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 Dark Lance per 100 Points

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orestes85
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PostSubject: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 17:24

Fellow Archons,

The other day I was browsing the army list section and came across someone giving the suggestion that, "You need 1 dark lance for every 100 points." After playing yesterday, and finding myself out of dark lances (Ravagers destroyed) and no way to deal with Terminators, I am starting to think that I should be taking this advice. I tried to find the thread again but could not.

So I have a two part question:
1. What do you guys think about this advice?
2. What troop choices do you use to cram in these Dark Lances? In a 1500pt game I have 3 Ravagers and 4 Raiders equally 13 so not quite there. And I want to drop a Ravager for a Razorwing (meaning less DL). What other options are people using. I rarely see Scourges with Dark Lances, but other then them I think its just TrueBorn and Warriors that can carry them at 25pts (Seems expensive).

What are your thoughts?
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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 17:44

It's fine for general advice though as with everything your meta/play group greatly changes what weapons work best for you. Anyway 3x Ravager is pretty common so there's 9. Other then that you've got Raiders mostly. a three man Trueborn squad sitting in the backfield with a pair of Dark Lances can work. Of course if you take the advice less literally Blasters (mini Dark Lances) can find their way into alot of units, from Trueborn to basic warriors.
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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 17:52

Dizzies are far better against terminators than dark lances.

One per 100 is just too many, maybe, one per 200? But It all depends on what else you have.

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orestes85
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 18:25

Thanks for the feedback. Currently I don't have any blasters, so maybe adding, the popular, True Born with Blasters is the route to go.

Dizzies I like but from my experience the Dark Lances become more versatile. Its not just terminators that give me problems once Ravagers go down.

I still really want to find another alternative to Ravagers. Last game those were my opponents main target, and once those were down I had an awkward time dealing with units on his side. (I misused my wyches that game too which didn't help).
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pantofful
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 18:31

A couple common ways:

- 4man trueborn w/blaster (already mentioned)
- 5man warrior squads w/blaster
- Reavers get 1 blaster or lance/3, so 9 reavers can have 3
- Scourges (less taken but simmilar for this comparison) get 2 per 5.

If you throw in a 9 man reaver squad, or a blasterborn squad, you're right up to about that mark that your looking at... the trueborn will be ~180pts, and the reavers would be ~250pts.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 18:31

Our best AT choices are:

1) Ravagers
2) Haywire Wyches
3) Trueborn with Blasters
4) Reavers
5) Beastmasters

Plenty to chose alternative from.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 18:57

@DominicJ wrote:
Dizzies are far better against terminators than dark lances.

One per 100 is just too many, maybe, one per 200? But It all depends on what else you have.

It may have been me saying the 1 per 100. Personally, in competitive play its more like 1 per 80. Even then it's sometimes not enough.

Dizzies are great for termies but are bound to a single ideal battlefield role. Lance shots are versatile - we have splinter for dedicated AI anyway.

1 per 200 gives you a terrible ability to deal with armour... I believe the 1-100 is still a good place to be. The trick is to spread the lace shots across the army so no simple method exists for stopping your AT. Blasters and lances are a must in DE lists who want to be competitive.

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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 19:12

Quote :
and the reavers would be ~250pts.
Which is only 1 per 125pts.

Your meta may vary, but one per 100 means most of your army does little but provide lance shots.
Which are nice, but unless you live in a Heavy Mechal meta, they arent ideal.

It remains my view that tanks are best hit by Ravagers, and Wyches, high save units with dizzies or volume fire.

I thought 8 melta guns was a lot of tank busting...

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pantofful
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 19:22

don't want to sidetrack too much but you may want to re-read my post, but 9 reavers at around 250 has (3) lance equivalent shots... so 1 per 83pts.
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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 23:26

I think the 1 lance shot per 100 points was pioneered by saltandpepper on dakkadakka back when the fifth edition codex came out, though the rule may have been quoted on the boards somewhere too. With the new edition it's more of a guideline than an actual rule since the different metas vary wildly. the change to the vehicle damage chart plus how glancing hits are resolved has effected the rule aswell. For tournaments it could be a good idea but as a general rule just play a few games and gradually add more lances till you feel like you have enough.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 00:31

@DominicJ wrote:

Your meta may vary, but one per 100 means most of your army does little but provide lance shots.
Which are nice, but unless you live in a Heavy Mechal meta, they arent ideal.
I thought 8 melta guns was a lot of tank busting...

Not true at all. Lance weapons are average at best at AT duties and with the changes to the damage rules, suppression is no longer I viable strategy. Consider this... 1500 points means I need 15 AT shots by the above suggestion. 3 ravagers makes 9 of these and costs just over 300 points. I need another 6 AT shots now and have close to 1200 points left. Through natural list building these AT shots will go in no worries.

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 06:56

Massaen is spot on here.
I dont know how big peoples meta's are here, but if you play comeptitive you are going to face everything from hoards to mass mech.

Now if you dont have darklight weapons you are frak.
My 1750pts list consists of 10 Darklances, 13 Blasters, 5 HWG, Beast group and Baron. All who are capable of takign out AT. Now even that is to litle. I have started changing some venoms for Raiders got get even more DL.

When I play competitive, and I face a list that isnt heavy mech I start dancing, I know its going to be a cakewalk. (I have to admit my only two losses so far in competitive play in 6th have been against non mech lists, but that is more to my mistake than a difficult oponent). Termies are no problem, enough poisen shots and they will die, or when mech stuff are down, then aim your darklight at them... or beasts...

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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 09:07

See, I have more than 5 HWG *squads*....

5 hwg wyches are better than a lance at AT duty.

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 09:13

Well there are hughe issues with them at competitive play. They where way better before (no overwatch and longer charge range, abuse would give them 27" charge in turn 1 if I dont remember wrong). They where fantastic, now they are good. Not better than the DL tho because they are to situational.

Bringing more than 1 group wyches leaves you with less AI, but if you go venomspam that problem will be kinda solved, if you go Ravagers I think you might have some problems facing hord lists.

I have yet to play Cult list in turnements during 6th ed. (did in 5th, with success). I dont say it isnt possible to do so, its just that I havnt seen the Cult list in 6th that can deal with allcommers. I think a allcommers wych list need to have alot of reavers to supply them tbf.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 09:31

@Darklight wrote:
Well there are hughe issues with them at competitive play. They where way better before (no overwatch and longer charge range, abuse would give them 27" charge in turn 1 if I dont remember wrong). They where fantastic, now they are good. Not better than the DL tho because they are to situational.

This is balanced by the fact that Haywire is infinitely better in 6e than it was before due to Hull Points. Even a 5-woman Wych squad can expect to take out most vehicles on the charge. In 5e that was extremely unlikely.

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 09:35

That is true, but then again you would stunlock it anyway. so it wouldnt do no harm to you.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 09:36

Lances are effective turn 1 though

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 09:38

@Darklight wrote:
That is true, but then again you would stunlock it anyway. so it wouldnt do no harm to you.

Only if you were lucky, as you'd often need 4+ or even 6+ to hit, plus you couldn't throw a grenade on the way in.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 09:46

@Massaen wrote:
Lances are effective turn 1 though

I learn't that one the hard way. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 16:21

its not how many lances you bring per point value, but more how many darklight platforms you have. The more platforms you have, the more you can spread your shots over multiple vehicles. As for what the perfect number is, there is none. It all depends on your meta

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 16:26

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
its not how many lances you bring per point value, but more how many darklight platforms you have. The more platforms you have, the more you can spread your shots over multiple vehicles. As for what the perfect number is, there is none. It all depends on your meta

Exactly. I usually play against lists with no more than 1 or 2 vehicles. A 'standard' net list would be of very little use. And my 'standard' list would not be much use for people who play against a lot of mech.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 20 2013, 18:27

I keep my overall army cheap. Almost all units are bare boned. Warriors have leaders but no special weapons, wyches only have leaders and venom blades and grenades, raiders and ravagers don't have any extra protection, 10 reavers are leader and venom blade only for diversion and support. Making the whole more fragile and less hard hitting but more bodies.

AT wise at 1500 points it is 2 ravagers and 5 raiders at 11 dark lances. OK that's not 1:100. Still, there are 29 wyches and bloodbrides carried around bearing 29 haywires. Still didn't play but I hope this will be enough AT...

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 20 2013, 20:02

The 1 per 100 'lances' refers to the type more than the weapon... It's about AT output. No blasters in your list??

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 21 2013, 09:55

@Chaeril wrote:
I keep my overall army cheap. Almost all units are bare boned. Warriors have leaders but no special weapons, wyches only have leaders and venom blades and grenades, raiders and ravagers don't have any extra protection, 10 reavers are leader and venom blade only for diversion and support. Making the whole more fragile and less hard hitting but more bodies.

AT wise at 1500 points it is 2 ravagers and 5 raiders at 11 dark lances. OK that's not 1:100. Still, there are 29 wyches and bloodbrides carried around bearing 29 haywires. Still didn't play but I hope this will be enough AT...

You could make your army even cheaper by ditching the 10th Reaver (9 is enough) and Bloodbrides (Wyches do the same but cheaper).

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Lance per 100 Points   Dark Lance per 100 Points I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 21 2013, 10:28

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Chaeril wrote:
I keep my overall army cheap. Almost all units are bare boned. Warriors have leaders but no special weapons, wyches only have leaders and venom blades and grenades, raiders and ravagers don't have any extra protection, 10 reavers are leader and venom blade only for diversion and support. Making the whole more fragile and less hard hitting but more bodies.

AT wise at 1500 points it is 2 ravagers and 5 raiders at 11 dark lances. OK that's not 1:100. Still, there are 29 wyches and bloodbrides carried around bearing 29 haywires. Still didn't play but I hope this will be enough AT...

You could make your army even cheaper by ditching the 10th Reaver (9 is enough) and Bloodbrides (Wyches do the same but cheaper).

I could. But the reaver squads are 2x5 on both edges of deployment, and the bloodbrides is a 'fluff value' elite squad led by my succubus and a heamonculus.

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