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killfrenzy
Hellion
killfrenzy

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PostSubject: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 16 2011, 20:26

So what's the opinion on the wargear combinations for the Archon?

There's the classic huskblade/soul trap which has great potential but never seems to pay off for me. It also seems to be very much sink or swim...

There's the Blaster/Djinn Blade combo which takes advantage of the archon's high BS and compensates for the lack of 2 CCWs with the DBs extra attacks.

There's the clone field with bloodbrides with nets, which I have a soft spot for.

I'm looking for more ideas of good synergy with wargear and/or attached units. What say you?

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theblackjackal
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theblackjackal

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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 16 2011, 21:04

I've recently taken to running my Archons (yes, some of my lists at 2,000 points have a pair of them, don't judge) with only a blaster, running with Blasterborn on a Venom. Nice and inexpensive, and also frees up more points for Night Shields.

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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 16 2011, 21:07

I would take Blasterboss with unit thet either don't have AT (seriously, BS7?) or have punch in CC.
Grots apply to both, as well as Incubi and few other units.

I'm currently searching my best build, but Drugs, Djin Blade+CCW, Blaster, Soultrap, Grenades Field/Clone+Ghostplate, and maybe WWP are nice. Costly as hell, but this guy should be Chuck Norris, just 28mm high Wink

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Saintspirit
Court of Cruelty
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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 16 2011, 21:09

I'm thinking about trying one with agonizer/pistol/shadowfield, going along with incubi.

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shamroll wrote:
Dang! I was hoping Tyranids followed the Pokemon naming idea. A big Carnifex running around just yelling "Carnifex! Carni-Carnifex!" followed by a squad of termagants all saying "Termagant" to each other.
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theblackjackal
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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 16 2011, 21:17

@Saintspirit wrote:
I'm thinking about trying one with agonizer/pistol/shadowfield, going along with incubi.

You'll also want to include a Phantasm Grenade Launcher, as Incubi don't get assault grenades.

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Saintspirit
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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 16 2011, 21:33

@theblackjackal wrote:
@Saintspirit wrote:
I'm thinking about trying one with agonizer/pistol/shadowfield, going along with incubi.
You'll also want to include a Phantasm Grenade Launcher, as Incubi don't get assault grenades.
Oh right. Forgot to mention that one, but not to model it.

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shamroll wrote:
Dang! I was hoping Tyranids followed the Pokemon naming idea. A big Carnifex running around just yelling "Carnifex! Carni-Carnifex!" followed by a squad of termagants all saying "Termagant" to each other.


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Sorrowshard
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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeThu Jun 16 2011, 22:38

Firstly a disclaimer, I don't think archons are actually cost effective enough to make the cut in a truly 'competitive' list you are better off spending the same or a little more on another unit.

Unlike alot of modern hq's he does nothing for the army , he's just a cut-and-dry combat character, considering thats his modus operandi he's not particularly great at it (sick of flubbing on to-wound rolls) without putting what I feel is an unnecessary level of effort into making him actually dangerous.

A husk blade is stupidly expensive, librarians get a str 4 version for free .... ofc you can bust your balls to get him FC before he hits a meaningful target. I'll be honest with you it's been pretty rare for one of my archons to particularly impress once in a while I get lucky and he actually manages to kill something that gives him the str boost once you have the str6 it's a very different story, I have had him once or twice on 8-9 str 6-10 attacks on the charge....

Frankly the DE CC units are good enough when used correctly to not need him, incubi don't need him, all your doing is making a much juicier target out of one of your vehicles without making it especially better at its job, like I said , get another unit.

I find he is completely unreliable, very win big loose big, he'll either pass every shadow feild save ever and get a respecatble amount of 5's to wound or you will fail to wound your opponent and then die as you fail your invuln from the first return hits (making an archon a one wound character would actually make naff all difference to me)

I kinda think GW sorta dropped the ball with him.

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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 07:11

If I run one it's usually with Shadowfield, Agonizer and PGL. Good in combat, 2++ save and gives grenades to a unit that doesn't have em. I don't use Archons all thta often tho. Usually I just take Haemonculi, and maybe a Succubus if I feel like I need a cheap beatstick character.

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Urien Rakarth
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Urien Rakarth

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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 13:20

I've run mine with the SF, Ag, PGL before and he managed to virtually solo a unit of 5 TH/SS Salamander Termies and Vul'kan He'Stan before nobbling a Land Raider with a Haywire grenade!
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Radium
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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 14:07

I run the Soultrap/Huskblade guy. It's fun. But it's not that great or all too useful against some opponents.

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Hashmal
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Hashmal

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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 15:35

I don't mean to make it seem like I'm picking on you, Sorrowshard. The reason I'm quoting you is that you and I, almost across the board, agree. I quote to highlight my differences of opinion, but yours is extremely similar to mine.

@Sorrowshard wrote:
Firstly a disclaimer, I don't think archons are actually cost effective enough to make the cut in a truly 'competitive' list you are better off spending the same or a little more on another unit.

Unlike alot of modern hq's he does nothing for the army , he's just a cut-and-dry combat character, considering thats his modus operandi he's not particularly great at it (sick of flubbing on to-wound rolls) without putting what I feel is an unnecessary level of effort into making him actually dangerous.

The one part I disagree with you on is the cost effectiveness in a competitive list. As you have to take an HQ, the Archon is a good choice, but only if you keep him cheap, and that means a Blaster. That weapon, to me, is what keeps him in the running. His other weapon options are expensive, ineffective, or expensive AND ineffective.

However, a Blaster Archon clocks in at a decent amount of points - 15 more than a Liquifier-armed Haemonculus. Your other options don't impress me much.

The Succubus isn't going to make it in a larger points competitive list, owing to her frailty and middling damage output.

The Haemonculus works, but you really have to build for him. I don't like the idea of dead weight in my army, and a Haemonculus that does nothing but provide a Pain Token to something is, to me, dead weight - his cost is quite a bit for FnP on a T3 unit. When the army incorporates some of the other things he does, like brings Template weapons to the field or Wracks as Troops, then he's obviously a good choice.

Still, at 15 points more for a BS7 AT weapon, I argue the Archon has a place in competitive lists - but really only with this loadout.

You're right in other respects. He's a combat character and does nothing for his army at all. His sole benefit is that he's pretty cheap as far as combat characters go, but he still suffers their drawbacks. In addition, if anyone played DE through the last codex, you remember how you could get your Archon up to truly horrifying levels of power, just by killing stuff (not ICs/MCs) for relatively cheap. Those are the days I miss - the Archon used to be a real force to be reckoned with. Now he's middle of the road, above average only in that he's pretty cheap, all things considered.

@Sorrowshard wrote:

A husk blade is stupidly expensive, librarians get a str 4 version for free .... ofc you can bust your balls to get him FC before he hits a meaningful target. I'll be honest with you it's been pretty rare for one of my archons to particularly impress once in a while I get lucky and he actually manages to kill something that gives him the str boost once you have the str6 it's a very different story, I have had him once or twice on 8-9 str 6-10 attacks on the charge....

The Huskblade is worthless, sorry to say. It's a fun piece of jewelry, but really nothing more. If he still got to pick his combat drugs and could ensure he got re-roll to wound and +1 S, this would be an amazing weapon. Alas...

@Sorrowshard wrote:

Frankly the DE CC units are good enough when used correctly to not need him, incubi don't need him, all your doing is making a much juicier target out of one of your vehicles without making it especially better at its job, like I said , get another unit.

I find he is completely unreliable, very win big loose big, he'll either pass every shadow feild save ever and get a respecatble amount of 5's to wound or you will fail to wound your opponent and then die as you fail your invuln from the first return hits (making an archon a one wound character would actually make naff all difference to me)

I kinda think GW sorta dropped the ball with him.

Incubi like him only for the PGL, but definitely don't need him for damage output.

Agreed - I think that his ball wasn't so much dropped as deflated.

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Rangrok1k
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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 18:36

I run named Archons mainly. Duke, Vect, and once I ran Malys for the fun of it (It was a Team game, Eldar and Dark Eldar vs Salamanders and Chaos Space Marines to completely screw over the fluff. Malys was with a unit of Banshees with Eldrad... Deployment was fun Very Happy)

I rarely run an unamed Archon, but I prefer to go with the Agonizer + Shadowfield + Phantasm Grenade Launcher + Blast Pistol (I modeled him with it, and I'm making the best of it). I would run unamed Archons if they could get a Hellion Skyboard and/or a Reaver Jetbike (Oh how I miss that from last edition).

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Urien Rakarth
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Urien Rakarth

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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 20:51

You ever get the feeling that with the Archon they had ideas for him and his wargear and things changed through playtesting but they never went back and revisited him to see if he still worked after those changes? Or are we again going to the days of wanting to take special named characters because for the points, some of them do pretty awesome things for your army?
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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 21:02

@Urien Rakarth wrote:
Or are we again going to the days of wanting to take special named characters because for the points, some of them do pretty awesome things for your army?

I was thinking the same thing just earlier today! Because yeah, if/when I'm going to replace my cheap Succi I'll definitely try the Baron or the Duke before running an Archon! Very Happy

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Hashmal
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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeFri Jun 17 2011, 22:15

Again? Are you referring to the old codex or another time in 40k's history? My memory serves me well. In the old book, by and large, the special characters were terrible.

The only two worth talking about were Drazhar and Lelith.

In recent codices, GW has finally gotten the message that HQ options, to justify their price tag, need to do more than simply beat face - whether that be through allowing alternate formations for your army or opening up different ways to play. Space Marines (admittedly handled through Special Characters, which isn't a great move), Blood Angels, Tyranids, and Grey Knights all emphasize this. Imperial Guard kind-of do, to an extent.

Space Wolves don't nearly as much, but in return you are able to build some truly frightening combinations. Still, along with the Dark Eldar, they are the outlying army - the trend is definitely towards HQ units bringing options to the table besides combat prowess.

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Urien Rakarth
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Urien Rakarth

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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 18 2011, 00:33

I was thinking more back to 2nd edition.
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Sorrowshard
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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 18 2011, 22:28

Hmm, this reminds me , no unit upgrade characters like Arjac etc for the DE ? seems odd, both derpcrapitator and Drazzy would instantly become better for it, Arjac is a beast and an upg char ?

There are a few oddities (like the Archon) in the book if you look hard enough, I actualy have a blog article planned on the subject at some point.

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Raneth
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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeSat Jun 18 2011, 23:28

Speaking of oddities: how come a Hekatrix can take a PGL and a Succubus can't? My Incubi are not amused. Razz

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Spanna uv Komor-AAAGH!
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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 19 2011, 05:28

@Raneth wrote:
Speaking of oddities: how come a Hekatrix can take a PGL and a Succubus can't? My Incubi are not amused. Razz
Would you be willing to talk to a Succubus into wearing one? I'd like to see that one play out...

"Milady, your attendants wish for you to aid them in-"
"If they need my aid, then they are not worth my time."
"Your grace please, Phantasm Grenades would-"
"You would task ME with a burden upon my flesh to better the performance of incompetents!? The Hexatrix I command to guide and train the newer Wyches, but the time has long since passed when I need lower myself so."
"But...
Fatality!



Joking aside, I think it fits in the army list. The Succubus is not a Leader/Support character of any kind; she is there to kill things and hopefully look good doing it. The Hexatrix are intended, in fluff and army list, to make the Wyches more effective.

It's the same reason I don't mind that Haemonculus can't take the Shadowfield or Clonefield. They are not meant to be beat-down drag-out combat characters, and their rules reflect this.

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Archon Levitas
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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 19 2011, 07:52

hmmm........ in all the vs. Necron games i play my archon always has a huskblade-soultrap and is in unit of wyches. against necron lord+10-20 warriors this works great, as the archon kills the lord, gains S6 and next turn destroys the remaining warriors, with the wyches just being annoying.

And best of all, he always makes his points back.

Before you all yell at me because necrons are the oldest codex and also suck in combat, the HB-ST archon works just as well against MEQs

Mabey i'm just lucky but the HB-ST archon works for me.

(exept against Lysander, *squish*.)


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wildboar
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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeSun Jun 19 2011, 21:39

Hey there newbie to the Dark City (Forum) here!

Yeah I find the Archon to be a little bit like the 'almost guy'. I do really like them and use them relatively regularly but I feel underwhelmed generally by their performances.

I think it is entirely possible that they had altered the rules for the Archon mid development or so. Or at least dropped some of his options. I find it a little odd that the Lhamaeas in his court change 'all' the Archon's poisoned weapons (CC & shooting) to 2+ yet the only weapon that benefits at all is his Splinter Pistol. If he were allowed a Flesh Gauntlet however.....

Back on topic I usually run mine with Agoniser, Shadow Field and Drugs. He always runs with one of my Wych squads unless I'm feeling fancy and take Brides.

Boar
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Angaurrith
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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 03 2011, 07:33

I have run raids against Space Marines, Tau, Imperial Guard, Necrons, Orks, and Blood Angels, and in every one (Always at 1000 points) I run the same HQ squad.

Archon with blast pistol, agoniser, ghostplate, haywire grenades, shadow field, and combat drugs.
His squad has four Incubi, one is a Klaivex with demiklaives, bloodstone, and onslaught.
Their transport is a Venom with two splinter cannons, chain-snares, and night shields.

The Venom is armed the way it is for obvious reasons: transport and fire support. You fly the little thing over the squad you want to assault and use the chain snares to cause some initial damage. It only works half the time, but for five points I don't complain.

The squad itself is set up the way it is because of the amount of PW attacks I get in an assault. 17. Five from the Klaivex, two from each other incubi, and six from my Archon. The bloodstone can do some nice damage, and the blast pistol is almost guarenteed to kill one unit (particulalry useful against tougher units and HQ squads). With their high initiative, I have yet to be disappointed.

Most games, the Incubi die quickly, but not before earning my Archon FNP. He has yet to die in any game I have played, and always ends by killing several units (one game he killed three squads of Fire Warrios by himself, and in the next game a squad of five Terminators with a Termi-Librarian, and then ten tactical marines).

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GrenAcid
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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 03 2011, 13:26

Onslaught is overpriced...i used it onece and gained only one bonus A...soo I will spend those points on somthing better...like another Incubi.

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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 03 2011, 13:50

Incubi is 22 points ? Drugs are ten, an extra attack is great! And having the archon in the incubi means the unit gets fnp off the blocks when you get a six, very rarely disappointed with the drugs

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PostSubject: Re: Archon builds   Archon builds I_icon_minitimeWed Aug 03 2011, 14:04

I typically like to run Ag, Shadowfield, Blaster, drugs and run him along with a wych unit in a venom or a blasterborn venom. If with wyches, haywire grenades to boot. OH, and PGL for every build.
If I don't run that archon, I run Malys purely because I love the fluff.
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