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 Building an army to go against Heldrakes

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Spitfire
Slave
Spitfire

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PostSubject: Building an army to go against Heldrakes   Building an army to go against Heldrakes I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 10 2013, 01:44

Hello everyone! I'm not posting this in Army List since I don't have a list yet, I hope to soon.

I asked what kind of army was popular at my FLGS, and was told Chaos armies with swarms of Cultists (and Heldrakes, I assume.) Since I don't have many models yet, and I know how frustrating Heldrakes are for DE, so I'd love to hear any thoughts or suggestions on what units/strategies have worked for you against flyers.

As of right now, I have 2 Kabalite Warrior squads and an Archon. And since the thought of Turbo-boosting Reavers make me giggle like a schoolgirl, I want to incorporate them... Somehow.
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foeofnight
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: Building an army to go against Heldrakes   Building an army to go against Heldrakes I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 10 2013, 04:08

Eldar Allies...

Eldrad
Fire Dragons w/exarch
3 Guardian Jet bikes.
Aegis Line with Quad-Gun

I include this with every list I make.
Have Eldrad roll on divination table to get prescience and cast on a couple of your Ravagers.

Between the Quad-Gun and Twin Linked Ravagers I have been able to take on a 2 Helldrake list with little to no trouble.
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Spitfire
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PostSubject: Re: Building an army to go against Heldrakes   Building an army to go against Heldrakes I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 10 2013, 08:17

Sweet Slaanesh no, allies are not for me. Sooner or later I'll want some Eldar Rangers to go with the Aegis line, and then some scoring Jetbikes, and before you know it I'll be playing Eldar with DE as allies.

That being said, the Quad gun can't be destroyed, right?
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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Building an army to go against Heldrakes   Building an army to go against Heldrakes I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 10 2013, 10:22

They are a serious pain.
The only counter we have is our own fliers

Three Ravagers with 9 lances getting a rear shot will bag ONE pen
Three Ravagers with 27 Dizzie shots to the rear will bag 0.75 pens

Three fliers get 2.667, 3.333 or 2 pens, Dark, Void, Dizzie

But they will suffer equaly at the hands of the drakes.
Its wouldnt be so bad if they had a toughness, or our Splinter Cannons were S6 against vehicles


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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Building an army to go against Heldrakes   Building an army to go against Heldrakes I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 10 2013, 11:38

The quad gun can be destroyed... T7, W2, 3+ save

I hit the enemies turn 1 every game and with some luck a single venom does the job. 2 makes it almost a certainty

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Squierboy
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Building an army to go against Heldrakes   Building an army to go against Heldrakes I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 10 2013, 11:55

If you're not willing to bring allies for some anti-air, your best option is to pretty much ignore them as much as possible. Use speed to try and stay of range - not easy given the heldrake's turret gun - and punish the rest of the CSM force with salvoes of splinter & darklight fire and bladevaning reavers (if you're intent on taking them). Cultists will fold to a stiff breeze. Remember that flyers spend a lot of the time off the table in reserves, so use that time to get at your opponents ground forces.

You could try having a DE unit man a quad gun/icarus lascannon (but, see below), or risking taking them on with voidravens (nerfed a bit now because they can no longer deep strike), but I don't rate these options as good.

Mushkilla posted a report vs a 3-heldrake CSM force and won - take a look at the realspace raid threads.

Also, there have been one or two recent discussions about dealing with flyers in the tactica forum, so have a quick search. There's plenty of info there.

As to your query about the quad gun - it can be shot at/assaulted and destroyed. Check the main rulebook for the stats, p105. This is the main reason some people shy away from using them. They're also not that reliable vs Heldrakes anyway.

Heldrakes are a pain to deal with, but it can be done with the right game plan; you don't even need to tailor your list, just bring a bunch of effective units in a balanced force and have at 'em!

Anyway, good luck with your new Dark Eldar army!

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Building an army to go against Heldrakes   Building an army to go against Heldrakes I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 11 2013, 14:03

This Is the battle rep Squierboy is talking about

Personally I find our flyers lackluster at best. I know you said you dont want eldar allies, but eldar have access to some of the best AA platforms out there. The Fire Dragon Agis Line is good, as well as the Nightwing. Also the ability to twin link guns with Divination or Guide and add in their high rate of fire weapons like War Walkers, and you got yourself some decent AA.

As for pure DE, your best bet is our own fliers... If you do take one, the Void Raven is your choice in planes. It does better damage against the Drakes higher AV, and can probably drop atleast 1 drake each game before it gets eaten by another one's vector strike

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Spitfire
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PostSubject: Re: Building an army to go against Heldrakes   Building an army to go against Heldrakes I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 12 2013, 04:34

Thanks a bunch for all the advice, folks. I think I'll invest in a pair of Ravagers for now. Here's to hoping the Voidraven gets a model soon!
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sgb69
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PostSubject: Re: Building an army to go against Heldrakes   Building an army to go against Heldrakes I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 12 2013, 05:44

Most everyone and their grandmother just uses a razorwing jet as a voidraven. The kit even came with implosion missiles.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Building an army to go against Heldrakes   Building an army to go against Heldrakes I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 12 2013, 06:11

@sgb69 wrote:
Most everyone and their grandmother just uses a razorwing jet as a voidraven. The kit even came with implosion missiles.
Um... No it didn't... At least not from the 2 I have... Or according to the instructions

The quad gun is awful against any AV12 flyer anyway and even worse against a hell drake as it has no need to evade since it has a built in 5++ save. Even with 4 hits the chances are slim to do any real damage to it... 1 in 36 to down it per hit and it regens hull points...

Our flyers are lack luster and over priced and even worse, as we want to go first, our flyers are typically on the table before the enemies and thus likely to be hit before we get a shot at them.

Divination plus ravagers may be the best and most cost effective option

Or just get under them so they can not hit you... Between a 45 degree vertical movement on hull weapons (like vendetta) and minimum movement ranges on zoom, it's easy to get out of the danger zone of most flyers

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Spitfire
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PostSubject: Re: Building an army to go against Heldrakes   Building an army to go against Heldrakes I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 12 2013, 06:27

@sgb69 wrote:
Most everyone and their grandmother just uses a razorwing jet as a voidraven.

Yeah, I know, but I hear the Voidraven is finally getting a model sometime soon, I'd rather wait for that...assuming it isn't more expensive.
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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Building an army to go against Heldrakes   Building an army to go against Heldrakes I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 12 2013, 08:32

"Or just get under them so they can not hit you... Between a 45 degree vertical movement on hull weapons (like vendetta) and minimum movement ranges on zoom, it's easy to get out of the danger zone of most flyers"

A torrent flamer makes that virtually impossible.
I'm the first person to talk down other flyers for that very reason.

"
Yeah, I know, but I hear the Voidraven is finally getting a model sometime soon, I'd rather wait for that...assuming it isn't more expensive."
Damn, just bought one!

Mine came with monoscythe, necrotoxin and shatterfield, 4 of each.
I have a few impwerial fuel barrels, I was going to magnetise one as the void mine Smile

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Building an army to go against Heldrakes   Building an army to go against Heldrakes I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 12 2013, 13:42

@Massaen wrote:
The quad gun is awful against any AV12 flyer anyway and even worse against a hell drake as it has no need to evade since it has a built in 5++ save. Even with 4 hits the chances are slim to do any real damage to it... 1 in 36 to down it per hit and it regens hull points...

Atleast with firedragons they get tank hunters, so re-roll that to pen wound... or he could go the dark reaper lascannon combo for a 2 shot lascannon... Its not like ignoring its coversave will matter with the helldrake anyway.

Quote :
Or just get under them so they can not hit you... Between a 45 degree vertical movement on hull weapons (like vendetta) and minimum movement ranges on zoom, it's easy to get out of the danger zone of most flyers

the Helldrake has been FAQed to have a turrent for a head. So that Torrent Flamer can shoot 360... because GW is cool enough to break the rules once the model has been out for awhile...

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Building an army to go against Heldrakes   Building an army to go against Heldrakes I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 12 2013, 13:50

I did say most flyers... The drake is its own special flower... Getting under it is still viable thanks to the zoom rules... If it stops zooming it dies to lances

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Building an army to go against Heldrakes   Building an army to go against Heldrakes I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 12 2013, 14:09

@Massaen wrote:
The drake is its own special flower... Getting under it is still viable thanks to the zoom rules...

It's extremely difficult though. Anywhere in LOS within ~20" of its base is a viable target.

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Black Death
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PostSubject: Re: Building an army to go against Heldrakes   Building an army to go against Heldrakes I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 12 2013, 19:26

This has been one of our biggest problems lately. Have 2 players that both use them. Very troublesome. So far my best take down was using my wraithguard with farseer guide which was last night. It really sucks to have to take such an expensive unit/units just to deal with it. I have not tried an allies list yet but starting to realize that taking my DE with a farseer/wraithguard unit may be my best tactic for this. The other thing that I have done was really just an accident, but I took the fortress of redemption and just had my DA units on top of it, not inside. Apparently if we are reading the rules right, he can't target it as per its rules(fortress) unless there is a unit inside the bottom floors.If we are reading this wrong please tell us where in the BRB. Other then that we just try to ignore it as much as possible and hope for the best.

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Squierboy
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PostSubject: Re: Building an army to go against Heldrakes   Building an army to go against Heldrakes I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 12 2013, 20:23

@Black Death wrote:
The other thing that I have done was really just an accident, but I took the fortress of redemption and just had my DA units on top of it, not inside. Apparently if we are reading the rules right, he can't target it as per its rules(fortress) unless there is a unit inside the bottom floors.If we are reading this wrong please tell us where in the BRB. Other then that we just try to ignore it as much as possible and hope for the best.

Interesting question. P95 says that battlements are treated as a multiple-part building (p92), so it seems that they are treated as a separate building that can be targetted if a unit occupies them - using the AV of the bastion and having slightly modified damage tables (p95). So the battlements can be wrecked leaving the main section of the building undamaged.

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Black Death
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PostSubject: Re: Building an army to go against Heldrakes   Building an army to go against Heldrakes I_icon_minitimeTue Mar 12 2013, 20:53

Ah yes, I see thanks for that. Sometimes the going back and forth, ya know ...go to page so n so then you get there and its see page so n so and so on. I appreciate your time Squireboy.

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