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 Are Scourges Really That Bad?

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PostSubject: Are Scourges Really That Bad?   Are Scourges Really That Bad? I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 02 2013, 21:05

Fellow Archons:

I recently played a friendly narrative game in which I used a unit of Scourges. My ally and myself opted to use them as a suicide unit against a Leman Russ MBT. That worked great. Then the squad jumped onto a landing pad and put the hurt on some Guardsmen before jumping back down and killing Yarrick.

I did the math and this single squad of five birdmen killed a bit over 400 points worth of Guard. That is a ~200% return on investment.

I understand that this is anecdotal evidence and it probably speaks to how desperate the battle but that's a lot of firepower for such a small unit... I even rolled snake eyes for their first turn of shooting. So do Scourges merit such hate outside of a tournament setting? Because they're pretty stylish and I want to love them.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Scourges Really That Bad?   Are Scourges Really That Bad? I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 02 2013, 21:27

In my experience they're not bad, but most people's arguement is why have them when you could things such as Reavers?

I'm not a fan of Reavers and always make sure to include a couple of units of Scourges in my army at a time. I find that it's rare for them not to cause some substantial damage. Every player has his or her own style and preference, though, so what may work for one might not work for another. If you find a way to use them well and you love them then use them! Even if you find another option more effective then you don't have to play to win all the time, so feel free to use whatever combination of whatever you want.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Scourges Really That Bad?   Are Scourges Really That Bad? I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 02 2013, 21:34

The big issue with Scourges isn't that they're bad, quite the contrary - they're damn good. But... for their points, you can get stuff that gets their job done and then some. AI is better covered by Venoms (you get two Venoms for the price of five Scourges!), AT is better covered by Reavers. It's such a shame, because I absolutely love the models and I painstakingly painted mine, but sadly they get to see little use.

Still, if you like them, keep using them! While there is always the optimal way, it's not always the most interesting way to play. In fact, I should really bust my precious winged angels of death out from the case and let them draw a bead on the enemy troops.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Scourges Really That Bad?   Are Scourges Really That Bad? I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 02 2013, 23:57

Dark_Kindred wrote:
Because they're pretty stylish and I want to love them.

Then go out and do it. Like you sad, there not bad, really not bad, but compared to specialised troops, the seem not so good.

So by all means, they work for you(and me) and then play them. There may be the slightly better option, but it does not always has to be the best effect/cost as list building is more than that.

And with scourges as a multi role squad, they can make good use of their wings and help where they are needed.

I like to play 6 with 2 HL. This way the AI is a little bit more serious.

And i they are just so damn good looking models....


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PostSubject: Re: Are Scourges Really That Bad?   Are Scourges Really That Bad? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 03 2013, 04:47

As others have said, they really aren't bad, and there are some good builds for them (anti-infantry in particular). The problem is anything they can do, Trueborn or Reavers can do better (for the points that is), so they don't make the cut if you're really trying to optimize a list.

I personally like them, and will be getting some and painting them up for sure (I paint way more than play these days anyway) and they'll be used in normal games. I just wouldn't really put them in a tourney list.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Scourges Really That Bad?   Are Scourges Really That Bad? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 03 2013, 05:28

I've used them as expendable deep strikers with Heat Lances in 5th, and haven't really tried out Haywire Blasters in 6th.

On a whim I took two units of Scourges with Dark Lances the other day. They ended up being much more resilient than the Ravager I took.

I think that's mostly because the long range guns my opponents always bring aren't well suited to taking out infantry. So a fair bit of anti-vehicle stuff gets pointed in their direction instead of at my Raiders.

Also, the nine splinter shots from one squad really mattered in the late game, when that last freaking dude had to die.

Speaking of Raiders, most turns I'd rather turbo them rather than shoot their Dark Lances. Honestly, if I could take Raiders without a gun and get a 15 to 25 point discount I'd do it.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Scourges Really That Bad?   Are Scourges Really That Bad? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 03 2013, 05:35

I tend to take other things over Scourges for the reasons listed by others here; for the points I always feel that there are other things that I would rather take first. Admittedly though I have been running them with a 5th edition mindset(Haywire Blasters). I am keen to try them with HL's as I would like to find a build that I don't mind taking more often. Really love the models and want an excuse to paint them Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: Are Scourges Really That Bad?   Are Scourges Really That Bad? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 03 2013, 05:47

I love them personally. Ive always wanted to deep strike ten of them with cannons and the baron onto a landing pad just for poops and giggles.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Scourges Really That Bad?   Are Scourges Really That Bad? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 03 2013, 08:51

Creeping Dementia wrote:
The problem is anything they can do, Trueborn or Reavers can do better (for the points that is), so they don't make the cut if you're really trying to optimize a list.

Ich would not compare them to Trueborn, as their biggest strenth is their specialised wargear. HL and HB are great weapons and have their special uses. Thats why i would only compare them to reavers, and they have their speciality too(and you need 6 for 2 special weapons, rather then 5)

Its just that reavers have their jump thing that makes them really good for HL. HB on the other hand is their real speciality. Haywire from far away, hell yeah.

slainte

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PostSubject: Re: Are Scourges Really That Bad?   Are Scourges Really That Bad? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 03 2013, 21:08

Crazy_Irish wrote:
Creeping Dementia wrote:
The problem is anything they can do, Trueborn or Reavers can do better (for the points that is), so they don't make the cut if you're really trying to optimize a list.

Ich would not compare them to Trueborn, as their biggest strenth is their specialised wargear. HL and HB are great weapons and have their special uses. Thats why i would only compare them to reavers, and they have their speciality too(and you need 6 for 2 special weapons, rather then 5)

Its just that reavers have their jump thing that makes them really good for HL. HB on the other hand is their real speciality. Haywire from far away, hell yeah.

slainte

Their specialized gear has much the same end effect as common Trueborn builds. 4 Trueborn with Blasters, 10 Scourges with Haywires, 10 Scourges with Heatlances... they are all going to cause somewhere around 2 Hull points worth of damage per turn (when they shoot). As far as looking at end results, the builds are going to get the same thing done even though the tools to do it are slightly different. The real question is whether 4 Haywire blaster shots per turn is really worth 200+ points.
The same thing is true with Splinter Cannon builds and anti-infantry, but IMO its a better fit because the carbines aren't wasted shooting at tanks.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Scourges Really That Bad?   Are Scourges Really That Bad? I_icon_minitimeMon Mar 04 2013, 01:50

I think the selling point for me is the durability in comparison to Trueborn or Ravagers.

As for Reavers... I dunno. It's really hard to say no to Reavers this edition.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Scourges Really That Bad?   Are Scourges Really That Bad? I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 08 2013, 08:37

I honestly love my unit of 10 Scourges
I have them setup as follows:

Solarite w/ Power Weapon
2 w/ haywire Blaster
2 w/ heat Lances


I love what they bring to the table, while not being GREAT at one thing, the do a darn good job of filling in what squad of mine needs help doing. I also like dropping them into the enemies backfield to tear up units like Havocs, Long Fangs, etc. I find that coupled with a warrior squad turns out to be a nifty way of pretty much removing things I need "not there" anymore.

But I do realize other units can do the same thing, but come on the models are so awesome looking.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Scourges Really That Bad?   Are Scourges Really That Bad? I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 08 2013, 13:49

Yeah, I love my Scourges too. I only run 5 of them, but they have 2 Haywire Blasters and have never failed me. I usually shoot a tank with a Dark Lance, if that doesn't destroy it (by exploding or wrecking) then I put the Scourges into it and I usually say "Buh-Bye" tank right then.

Plus the Shardcarbines are extremely nice against infantry, and let's not forget that Haywire Blasters are S4 AP4 against troops!

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PostSubject: Re: Are Scourges Really That Bad?   Are Scourges Really That Bad? I_icon_minitimeFri Mar 08 2013, 13:54

I do believe they will work quite well. However, they do not work with the models I have already collected.

As opposed to the scourges vs ravager argument: The scourges will outlast the ravager that mutch longer, and they will build up pain tokens. After the first one they should be a riot. You can also grab the haywire gun, efficient vs landraiders if you have enough of them. They can also do mellee with the hammer of wrath.

In my mind I like the bikes better though. They are just so damn cool. Perhaps if I had the models to not do ravager/blasterboorn for my anti tank I could have some funn with scourges, but as it stands venoms are taking their place.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Scourges Really That Bad?   Are Scourges Really That Bad? I_icon_minitimeWed Apr 17 2013, 23:30

they also bring a 4+/6++ to the table which lets face it, is darn good for DE.

Ill occasionally tool up a solarite and use them as assault troops, the lack of CC ability is usually more than made up for by the amount of fire power they can pour into a unit before charging

and if done correctly by tag teaming them, then they get to take the overwatch shooting , hopefully letting your better CC unit arrived unscathed.

i usually use 6 with 2 HL and try to tag team them with my incubi and ive had better than average success.
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PostSubject: Re: Are Scourges Really That Bad?   Are Scourges Really That Bad? I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 18 2013, 04:22

I recently shelled out for a unit of Warp Spiders. I haven't gotten to use them on the table yet, but I'm expecting them to perform as better scourges... pretty much across the board.

Better at at taking down infantry, better at taking down vehicles, faster, more durable, same or lower point cost. Shorter range guns, but meh.


@ Darthken:
I'll have to give assaulty scourges a shot. That sounds like a fun and classy use of the unit, and I enjoy assaulting with weird things.

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PostSubject: Re: Are Scourges Really That Bad?   Are Scourges Really That Bad? I_icon_minitimeThu Apr 18 2013, 07:18

Their not bad, they just inst competitive.

I bring them myself when playing fun games and against friends, but never bring them to turnements as they will eb waste of points in most of the games. But they are good against some oponenets. I do like them tho. But I liked them alot better last edition when you could stunlock with them.

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