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doomseer11b
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri May 24 2013, 02:44

How does fleet mean they will face a lot less shots??? And I disagree, I bought a squad of incubi when I should have used that money on more grots. The problem I have faced with incubi is, you HAVE to dedicate a HQ to them with PGL. Now I understand you have to do similar for grots but the difference is, the HQ's used for grots give access to other things, they buff up other units IE. wracks as troops, S6 for grots, and they bring more pain tokens to the field for more units.

Incubi are awesome assassin units, they are good at chomping power armor. Almost too good. I find myself out in the open being shot to death. Now when my grots finish a unit off, hopefully not on my turn, they absorb so much shooting and brush it off. It's hard to insta kill them and generally stop your enemy from firing at your ravagers or less tougher squads. So all in all, they're more survivable even against AP2 weapons due to FNP and their high toughness, they are more versatile in they can blow vehicle up a lot easier, and the HQ's required for them buff other units. To me it's hands down grots all day. And to add one thing, I have noticed they play a very good psychological role, they're big and scary with lots of high S attacks, FIRE EVERYTHING!!!!

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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri May 24 2013, 03:38

@doomseer11b wrote:
How does fleet mean they will face a lot less shots??? And I disagree, I bought a squad of incubi when I should have used that money on more grots. The problem I have faced with incubi is, you HAVE to dedicate a HQ to them with PGL. Now I understand you have to do similar for grots but the difference is, the HQ's used for grots give access to other things, they buff up other units IE. wracks as troops, S6 for grots, and they bring more pain tokens to the field for more units.

Fleet helps them get across the board faster by rerolling runs. But, you shouldn't be deploying them on foot. Maybe later in the game if they get isolated.

And I don't know about the mandatory HQ for Inucbi. There are times when you could swing going last. The HQ for Grots, however, I would not risk.

Quote :
Incubi are awesome assassin units, they are good at chomping power armor. Almost too good. I find myself out in the open being shot to death. Now when my grots finish a unit off, hopefully not on my turn, they absorb so much shooting and brush it off. It's hard to insta kill them and generally stop your enemy from firing at your ravagers or less tougher squads. So all in all, they're more survivable even against AP2 weapons due to FNP and their high toughness, they are more versatile in they can blow vehicle up a lot easier, and the HQ's required for them buff other units. To me it's hands down grots all day. And to add one thing, I have noticed they play a very good psychological role, they're big and scary with lots of high S attacks, FIRE EVERYTHING!!!!


Incubi kill 2+ saves dead. That is the #1 reason to take them. WS5 is handy at making that happen, as well. But it isn't like you would know you're going to face Tau or IG and choose Incubi. But, if you wanted to transport both squads you have the option of a Venom with the Incubi, whereas you could cram 2 Grots + HQ in a Venom, so there's that as well. I don't think they really compete, except that they are both Elite slots. They have very different roles.
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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri May 24 2013, 04:03

But are you talking about tailoring lists for specific opponents, or a nice balanced all-comers list? Because with DE in particular, list tailoring makes a massive difference.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri May 24 2013, 04:20

@bklooste wrote:

The Bale flamer will kiill the arcon , wasnt saying the wracks were better vs the flamer just dont rely too much on the arcon .. T3 is a big liability so dont pump too many points into it

the Archon should live. Being as he has to be the closest to have the baleflamer put wounds on him, and you get LoS! on a 2+ to pass it to another model. Add in that Grots get FNP against it, and if you fail a LoS! you still get a 2++ on it. He has like a 1.837% chance of dying to a baleflamer wound in a unit of grots (thats wounding against an average toughness of 5 and failing both a LoS! roll and his shadowfield)

Quote :
The incubi are almost the same and against the strength 5 weapons like Tau they are better and they get no armour save at all against bolters ( or is it feel no pain ? I normally have a token on the incubi from a wrack unit or Haemi so they get that as well) . but they are cheaper and you can have 9 in the raider with you.. that makes them better. Also the fact the whole unit is fleet often means you face a lot less shots.

True, against S5 Grots are worse than incubi due to how the equation works out (and yes Grots start with FNP) but also it comes down to how much you want to overkill as well. 4 Grots arent going to overkill anything that isnt already weakened. 9 Incubi are going to blow through and unit, and then cause your incubi to get shot to death. Also a raider full of Grots is far cheaper than a raider full of incubi... so cheapness is comparative.

Personally I feel its a toss up to be honest. They both have their pluses and minuses. Personally I feel Grots are a better TAC bodyguard, while incubi are more suited for a heavy MEQ enviroment. But it really comes down to personal preference.

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craigyy
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri May 24 2013, 04:35

Quote :
whereas you could cram 2 Grots + HQ in a Venom

I don't think this is legal? But please correct me if I'm wrong I am stuck at work still Sad

I believe it is a tough decision really as Incubi have their AP2 but are a lot more delicate

Whereas Grots hit harder and are tougher, but have their lower save and are so darn expensive!
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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri May 24 2013, 05:31

That's indeed not legal. A unit of Grotesques must consist out of 3 minimum. Which means they won't fit in a Venom.

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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri May 24 2013, 05:45

I too am chained to my desk. Forgot the min unit size was 3.
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bklooste
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri May 24 2013, 11:12

@doomseer11b wrote:
How does fleet mean they will face a lot less shots??? And I disagree, I bought a squad of incubi when I should have used that money on more grots. The problem I have faced with incubi is, you HAVE to dedicate a HQ to them with PGL. Now I understand you have to do similar for grots but the difference is, the HQ's used for grots give access to other things, they buff up other units IE. wracks as troops, S6 for grots, and they bring more pain tokens to the field for more units.

Incubi are awesome assassin units, they are good at chomping power armor. Almost too good. I find myself out in the open being shot to death. Now when my grots finish a unit off, hopefully not on my turn, they absorb so much shooting and brush it off. It's hard to insta kill them and generally stop your enemy from firing at your ravagers or less tougher squads. So all in all, they're more survivable even against AP2 weapons due to FNP and their high toughness, they are more versatile in they can blow vehicle up a lot easier, and the HQ's required for them buff other units. To me it's hands down grots all day. And to add one thing, I have noticed they play a very good psychological role, they're big and scary with lots of high S attacks, FIRE EVERYTHING!!!!

Australian Masters Championship this year had la DE list with incubi and no PGL .. 25 points is another Incubi .. with the armour save in most cases thats better.

Fleet has more shots because of charge distance when your transport gets wrecked which it will against any good opponent with 300 points + for the unit. It also helps when you have killed your first unit of screening crap in 1 turn ( I normally try to go for 5-6 incubi so they dont kill everything in 1 turn ) , you then cop all their fire while they move away and need to get to the next target ..

I dont think they are bad meat shields but 3.5 Wracks are better and you put less points into the unit so you have another assualt unit... AP2 ranged weapons are normally strength 8 -10 for which the toughness is not that great .
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri May 24 2013, 12:48

Incubi are better for meq environments, which is why mine took a back seat. Sucks but the archon kills just like incubi and grots make sure he gets there.
Incubi are murderously killy but are not as durable.

In math hammer terms 3+ and T5 can be comparable but in game incubi get ghosted easier, especially by tau. Marker + iontide/plas suits.. dead. Against non cover ignoring shots the combo of T5 cover fnp is better than 3+

Wracks lack the durability of grots and the armour/ap2 of incubi. IMO they are not in the same league as either of the two for bodyguard or premier combat element duty.


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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri May 24 2013, 13:06

also consider all the plas running around... Incubi get nothing while atleast Grots get FNP

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Tony Spectacular
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri May 24 2013, 13:19

@bklooste wrote:
@Tony Spectacular wrote:
True, but the Wracks don't confer T5 onto the Archon.

You mean with lookout sir..

I don't. Majority T5 means that you have a T5 Archon with, probably, a 2++. That majority T5 is leagues better than the T4 that you get from the wracks. Negating ID from S8 is massive.
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doomseer11b
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri May 24 2013, 16:02

To add, you're also getting 3 wounds per model with a grot. So in essence, your 5-6 man squad of incubi has less wounds than say a 3 man grot squad. 105 points for 9 T5 wounds, in comparison to 6 T3 for points cost I can't remember. Every time someone breathes you'll be taking an armor save. Something we deal with all the time, I understand but once again I'll take my chances on grots. All a matter of play style I guess. I just feel it gives our army a curve ball that people don't normally assume when playing against eldar. Also, creating more scoring units in an army that is very much so lacking is also very nice (in reference to the wrack convo). Assuming you're taking Urien or a haemy. AND don't forget Urien comes with clone field, so the few CC attacks that do go through can be reduced, AND Urien can take wounds and regenerate them!

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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri May 24 2013, 19:30

I'm liking the arguments expressed here. I may have to Grot-up in the near future.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri May 24 2013, 20:03

@Skyboard surfer wrote:
I'm liking the arguments expressed here. I may have to Grot-up in the near future.

Grots are next on my "To Do" list. Just need to finish off a Talos first.

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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri May 24 2013, 20:10

After my little eye opener I've put the Coven higher up my ToDo list. Wanted to paint those models for ages anyway. Let's be a good Dark Eldar and indulge myself. Wink

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doomseer11b
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeFri May 24 2013, 23:40

I feel the ONLY issue is playing against poison. My army is mostly Wracks, grots and reavers. Not so sure it would be good against dark eldar, or a poisoned up nid army.

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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat May 25 2013, 01:38

Or the dreaded Eldar S6 spam. But, we'll see how intact that remains in the new codex.
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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat May 25 2013, 02:04

Good point doomseer. Tervigon/gant hordes can be a problem with poisoned attacks, even so my last encounter with this style of army (3 tervs) saw my grotstar kill their way through over 80 poisoned gants. The archon is brilliant with grotesques pretty much solving most of the issues they have with his 2++, huskblade, grenades and so on. Cant speak highly enough of this unit.

The ONLY downside IMO is the mandatory raider which can be wrecked before they move. In my environment though it is very rare that I dont have multiple LoS blocking pieces to ensure its survival into enemy territory. For people who play with little to no LoSB terrain I would recommend 1-2 backup raiders to force your opponent to shoot empty rides to prevent the grots delivery.
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat May 25 2013, 15:09

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
also consider all the plas running around... Incubi get nothing while atleast Grots get FNP

Easy to give incubi a counter ( hemi / 3 wracks in a venom) and they will get a 2nd pretty quick.
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Sandy Death
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat May 25 2013, 15:13

There was an old saying when I was in the military: "If 10 pounds of explosive will blow something up, then 20 pounds will blow it up twice as good"

If one unit of 4 Grotesques and a Haem in raider works, then how about two units?
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat May 25 2013, 15:19

@doomseer11b wrote:
To add, you're also getting 3 wounds per model with a grot. So in essence, your 5-6 man squad of incubi has less wounds than say a 3 man grot squad. 105 points for 9 T5 wounds, in comparison to 6 T3 for points cost I can't remember. Every time someone breathes you'll be taking an armor save. Something we deal with all the time, I understand but once again I'll take my chances on grots. All a matter of play style I guess. I just feel it gives our army a curve ball that people don't normally assume when playing against eldar. Also, creating more scoring units in an army that is very much so lacking is also very nice (in reference to the wrack convo). Assuming you're taking Urien or a haemy. AND don't forget Urien comes with clone field, so the few CC attacks that do go through can be reduced, AND Urien can take wounds and regenerate them!

The cases where your raider gets wracked ( it should be vs a good oponent) then lacking fleet is significant eg not taking rapid fire at 12" etc. As a meat shield wracks are more cost effective. In terms of damage against good opponents Incubi are better. Taking backup raiders doesnt always work as they normally carry something that also needs to be delivered and the gun that killed the first 1 is normally in the area.

The ONLY reason i would take grots is if i was expecting lots of crap .

Lastly the elite slots are very valuable .. im even thinking Incubi are not worth it due to the strenght of 3 True Born in a venom sniping at 36".
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat May 25 2013, 16:17

@Sandy Death wrote:
There was an old saying when I was in the military: "If 10 pounds of explosive will blow something up, then 20 pounds will blow it up twice as good"

If one unit of 4 Grotesques and a Haem in raider works, then how about two units?
Beautifully put Twisted Evil
I have to admit, I'm working on converting/painting my second unit of Grots for this very reason. I hear the argument presented about Incubi being better at slicing up quality opponents, but I have found the grotesques to have better versatility against a broader range of opponents. IG blob squads, ork boyz mobs, hell-even vehicles are better handled by the more versatile grotesque unit. I'm not arguing that Incubi are somehow a sub-par unit; I have just found grotesques to be a far more durable, annoying, fun, and effective unit to field. I love the Incubi models like there is no tomorrow and have looked for an excuse to paint the ten that I own but have never justified their points unless I know that I am facing cc-geared Space Marine armies exclusively.

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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat May 25 2013, 17:40

@bklooste wrote:
The cases where your raider gets wracked ( it should be vs a good oponent) then lacking fleet is significant eg not taking rapid fire at 12" etc.

Not a problem if you bring more than one raider. most things should be on foot running alongside raiders, or hidding in cover, anyway seeing as explosions are S4 now. So that means empty raiders are free to use for you grotesques.This also means your opponent has waste time shooting at 3-4 empty raiders if he wants to makes sure your grots don't get to his line.

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bklooste
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSat May 25 2013, 18:50

a lot of things work well in local games. But in national. Or master lists. I don't see any of it. No ,foot, grots ,few wyches etc. I only see very. Mobile lr shooting with a few assault elements. Which means the other builds didnt get national rankings
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 3 I_icon_minitimeSun May 26 2013, 00:21

@bklooste wrote:
a lot of things work well in local games. But in national. Or master lists. I don't see any of it. No ,foot, grots ,few wyches etc. I only see very. Mobile lr shooting with a few assault elements. Which means the other builds didnt get national rankings

And Grots are an acceptable way to get those few assault elements...

Also you know these "national rankings" you want arent standardized, and each event is just a basic extension of the area they are held in meta. Take for example that a guy who took Best Dark Eldar player at a recent Throne of Skulls Tournament who went 5-0 ran a mostly all wych cult army. Personally I dont see how he won, but the results dont lie.

Now if Warhammer ever got some sort of league like the NFL or MLB, then you can start looking at "national rankings" as something, as they will be more standardized... but ofc that will never happen...

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