has a base (making it also area), 2+ for GtG.

The problem is thease are two different saves, base of ruins is area terrain 5+, obscured by ruins 4+. But i will admit the wording on the going to ground in area terrain bonus is vague enough that you could claim that the bonus can be applied to any save but it seems like it should only be meant for the area terrain cover save itself not a different cover save

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thejamppa
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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 05 2013, 17:21

I am tempted to run 2x 5 Trueborns with 3 blasters, one shredder, stick them into venom with 2 Splinter Cannons and use them to pressure enemy, hit and run and harass the flanks, take opportunity shots with blasters and due increasing number in local metal with IG allies and Tau, the shredder might be good. its cheap, its s6 small blast assault though with 12" range vs. 18" blaster so it doesn't have full synergy, but has potential of making some softer units mush, though I admit 12" range is rather close for av10 in current increasing number of rapid fire weapons, but luckily nightshields are there for that.

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sgb69
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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeFri Apr 05 2013, 18:45

@ Seshiru: hmm... my shop has just been playing gtg in ruins as a 2+. With area terrain being "Any area inside this piece of terrain" as opposed to just the bottom floor.


I look forward to getting a few games in against the new Tau. It should turn out to be an experience worth learning from. Also, Xenos are fun.

The highly mobile precision force army vs my highly mobile bucket o' specialists.


Back on topic, I've found that 3 man squads do a better job of avoiding notice than 5 man squads. Usually the other guy tends to either rush them with something like bikers, deep strike near 'em, or walk to them over the course of a game.

Against people with a medium amount of experience it feels like they can control a section of the board with the threat of their guns.

That said, I despise using our codex to do something that another codex does better. As an anti-tank Dev squadwith five guys, you're paying 110 points for two shots. Not a price in line with what everyone else pays for str 8. The Splinter Cannon trueborn team has the advantage of being able to damage the thing that's usually sent after them as well as being something uniquely DEldar.

Kinda reminds me of some Desert Fox shenanigans. Posting up machine guns in cover, winning through ambush or breaking through a weak section of line, maneuver warfare, etc.

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Hijallo
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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeSun Apr 07 2013, 15:40

I think Dark Eldar conpect in general is very simple; all complexity (if there's such thing in 40k) lies in details

And that concept, dictated by writing of the book and background: We maximize our hitting power and do not care about survivability.

Killing 5 trueborn is as easy, as killing three of them. Maximum amount of your favored guns is 4, so you take 4 bornes if you want them to fullfill tankhunters/elite troops slayers role.

If you want them to shoot at things which do not tend to have armour value or significant armour save without good invulnerable one, you can take 5, give 2 SC and 3 Carbines. Or even go for 5 carbines, if you need that 10 points somewhere else. That time each elf you add after the first also contributes for your hitting power.

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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: trueborn again.   trueborn again. I_icon_minitimeMon Apr 08 2013, 00:26

I've just been at a tournie all weekend and they were playing it that only the ground floor of a ruin was area terrain and you only got a coversave on higher levels if you were in some way obscured by part of the ruin. They also were only allowing 3+ for gtg, either/or wall +1 or area +2. I was wrong I guess. Btw, there were only two DE players there including me and allies were all counted as one level less close than normal, eg. Battle bros. becomes allies of convenience etc. I also heard there that even in Battle bros. circumstances eldar psychic powers cannot effect DE units, is this right? Oh, and I finished 26th out of 40 players with a seriously non-maximized list, the other guy had baron/hellions/reavers/ ravagers and finished close to bottom. I took wracks in raider with Archon(175pts!) and Haemie, 2 Gunboats of warriors, 5 haywire scourges, 3 blaster TB in a DSC Venom,3 DL TB, Razorwing and Talos, with......wait for it........Stingerpods! lol, who uses them? I have my reasons.......
Only won two games, nearly tabled Templars and Tau, lost badly to 'nids(meta-list) triple contemptor Codex marines and teleporting (veil) necrons. Threw away relic draw against SW, forgot consolidate could get him closer! Overall my two TB tankhunting teams did very well, especially the DL, who even snap-shot a couple fliers down! Never got to use the HW grenades on the blasterborn except against an immobilized dread. Worked then though.......
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