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 Dark Eldar Cheese?

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Aschen
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PostSubject: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 25 2013, 06:08

Soo I was reading through some lists and such of other armies...and there is a lot of cheese out there. Chimera spam, helldrakes up the ass....

I was wondering if Dark Eldar have any cheese to throw out?

So woo me. Show me your best Dark Eldar Cheese!
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 25 2013, 06:12

The chimera/helldrake spam is not so much cheese... just good, hard lists utilising redundancy.

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Deyfluff
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 25 2013, 06:27

3 units of blaster born in venoms and 6 units of warriors in venoms
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Aschen
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 25 2013, 07:08

I have to say I think unit redundancy is a good amount of cheese..thats just how I think though. The helldrake thing...perhaps not so much cheese..just because the choice is so good, that two is just deadly
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 25 2013, 08:43

@Aschen wrote:
I have to say I think unit redundancy is a good amount of cheese..thats just how I think though.

Most Dark Eldar lists have three ravagers and four or more raiders/venoms, with loads of redundancy. So to answer you original questions, yes all dark eldar lists are cheesy. Wink

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 25 2013, 09:43

Really depends on what you consider cheese to be.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 25 2013, 10:15

Eleven Venoms against nurgle bikers etc. DE don't get cheese units that work against every list there is.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 25 2013, 15:10

There is a lot of debate about Eldrad in a 20 man warrior squad manning a quad gun buffing up a large beast pack that contains both Vect and the Baron supported by large units of Wyches with Haywire on foot being total cheese.

It won templecon so it's pretty easy to search for it and bring it up, basically the cheese part really comes from Vect being in the unit so the unit conga lines to account for his slower movement but gains fearless and preferred enemy for him being in it, and the conga line part allows the unit to stay in range of Eldrad casting range for hopefully invisibility or some nice divination buffs.

I would call this cheesey as it uses 3 named characters to make one death star

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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 25 2013, 15:37

Quote :
DE don't get cheese units that work against every list there is.
I dont know, the 5 wych, haywire, 2x SC venom seems pretty multipurpose.

Tarpit, AT, Anti Inf, Fast, mobile.
All it misses is some sort of save negater.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 25 2013, 15:40

@Seshiru wrote:
There is a lot of debate about Eldrad in a 20 man warrior squad manning a quad gun buffing up a large beast pack that contains both Vect and the Baron supported by large units of Wyches with Haywire on foot being total cheese.

It won templecon so it's pretty easy to search for it and bring it up, basically the cheese part really comes from Vect being in the unit so the unit conga lines to account for his slower movement but gains fearless and preferred enemy for him being in it, and the conga line part allows the unit to stay in range of Eldrad casting range for hopefully invisibility or some nice divination buffs.

I would call this cheesey as it uses 3 named characters to make one death star

This, or maybe a Harlie-star are the only 'cheese' list I can think of ATM.

I wouldn't call Venom spam a cheese list, more of a rock/paper/scissor kinda list. Solid, but not abusive to the level of cheese.

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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 25 2013, 16:17

Oh absolutly, the Venoms are good multipurpose units, rather than broken, like Purgation Squads (16 S8 Rending AP4 and 6 S5 AP5 for 300pts) who I have watched mow down their pts cost per turn.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 25 2013, 16:32

@DominicJ wrote:
Oh absolutly, the Venoms are good multipurpose units, rather than broken, like Purgation Squads (16 S8 Rending AP4 and 6 S5 AP5 for 300pts) who I have watched mow down their pts cost per turn.

I assume that's a full 10-man squad, including psybolt ammo? The Psybolts don't affect psycannons so they are S7, not S8. Also, all of those weapons have 24" range, and the Psycannons lose half their shots if they move. A couple of venoms should be able to run rings around them at 30"+ range and there's nothing they could do about it.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 25 2013, 17:03

Venoms are good but certainly not cheese. Baron, Vect, Eldrad beast pack is gimmick list. Not very cheesy either. Both of these list are very rock paper scissors. But if we go by OP:s defenition then Venom lists are cheese.

And btw. St Celestine is if not cheese at least broken.

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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 25 2013, 17:16

Harliestar if you intrepert the rules so that an Archon joining the unit gains the rerolls (they're pretty powerful even without that as well, if you join Eldrad in the unit, but that's hardly DE cheese, then). That's about the only one I can think. Venomspam is good but hardly cheese, as they're still paper planes, and their efficience drops when fighting against hordes of low- to medium toughness units (and the Venoms themselves do nothing to vehicles).

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agosyb
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 16 2013, 15:00

Dark eldar are just a weird army. Sometimes you come up against a list that just can't do anything to you. Example my friends close combat focused space wolves army. You can just kind of float backward and shoot them to death. 5 wyches with haywire will kill a land raider. I routinely shoot my friends keeper of secrets to death with a warrior squad...and his great unclean one. You can attack someone's strategy just by virtue of being DE. But I'd agree there's not a while lot of cheese in the book, its blessed with Phil Kellys internal balance compass. I don't like hating on the other writers, but Kelly hands down writes the best books for 40k
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 16 2013, 15:15

[quote="agosyb"]Dark eldar are just a weird army. Sometimes you come up against a list that just can't do anything to you. Example my friends close combat focused space wolves army. You can just kind of float backward and shoot them to death. 5 wyches with haywire will kill a land raider. I routinely shoot my friends keeper of secrets to death with a warrior squad...and his great unclean one. You can attack someone's strategy just by virtue of being DE. But I'd agree there's not a while lot of cheese in the book, its blessed with Phil Kellys internal balance compass. I don't like hating on the other writers, but Kelly hands down writes the best books for 40k[/quote]

Bolded the last bit for agreement. I play 3 armies on a regular/semi-regular basis, a Ward-dex (my BA, probably one of his less filthy concoctions), Tomb Kings (Cruddace, who has the ability to polarise most of his books), and recent convert to Dark Eldar. Of the three, the DE book is the one that I'm enjoying the most because its got the most variety of playable units. Nothing that immediately screams "Use me", nothing that begs to be left out (with the possible exception of mandrakes). 3 different army styles built into the book (Kabal, Wych Cult, Coven), with plenty of options for mixing and matching.

I wouldn't say there was much outright cheese other than maybe the shadowfield (people tend to hate on 2+ invulnerable saves in general), and Beast/Baron/Harliestar associated shenanigans in that general area, which is more a specific abusive build than general cheese.

Course, in my only decent size game to date I've had the entire army (skimmers specifically) be accused of cheese both by the grey knight player I was facing and the watching Necron player, so what do I know?
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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 16 2013, 16:59

@Panic_Puppet wrote:
....Course, in my only decent size game to date I've had the entire army (skimmers specifically) be accused of cheese both by the grey knight player I was facing and the watching Necron player, so what do I know?

Just spit my coffee onto my laptop at that, talk about a pot/kettle argument!

It brings up a good point though- what is cheese? Is it redundancy and smart list building, which our lists need to be in order to compete against all comers, or is that considered spam? Is it seriously game-balance shifting codwardexes that get broken further by devious minded uni-dimensional players? Or is it all good cheddar?

I consider "cheese" the spirit in which you build and manner in which you play your army; spinning skimmers for extra movement, taking obvious power units solely for their internet potential, and generally arguing to do things specifically because quote "the rules don't say I can't, so I can".

So by our original poster's definition, 4 or 5 warrior squads in venoms are "cheese" but I look at as providing redundancy and enough troops to compete with marines; just 2 tac squads are 4 troop choices in combat squads and 5/6 games require objectives. Is that cheese?

The fastest race in the galaxy has fliers that can't deepstrike, can't out maneuver flying mon-keigh tanks and can't out shoot interstellar undead, That's cheese!

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 16 2013, 17:31

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
It brings up a good point though- what is cheese?
Cheese is when the other player's net army beats your net army.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 16 2013, 21:59

@Thor665 wrote:
@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
It brings up a good point though- what is cheese?
Cheese is when the other player's net army beats your net army.

Nice one :-)

Cheese for me is, when something stinks.
It sinks when someone takes 5 venoms with warriors just for the soul purpose of getting the best bang for the buck, or when people start a new army just because they wanna play the"best" army. That's cheesy to me. But then again I don't mind cheese, as long as I can have my lemon curt XD

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 16 2013, 22:06

@Thor665 wrote:
@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
It brings up a good point though- what is cheese?
Cheese is when the other player's net army beats your net army.

between you and panicpuppet I need a new coffee proof laptop. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeSat Mar 16 2013, 22:19

He just didn't have anything to deal with my army at range, and apparently fast skimmers that can pump out as many shots as a venom does are OP, despite me only using two and one starting in reserve. Apparently being too fast to catch is unfair when your opponent is using an entire 24" range army, and starts with terminators and a full interceptor squad in reserve...

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 17 2013, 09:04

Sounds like he didn't have a good game. That's a problem.

Lists, attitudes, and tactics both yours and his can change in order to make that situation better.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Cheese?   Dark Eldar Cheese? I_icon_minitimeSun Mar 17 2013, 10:26

I like Eldrad, 2 Archons with SF and Dark Reapers.

Usually kills a unit per turn and that 2++ invulnerable has soaked up well over 100 shots before.
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