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Scorpion
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PostSubject: 2000 points Allcomers list. 1.2.   2000 points Allcomers list. 1.2. I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 20:17

Hey all,

Based on experiences, feedback and theories developed by THIS list

I have now changed it (again) and have need of your feedback. This list is simplier to play, fast and have more synergy than the other. Now I dont ask to compare the lists, I just need your thoughts on this one. Strenghts & weeknesses.

1 Archon - Venom Blade; Huskblade; Combat Drugs; Soul-trap; Shadow Field (Joins Harlies)

1 Farseer - Runes of W, Fortune; Doom (Joins Harlies)

1 Baron (Joins beasts)

4 Beastmasters, 5 khymeraes, 6 razorwing flocks

7 Harlequins, Master with power spear, Shadowseer, 5 kisses. (from the eldar codex)

4 x 5 Warriors, venom, extra cannon (no blasters)

9 Reavers, 3 Blaster, Champion + Venom blade

2 Ravagers, DL

3 Guardian Jetbikes

3 War Walker -Missile Launcher x 2


So basically, Grotesques and Succubus out and Baron + Beasts in.

The change from Scatter lasers to missile launchers is because the absense of guide. I feel that the missiles will cause more damage on what they are shooting at than the lasers. (the little time they usually spend on the board - they are getting blown to pieces no matter if I outflank or not with them).

The change is also based on the fact that I dont know if I want to use the War Walkers any more... So I need to give another chance with another loadout.

Otherwise I have around 210 points that I can eventualy spend on something else.... (any suggestions? Flyers maybe? Still waiting to see if "death from the skies" makes our flyers more usefull.





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Rathstar
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PostSubject: Re: 2000 points Allcomers list. 1.2.   2000 points Allcomers list. 1.2. I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 20 2013, 14:38

Hi,

Interesting list. Part of the reason I think the war walkers are dying so quick is that they are one of only 3 long range threats to vehicles. I would try to squeeze in a 3rd ravager, which I'd afford by reducing the reavers to 6 models and changing the war walker weapons for cheaper ones, either the popular scatter lasers (it's easier to keep them back in cover) or cheap shuriken cannons.

I've seen harliquins work ok, but they seem a bit slow compared to the rest of the agressive part of the list (ie. beastmasters and reavers). My main concern with your list is does it have enough threats all at the same time to force hard targeting decisions on the enemy. To my mind turn 1 target is the long range ravagers and war walkers, turn 2 is the beastmasters or reavers because if the enemy hasn't moved forwards the harliquins are unlikely to make combat until turn 3. All the units you've taken are good and the wargear taken is efficient I'm just unsure that the list gels enough.

The harliquins can be fragile, but I take it you're tanking with the archon and fortuning with the farseer. However the combined unit is so expensive I think the game will be won or lost on how this unit performs. I suggest being very aggressive with it; deploy it front and centre of your deployment zone, and run right at the enemy. Watch out for tarpitters (as you don't have Hit & Run), but apart from that they have to get in combat asap.

I'd say overall the list is good as is (my only big recommendation would be to drop the missile launchers for shuriken cannons saving 90 pts towards a 3rd ravager). So play some more games, and let us know how they go.

How have your games been going ? Has your games thrown up any particular weakness ?

Rathstar


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Scorpion
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PostSubject: Re: 2000 points Allcomers list. 1.2.   2000 points Allcomers list. 1.2. I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 21 2013, 11:50

Thx for that great reply.

Quote :
and changing the war walker weapons for cheaper ones, either the popular scatter lasers (it's easier to keep them back in cover) or cheap shuriken cannons

The other configurations have failed me each and every time. Now with the Baron in the army, I hope to get more 1st turns so the War walkers can start on the board adding to the firepower from turn one. (in cover if possible).

Quote :
I've seen harliquins work ok, but they seem a bit slow compared to the rest of the agressive part of the list (ie. beastmasters and reavers). My main concern with your list is does it have enough threats all at the same time to force hard targeting decisions on the enemy. To my mind turn 1 target is the long range ravagers and war walkers, turn 2 is the beastmasters or reavers because if the enemy hasn't moved forwards the harliquins are unlikely to make combat until turn 3. All the units you've taken are good and the wargear taken is efficient I'm just unsure that the list gels enough.

Thats actually a very good observation. thx. In the other list that wasn´t an issue since the raider with the Grotesques "zoomed" across the board. Now I will think to be more agressive (as you mantioned).

Quote :
Watch out for tarpitters (as you don't have Hit & Run), but apart from that they have to get in combat asap.

Why don´t I have Hit & run?? What have I missed?




Quote :
How have your games been going ? Has your games thrown up any particular weakness ?

Right now, I am playing with 2 Heamonculi instead of the Succubus set-up (joining tthe Grotesques) because even if the Succubus actually looks very good on paper (I 8, 4++, Haywire), she has been dying very quickly in close combat. Now the 2 heamonculi arent getting a longer life on the board but the units 3 LG are very intimidating. To be honest we are having a problem clarifing the "kill only what tyou can reach " rule. 3 templates only covering 5 models (the same 5 models) can now only kill those 5 models ??


Otherwise my games so far have been great. The Harliequin unit is fantastic! A terror on the board as long no flamers can reach them. I usually run tthe Venoms empty for greater target saturation. And in those games were I got the 1st turn, the army have worked great.

On the other hand, the succubus have been a disappointment every time. The Grotesque unit is always getting charged ((which is not suprising) and always needs support from other units to get out of trouble.... Now with 3 LGs in the unit my opponents need to think twice before they chatge in. Now the unit has FC and Fearless so they dont run from a fight either.

I will continue to play with the other unit (grotesques and 2 heamon) until I have all the models to my beast unit. So until then its theory. But I think and hope that the new aproach with 2 units working allmost the same way (harlies & beasts) have great potential.

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psycheer
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PostSubject: Re: 2000 points Allcomers list. 1.2.   2000 points Allcomers list. 1.2. I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 21 2013, 14:26

Ahh a Dual-Star list.

I may end up netlisting this and tweaking to my playstyle. Wink

@Scorpion wrote:

I have now changed it (again) and have need of your feedback. This list is simplier to play, fast and have more synergy than the other. Now I dont ask to compare the lists, I just need your thoughts on this one. Strenghts & weeknesses.

1 Archon - Venom Blade; Huskblade; Combat Drugs; Soul-trap; Shadow Field (Joins Harlies)

I'd cut the drugs to shave some points, maybe the VB too.

1 Farseer - Runes of W, Fortune; Doom (Joins Harlies)

1 Baron (Joins beasts)

I very much enjoy the beast star, i run one in my list too. Though i worry about the little amount of Khymera in this grouping, thier 4+ invuln has saved me more than not. (I'd suggest more khymerae.)

4 Beastmasters, 5 khymeraes, 6 razorwing flocks

Baron does indeed give this unit Hit and Run, the ruling is in the BRB special rules section.

7 Harlequins, Master with power spear, Shadowseer, 5 kisses. (from the eldar codex)

This looks like one of SR's harliestars, i've not run one specifically but it looks right. /shrug

4 x 5 Warriors, venom, extra cannon (no blasters)

Why no blasters? (Will go check previous iteration of this list after posting)

9 Reavers, 3 Blaster, Champion + Venom blade

ahh the good ole Mushkillas, the only suggestion i'd have is adding more and cutting them into 2 groups of 6, but balancing the points is an issue.

2 Ravagers, DL

i'm a fan of ravagers over War Walkers, but you're different from me. We each have our own playstyles.


3 Guardian Jetbikes

3 War Walker -Missile Launcher x 2


So basically, Grotesques and Succubus out and Baron + Beasts in.

The change from Scatter lasers to missile launchers is because the absense of guide. I feel that the missiles will cause more damage on what they are shooting at than the lasers. (the little time they usually spend on the board - they are getting blown to pieces no matter if I outflank or not with them).

When this happens to me i believe that they are THAT much of a threat to my opponent that they feel that they should shoot everything at them. Also consider what isnt being shot at the turn they come on, does that justify the points you're spending on them? or are they so weak that units are just coughing on them and they're dying?

The change is also based on the fact that I dont know if I want to use the War Walkers any more... So I need to give another chance with another loadout.

Overall i like the list, of course i'd make my own changes to fit me, but the structure's there. I'd like to see how this list fares.

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Scorpion
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PostSubject: Re: 2000 points Allcomers list. 1.2.   2000 points Allcomers list. 1.2. I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 21 2013, 20:12

Thx for the reply psycheer.

Quote :
I may end up netlisting this and tweaking to my playstyle

Be my guest ! it would be great to see how others use the basic idea of the list...

Quote :
This looks like one of SR's harliestars, i've not run one specifically but it looks right. /shrug


Well, it is one of SR's death stars.. spot on.

I am thinking of a third ravanger as well but I need to give the War Walkers a new chance with this loadout... I like the idea of 6 x 3" plates st4, ap4, pinning all over the enemy lines.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: 2000 points Allcomers list. 1.2.   2000 points Allcomers list. 1.2. I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 21 2013, 20:46

my name has been dropped enough in this thread... I think I am obligated to respond.

Beasts + Harlies??? insteresting indeed. trying to pressure two points at once, or run them in tandem??? I think it would be interesting to see how the two units work together.

As for the list... The thing that sticks out are the reavers. Now Im not against reavers at all (infact... I love them, maybe even more than Mush does... sadly my Reaver Archon sits on my shelf... staring at me with those lonely eyes... just wants his time in the limelight again) But I digress... what is their purpose??? Could another Ravager and maybe something else from Codex: Eldar not suite you better (say... a warp hunter... a falcon... some hornets... or even... THE NIGHTWING!!!! (god I love those). You can easily get both of them with dropping the reavers and the weapons on the war walkers to another configuration

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Rathstar
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PostSubject: Re: 2000 points Allcomers list. 1.2.   2000 points Allcomers list. 1.2. I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 22 2013, 13:43

Ignore my comment about tarpitting. I forgot the harlies had Hit & Run.

Rathstar

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The following quote is from around 6th edition, how have things changed Smile

@sweetbacon wrote:
You're spending 225 points on Wyches???

Wyches?!!

Why?  

Did someone threaten your family?  

Are you under duress right now?  

Blink if you are and I'll summon the authorities.
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Scorpion
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PostSubject: Re: 2000 points Allcomers list. 1.2.   2000 points Allcomers list. 1.2. I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 22 2013, 20:40

Hi SR. Thx for the reply.

Quote :
The thing that sticks out are the reavers..... what is their purpose???

well, two reasons: 1. I allways have one of those units with me. Never leave home with out them and they have never disappointed me. 2. I was thinking that I could use them as a mobile cover unit when the Harlies or the beasts are out in the open (I know it shouldn't happen but it does). The bikes are fitting perfect for that role. They will ofcourse keep their normal harrassment activities as well.

Quote :
Could another Ravager and maybe something else from Codex: Eldar not suite you better (say... a warp hunter... a falcon... some hornets... or even... THE NIGHTWING!!!!

I love it too... even dream about it.... but we play with "what you see is what you get" when it comes to FW models (as they seem to be a bit overpowered - sometimes) and I don't have the model or any other of the FW models for that sake.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: 2000 points Allcomers list. 1.2.   2000 points Allcomers list. 1.2. I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 25 2013, 14:37

@Scorpion wrote:

I love it too... even dream about it.... but we play with "what you see is what you get" when it comes to FW models (as they seem to be a bit overpowered - sometimes) and I don't have the model or any other of the FW models for that sake.


There are several nice conversions out there to turn the Razorwing into the Nightwing. Infact all you really do is add some recesses and put in two surri cannons (as you already have two "bright lances" on the model)

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