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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue May 07 2013, 17:37

Quote :
my grots have performed extremely well. the lack of CC ap weapons is more than made up for by the amount of punishment they can take both from shooting and close combat.
and heaven help any light vehicle that gets to close to them
This has been my experience as well. I basically rely on my grotstar with archon for linebreaker and possibly slay the warlord as well. And, as you say, they go a long way to mitigate my lack of AT. They're like wyches that dont evaporate.
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Jehoel
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue May 07 2013, 18:36

Quote :
and heaven help any light vehicle that gets to close to them

Since you always hit a vehicle on its rear armour they will rip any and every vehicle apart that is not a walker or a landraider

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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2013, 17:29

Grots really aren't that bad when you compare them to some of the other big base models like Clawed Fiends and Sslyth that occupy a somewhat similar role of being S/T 5. Point for point the Grot is pretty good thanks to the starting pain token.

But like the other big bases, where it all goes awry is the investment cost. Grots are nice, but they need to be minded by an independent character. Maybe you're ok with putting a haemonculus in that unit, but I'm not happy about being forced to.

What really gets me about Grots, however, is their niche. They are stronger and tougher than regular infantry and MEQs. Neat. But, any monsterous creature is going to make a mockery of that S/T 5. Gray Knights can also potentially murder them in CC, and for that kind of investment i want returns. Not that Gray Knights can't kill anything they want in CC...
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doomseer11b
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2013, 17:53

I see what you're saying false son but there is so much you're not calculating in. At 5 points a model you get S6, with Urien you're guaranteed all 3 tokens right off the bat. So that's S7 on the charge. Now these are possibly one of the more versatile units at this point. They can beat up regular infantry and IC's, they are a threat to all tanks except land raiders as they hit back armor in CC, so that is better odds then haywire grenades, and if your opponent knows what grots are and can possibly do if played correctly, he should be dumping lots of fire into them. At 3 wounds per model and T5 AND FNP they shake off bolter fire like crazy. It is a decent point sink but it usually increases the longevity of my ravagers and allows my wyches to get to where they're going. It allows almost all my units to get to where I'm going. I personably would not put them up to a monstrous creature. I would shoot it to death. We have enough shooting! I use the grots sweep across and soak fire, killing a whole bunch of infantry with them. TBH they usually make it to the end of the game, Tau have been the only fight so far that has killed them, it took they're entire army pretty much to kill them though. You can tar pit with them, tank hunt, IC hunt, or use as a diversionary tactic. By far my favorite unit in our army, next to reavers.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2013, 18:04

@False Son wrote:
Gray Knights can also potentially murder them in CC

There is a way round that. Run a shadowfield archon with them, refuse any challenges with him. And allocate all the force weapon wounds to him, if you get the charge even a unit of 10 grey knigth will on average only inflict 1.66 wounds (as they can't use hammer hand as they used their warp charge to activate their force weapons).

I did this in a game a few weeks ago (link). It will catch most players off guard.

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2013, 18:55

Grots rock.

Some issues that people seem to have with them:
Force weapons.

At best, a force weapon can kill off a single wounded grot. Dont spread wounds around and you dont have to worry about it. Your opponent, however will have to worry about the 43 str 7 attacks this unit can dish out!

Urien
Baron
10 Grots/ liquifier/ champ w/ scisorhands

the unit STARTS the game with fearless, feel no pain, furious charge, stealth, hit and run, basic strength of 6 and a toughness of 5.
If there is no instant death weapon, Urien is custom made for challenges... if there is a single opponent, refuse and let him choose which of the 3 models that can gank him solo wont be joining the rest of the grots in playing "smash em till they stop squealing".
It's a fun game.
And the grots play it so very well.


Tonight, I play a league game at 2k points. Double force org.
I am taking the above unit, 6 talos and 4 units of wracks (2x liquifiers each).

I am pretty certain my opponent (demons) will be more worried about the grot unit and 6 talos than a few wracks covering objectives....



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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2013, 19:03

Quote :

At best, a force weapon can kill off a single wounded grot. Dont spread wounds around and you dont have to worry about it. Your opponent, however will have to worry about the 43 str 7 attacks this unit can dish out!

not sure how you figure that?

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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2013, 19:22

As I'm assembling now my first three Grots I'd like to know what kind of unit sizes are you guys running? I'll intend to pair them with my Archon to make my TAC list a dual cc threat. Any other experience against TAU than Mushkilla with a grotesque unit? Thats what worries me a bit.

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2013, 19:33

@DominicJ wrote:

not sure how you figure that?
Yeah, I need to recheck the rules. I was informed that force weapons take effect at the end of the assault phase. That would simply kill off any surviving but wounded grots. If it takes effect at the begining.. each wound is an insta death. Gonna look that up as I am at "work" rght now..

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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2013, 20:04

i've never used a force weapon, but I thought it was when a wound was caused, and every wound becomes ID.
so three wounding hits = three dead grots.

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False Son
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2013, 20:36

@DominicJ wrote:
i've never used a force weapon, but I thought it was when a wound was caused, and every wound becomes ID.
so three wounding hits = three dead grots.

Really need to look into the wording on timing. It could bypass FnP as well.
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Crazy_Ivan
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2013, 21:23

@Vasara wrote:
As I'm assembling now my first three Grots I'd like to know what kind of unit sizes are you guys running? I'll intend to pair them with my Archon to make my TAC list a dual cc threat. Any other experience against TAU than Mushkilla with a grotesque unit? Thats what worries me a bit.

I run 4 with an abberation with flesh gauntlet and one with a liquifier, they are normally with my archon and sometimes a haeme as well.
Despite having a bad armour save they are very durable.
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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2013, 21:43

i dont believe it ignores fnp

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rotforge
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2013, 22:11

well, BRB FAQ says:

Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.

So that's that.
On another note, I have a (noob) question. How is it possible to have both an Archon and a Haemonculus together with a squad? I mean, both are ICs and I thought you can only have one in a squad...

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Crazy_Ivan
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2013, 22:33

Yes you can have two IC's in a squad Smile
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Archon Farath Mure
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2013, 22:53

In fact, you can have as many ICs as you want in a squad, though I consider more than one or two inadvisable.

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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed May 22 2013, 23:09

Ok, thx guys! Yea, I've reread the IC part of the BRB and it's all clear now Smile

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu May 23 2013, 05:12

An activated FW inflicts ID with all wounds and ignores FNP. Biggest threats are gk's and mephiston that I can think of.. Which is what the archon is for.

Vasara- I run 4, aberration- VB + HB archon in raider, only rarely add LG anymore. Its really the warm bodies I want while the aberration and archon kill stuff. Other upgrades are good but usually just not cost effective or necessary, even the LG is extraneous. I nearly always boost them into enemy lines asap and usually put the archon in btb with 2 grots for LO,S shenanigans.

I'll be running multiple games against tau with my grots this weekend and I'll keep track of their exploits for what its worth.
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bklooste
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu May 23 2013, 12:36

Too expensive . You can get 7 wracks for 2 at that price ... which is more wounds (and no instant death) . more attacks ( 21 vs 8 on the charge)
. Wracks can also get liquifiers and get a pain token , can be scoring with a haemi .
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Tony Spectacular
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu May 23 2013, 13:22

True, but the Wracks don't confer T5 onto the Archon.

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bklooste
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu May 23 2013, 14:51

@Tony Spectacular wrote:
True, but the Wracks don't confer T5 onto the Archon.

You mean with lookout sir.. T4 and 2.5* is better , especially when you can face templates like Str6 baleflamer..and then you have snipers. best not get to attached to Archons , things like Demon Princes, Bloodthirster , Abaddon , Swamp lord etc will just tear him and his squad apart. That why i run a haemi , though im considering Vect just for the initiative dice,. Incubi are probably better than both with thir 3+ armour save and the fact they can hurt anything pretty bad so you dont really need the Arcon.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu May 23 2013, 15:10

@bklooste wrote:
best not get to attached to Archons , things like Demon Princes, Bloodthirster , Abaddon , Swamp lord etc will just tear him and his squad apart.

On the contrary an archon with a husk blade loves fighting all the things you listed above. None of them have eternal warrior.

@bklooste wrote:
incubi are probably better than both with thir 3+ armour save and the fact they can hurt anything pretty bad so you dont really need the Arcon.

They need the archon because they don't come with assault grenades, and therefore strike at I1 when charging into cover. The archon is the only way to give them assault grenades thanks to the PGL.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu May 23 2013, 15:17

@Mushkilla wrote:
@bklooste wrote:
best not get to attached to Archons , things like Demon Princes, Bloodthirster , Abaddon , Swamp lord etc will just tear him and his squad apart.

On the contrary an archon with a husk blade loves fighting all the things you listed above. None of them have eternal warrior.

Abaddon does.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu May 23 2013, 15:17

grots are better against the baleflamer... T5 means they are only being wounded on 3s not 2s... also less models means less wounds... yah Grots are far surperior to wracks, but that is why they are more expensive Very Happy

Also what the heck??? Archons love MCs and fighty lords. Most fighty lords are a ton of points, and your generic HQ most likely has a higher WS, Init, and Attack profile than them. Unless they have EW (ala Failbaddon... but who takes him anyway...) then Id love to challenge the crap out of those you said. Soultrap bait...

Also Grots are a far surperior bodyguard than incubi for the simple fact of the curve caused by wounds. So both grots and incubi have the same defenses against bolters (by far the most common AI gun). It takes on average 7 bolters to deal 1 wound to either. Both have the same math involved (Incubi are X*Y*.667*.333 and grots are X*Y*.333*.667, X being the number of shots and Y being their BS percentage). The thing is grots .333 (the to roll wound) affects a larger portion of dice than incubi's .333 (their armor save) So the curve to get to the average wound per grot is by far sharper curve up than incubi. The opponent has a greater chance of rolling under the average, meaning overall per round of shooting you should take less wounds overall...

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bklooste
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PostSubject: Re: Are grotesques really that bad?   Are grotesques really that bad? - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu May 23 2013, 15:24

Most of those things also have instant death attacks ( some are Eternal Warrior) and often up to 10 attacks at higher intitiative ..and remember they are not alone either .

re the Incubi yes but they work well enough going 2nd as long as you dont send them against one of those beasts..

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
grots are better against the baleflamer... T5 means they are only being wounded on 3s not 2s... also less models means less wounds... yah Grots are far surperior to wracks, but that is why they are more expensive Very Happy

Also what the heck??? Archons love MCs and fighty lords. Most fighty lords are a ton of points, and your generic HQ most likely has a higher WS, Init, and Attack profile than them. Unless they have EW (ala Failbaddon... but who takes him anyway...) then Id love to challenge the crap out of those you said. Soultrap bait...

Also Grots are a far surperior bodyguard than incubi for the simple fact of the curve caused by wounds. So both grots and incubi have the same defenses against bolters (by far the most common AI gun). It takes on average 7 bolters to deal 1 wound to either. Both have the same math involved (Incubi are X*Y*.667*.333 and grots are X*Y*.333*.667, X being the number of shots and Y being their BS percentage). The thing is grots .333 (the to roll wound) affects a larger portion of dice than incubi's .333 (their armor save) So the curve to get to the average wound per grot is by far sharper curve up than incubi. The opponent has a greater chance of rolling under the average, meaning overall per round of shooting you should take less wounds overall...

The Bale flamer will kiill the arcon , wasnt saying the wracks were better vs the flamer just dont rely too much on the arcon .. T3 is a big liability so dont pump too many points into it

Archons love MC and fighty lords provided they dont have 6+ , initiative 8-9 instant death attacks ,...

The incubi are almost the same and against the strength 5 weapons like Tau they are better and they get no armour save at all against bolters ( or is it feel no pain ? I normally have a token on the incubi from a wrack unit or Haemi so they get that as well) . but they are cheaper and you can have 9 in the raider with you.. that makes them better. Also the fact the whole unit is fleet often means you face a lot less shots.


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