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Eldur
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PostSubject: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 09:21

Recently here, in the Dark Eldar Tactics forum, we've been discussing about whether you can benefit from the Pain token bonus by just equipping your model with the Animus Vitae (as it can be read RAW-or Rules As Written-), or if you must use it instead of another weapon, thus not being able to benefit from a Venom Blade or other special weapon.

And then, on February we've got new FAQs from GW. I've downloaded both English and Spanish(I'm from Spain) versions, and I've been suprised because there is something on the Spanish version that misses on the English one. Here you have it, in the original form and translated by myself (you can google-translate it if you want to)

SPANISH Dark Eldar FAQ Feb'13
P. Cuando una miniatura tiene múltiples armas de combate distintas, ¿obtiene únicamente los efectos de el arma que ha elegido usar en cada ronda de combate, o gana los efectos de todas las armas especiales con las que cuente?
R. Únicamente obtendrá los efectos del arma que haya elegido utilizar. Por ejemplo, un Hemónculo tiene un Marchitador y un Animus vitae. Si decide utilizar el Marchitador, no podrá intentar obtener un marcador de dolor por el Animus vitae.


Trans.
Q. When a model has multiple combat weapons of a different kind, ¿does it obtain the effects from the weapon it has chosen to use in each combat round, or does it get the effects from every special weapons it has?
A. It will only obtain the effects from the weapon it has chosen to use. For example, an Haemonculus with a Huskblade and an Animus Vitae. If he chooses to use the Huskblade, it wont be able to obtain a Pain Token by the Animus Vitae.



Knowing this, would you still choose to use the Animus Vitae as the RAW Codex or accept the DE Spanish FAQ.
I just don't know why GW writes different things between the different languages (or doesn't write some in the case of the Eng. version) ...

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 09:25

Given that the Spanish FAQ appears to contradict what GW has said in other FAQs (GK Nemesis Greatsword, CSM Defiler Power Scourge) and that it does not appear in the English version leads me to beleive that someone in GW Spain might have got carried away. Personally I don't use the item anyway but in view of the other FAQs I would have no objection if someone were to use it against me as it seems reasonable.

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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 15:42

I remember reading that one in the English one before. Must have been removed.

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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 15:49

I've e-mailed GW at the FAQ address. Never know, they might clear it up for us!

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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 15:59

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I've e-mailed GW at the FAQ address. Never know, they might clear it up for us!

Hehe, be careful I did that and a week later all our flyers lost deepstrike! That being said I have emailed them about reaver random allocation several times to no avail!

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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 21:15

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
I've e-mailed GW at the FAQ address. Never know, they might clear it up for us!

Hehe, be careful I did that and a week later all our flyers lost deepstrike! That being said I have emailed them about reaver random allocation several times to no avail!

SO IT WAS YOU!!!! Mad
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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 19:45

@Mushkilla wrote:

Hehe, be careful I did that and a week later all our flyers lost deepstrike!

Nooooooooooooooooooo! Now I'll have to go back and edit my Heavy Support tactica... Crying or Very sad

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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 20:01

@Plastikente wrote:
Nooooooooooooooooooo! Now I'll have to go back and edit my Heavy Support tactica... Crying or Very sad

How could your tactica have such misleading information! I'm shocked. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 20 2013, 06:09

Well, I ran the ANimus in a HAemie last night in a game. Was attached to a 6 Wych squad with Succubus and Hekatrix.

Rolled the Pain token on the Drug chart, so the Unit started the game with 3 Pain tokens right off the start.

Wound up charging a unit of Thunderwolf cavalry with Canis Wolfborn.

Succubus scores 5 wounds with her Agonizer, wiping Canis and 2 other Thunderwolves (who had taken some wounds from shooting). Hekatrix and Wychs kill 2 more. Leaving the Haemie to kill the last one (he had a thunder hammer so never even swung). Made the Leadership test.

Wound up with 3 more pain tokens... 1 for Canis, 1 for the Squad, one for the Vitae.

If the Unit hadn't started with 3 the combat would not have gone so well, but we still would have won. and that single combat would have given 3 Pain token.

I think it's worth 5 points, especially if you are sticking a Haemie in a Melee Squad without drugs. But it can lead to overkill and having excess.
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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 20 2013, 08:17

Well... as per the english rulebook, the spanish version is right :
  1. Animus vitae is a close combat weapon (cf our codex).
  2. Rulebook p51 says that when you do have more than 1 close combat weapon, you have to choose which one to attack and you can't mix and match the abilities of several different weapons.
  3. So technically, if you want to gain the pain token from the animus, you have to strike with it and not with your venom blade / huskblade / agonizer / whatever.


I know that their is some cases where GW frak it's own rules up (like the nemesis giant sword for the GK dreadknight) but those are particular cases. And you can't draw conclusions on a general rule using a particular FaQ from other codi.
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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 20 2013, 09:02

@RabbitMaster wrote:
Well... as per the english rulebook, the spanish version is right :
  1. Animus vitae is a close combat weapon (cf our codex).
  2. Rulebook p51 says that when you do have more than 1 close combat weapon, you have to choose which one to attack and you can't mix and match the abilities of several different weapons.
  3. So technically, if you want to gain the pain token from the animus, you have to strike with it and not with your venom blade / huskblade / agonizer / whatever.


I know that their is some cases where GW frak it's own rules up (like the nemesis giant sword for the GK dreadknight) but those are particular cases. And you can't draw conclusions on a general rule using a particular FaQ from other codi.

As pointed out earlier, the requirement of the Animus Vitae is that you are the bearer of the item. It is not required that you attack with it. So you attack with whatever weapon you are equipped with and as long as you are bearing the Animus then that meets the requirements of the item and enables you to take the Ld test and potentially gain the pain token.

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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 20 2013, 13:27

Yeah, but this is nevertheless an ability from a weapon. And the rulebook force you to use the weapon from which you want to gain an ability.

I hope one day GW will clarify the situation, and with a bit of luck, will make it as you say. But for now, we can't combine abilities from different weapons.

P.S.: I don't know if it really has some weight were you play, so I just say this for general information about the subject, but this is also the point of view of the ETC (European Team Championship) rules council.

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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 20 2013, 13:31

@RabbitMaster wrote:
Yeah, but this is nevertheless an ability from a weapon. And the rulebook force you to use the weapon from which you want to gain an ability.

Codex > Rulebook. Codex says you get the benefits without having to attack with it.

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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 20 2013, 14:29

Quote :
Codex says you get the benefits without having to attack with it.
The codex doesn't say that, nowhere.

And this is the real problem : it says nothing about the need to use the weapon or not. With a phrase like "when attacking with this weapon" or "even witout attacking with this weapon", it would be all clear but sadly it's not the case here.

In fact, it's the same problem with the djin blade. Nothing in the description of the djin blade says explicitly that you have to use the blade to get the +2 attacks. But the truth is that you have to use it in order to gain benefit of it's ability (see FaQ), because you can't benefits from the ability of a weapon you don't use.

It's the same thing with the animus vitae.
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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 20 2013, 14:52

@RabbitMaster wrote:
Quote :
Codex says you get the benefits without having to attack with it.
The codex doesn't say that, nowhere.

I beg to differ.

Quote :
If the bearer kills one or more enemy models in a round of combat (including vehicles)...

bear·er
/ˈbe(ə)rər/
Noun

A person or thing that carries or holds something: "a flag-bearer".
A carrier of equipment on an expedition.


Is a Haemonculus carrying or holding the Animus Vitae? Yes. Nothing in the description of the item saying that you have to attack with it.

Now I actually doubt that this was the intent and, as I've said already, I don't use this item myself. But the fact is that RAW you do no need to be attacking with the Animus Vitae in order to gain the benefits.

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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 20 2013, 15:17

Quote :
Nothing in the description of the item saying that you have to attack with it.
And nothing says that you don't have to. I know it's seems kinda silly but the fact is that the rule don't say whether or not you have to use the weapon.

And well... by default, you have to use a weapon in order to benefit from it's ability (cf Rulebook).

It's really the same thing with the djin blade. And it has been clarified in the FaQ that you need to use it to gain the +2 attacks (although the wording also says that the bearer, without further condition, gains this bonus). I think the only reason the djin blade has been FaQed and not the animus is because no one use the animus, so no one complains about it Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 20 2013, 15:35

@RabbitMaster wrote:
Quote :
Nothing in the description of the item saying that you have to attack with it.
And nothing says that you don't have to. I know it's seems kinda silly but the fact is that the rule don't say whether or not you have to use the weapon.

The rule doesn't have to say that you don't need to attack with it as it already gives you the condition required to gain the benefits, ie that you are the bearer of the item.

Look, if a Nemesis Dreadknight can gain rerolls to hit, wound and penetrate whilst attacking with 2 powerfists simply by virtue of 'bearing' a Nemesis Greatsword then I have no issue whatsoever with a device that sucks souls working without actually having to be plunged into a victims innards.

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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 20 2013, 16:16

Quote :
The rule doesn't have to say that you don't need to attack with it as it already gives you the condition required to gain the benefits, ie that you are the bearer of the item.
On the contrary, it has to. Because having to attack with a weapon in order to gain benefit from it's ability is a general rule enacted by the rulebook. So if the animus vitae don't say anything special against this, you have to attack with it.

And it's exactly the case : the animus vitae don't say whether or not you have to attack with it. So :
  1. The rulebook say that you have to attack with a weapon to gain benefit of it's ability.
  2. The animus vitae rule is not in contradiction with this rule, so we're not in the situation where the codex supercede the rulebook on this particular point.
  3. You have to attack with the animus to gain benefit of it's ability.


In the end, there is 2 conditions required to gain the benefits of the animus :
- being the bearer (because the codex rule says so).
- attacking with the animus vitae (because the rulebook says so and is not in contradiction with the codex rule).


Now why does GW contradicts it's own rules in the particular case of the Nemesis Dreadknight... well I don't know and honestly I think nobody has the answer. One thing is sure : this FaQ is not consistent with the rules as they are written in the rulebook (because the greatsword is a special weapon and the doomfist too). But it's a FaQ, so whatever the reasons are, it supercedes the rulebook in this particular case (and not in other cases).


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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 20 2013, 16:37

@RabbitMaster wrote:
In the end, there is 2 conditions required to gain the benefits of the animus :
- being the bearer (because the codex rule says so).
- attacking with the animus vitae (because the rulebook says so and is not in contradiction with the codex rule).

Again, I disagree. If the rulebook tells us we need to attack with a weapon and the codex tells us we do not then that is a contradiction and the codex takes precedence. And the codex does tell us, very specifically, that the benefits of the item are granted to its bearer, with no requirement to attack with it.

Also, note the dffference in wording between this item and the Flesh Gauntlet. The Flesh Gauntlet says "a model that takes an unsaved wound from a Flesh Gauntlet suffers instant death". If this wording also existed in the Animus Vitae then there would be no issue. But it doesn't.

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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 20 2013, 17:03

Quote :
And the codex does tell us, very specifically, that the benefits of the item are granted to its bearer, with no requirement to attack with it.
The underlined part is not written in the rule.

Nothing about the need to attack with or without the weapon is said in this rule :
- The rule don't say explicitly that there is no requirement to attack with it.
- The rule don't say explicitly that there is a requirement to attack with it.
It just says that the animus is a weapon, and that if the bearer kill something, it might gain a pain token. Nothing else.

Not saying that you need to attack with it is not the same as saying that you don't need to attack with it. Or to be more specific (and more readable) :
Quote :
The rule don't says that you need to attack with the animus

The rule says you don't need to attack with the animus

So there is no contradiction between the rulebook and the animus rule, the two apply.


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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 20 2013, 17:09

Granted to the bearer: means you only have to pay the points for it to benefit from it.

100% with Adhemar on this.
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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 20 2013, 20:03

Can't believe I'm siding against my countryman, but I have to agree with Rabbit.

"Bearer" was a poor choice of words on GW's part given it's ambiguity. The description of the item needs to be taken as a whole, not that one sentence out of context: the fact they specifically state it's "a special close combat weapon" in the preceding sentence suggests that it needs to be actively used to gain the benefits, as per the rulebook.
If it was merely some arcane item that simply needed to be owned to gain the benefit, there would/should be rules stating that directly.

As it stands, the rules don't state categorically, one way or the other, whether it is required to be actively used or not, and can certainly be interpretted as just needing to own the item, but I'd say it's obvious that that's not how it's supposed to played.

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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 21 2013, 02:27

@RabbitMaster wrote:

So there is no contradiction between the rulebook and the animus rule, the two apply.

I've chopped the extra bits down, because this is the core of this rule issue; the wording of this wargear item is the very definition of a contradiction.

Many, many examples (and very likely the RAI for the Animus Vitae) show that in order to gain the benefits of attacking with a weapon, you must specifically state you are attacking with it. However, this item does not. Word for word, from the codex:

Codex: Dark Eldar p. 60 wrote:

Animus Vitae*: This detestable creation resembles a tightly-packed sphere of sentient barbed wire that can be made to explode outwards, capturing its prey and then contracting quickly to cut apart its victims. The psychic by-product is highly invigoration to those with the strength of will to consume it. The Animus Vitae is a special close combat weapon. If the bearer kills one or more enemy models in a round of combat (including vehicles), he may take a Leadership test at the end of the round. If he passes the test then he immediately gains a pain token.

From this rule, there are two statements made:
  1. The Animus Vitae is a special close combat weapon.
  2. The bearer of the Animus Vitae gets to take a Leadership test and gain a pain token if they kill a model in combat.

The codex does not state you must declare you are attacking with it. Those words are not there. If you say they are intended to be there, then we start down a slippery slope of what "intended" means, etc.

The only things that are stated is that; you must be the bearer of the Animus Vitae, and so you must have paid your 5 points to include it in your army list entry, and if you want to get all "WYSIWYG" then you also have to model it appropriately too. Then you can go about getting into combat however works best for you and kill something. If you do, at the end of combat (now called the Fight sub-phase) you get to take your Leadership test, and if passed then you get to collect your extra pain token.

Does the wording suck? No.
Is it explicitly clear how the item must be used? Yes. You have to "bear" it to gain its benefit.

This is a simple case of Codex>BRB. It happens time and time again. It's why Space Wolves in terminator armour can't Deep Strike. All other models in terminator armour can, but in the Space Wolves Codex it says they cannot, not even explicitly I'll add. It should also be noted that GW had to provide an FAQ to clarify that rule question. And it should likely be the case here too. Until they do (in all languages of publication, or for me personally, at least in English) then I will use this item according to its codex entry. I'll kill someone in combat with my Haemonculus, and because he is the bearer of the Animus Vitae, I'll take a Leadership test, and if passed, collect my pain token.

If an opponent wants to have an argument with me over this topic will I be upset? No. I lost the proper use of a 5 point piece of wargear, and probably had a really good game in lieu of getting bent out of shape over some contradictory wording.
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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 21 2013, 09:53

Quote :
From this rule, there are two statements made:

The Animus Vitae is a special close combat weapon.
The bearer of the Animus Vitae gets to take a Leadership test and gain a pain token if they kill a model in combat.

The codex does not state you must declare you are attacking with it. Those words are not there. If you say they are intended to be there, then we start down a slippery slope of what "intended" means, etc.
We are basically saying the same thing over and over Very Happy I, too, said that the animus vitae rule only say 2 things :
- The Animus Vitae is a close combat weapon.
- The bearer of the Animus Vitae gets to take a Leadership test and gain a pain token if they kill a model in combat.
It never says that you have to attack with it, nor that you don't have to attack with it. In the end, the codex only give 1 condition : the bearer of this item has to kill something in combat.

Ok what do we do know about the 2 thing said by the codex :
- The Animus Vitae is a close combat weapon. => No conditions whatsoever.
- The bearer of the Animus Vitae gets to take a Leadership test and gain a pain token if they kill a model in combat. => A single condition : the bearer has to kill something in combat (because DE codex).

At this point, we are all agreeing that the only thing the codex ask, is that the bearer of the animus kills something in combat. No more, no less. In particular, does the codex says that you have, or don't have, to attack with the animus ? No.

-----------------------------------------------------

However, the rules of W40K are not only enacted by the different codexes. So we have to refer to the rulebook in order to see if there is no other rules that could affect the animus.

Regarding the fact that the bearer of the animus has to kill something in combat, well the rulebook have nothing to says more. However, it has some rules regarding the fact that the animus is a close combat weapon. In particular, the rulebook says that you can't mix abilities from different weapons and that you have to attack with a weapon in order to benefit from it's abilities.

Ok, now, what do we do know about the 2 thing said by the codex :
- The Animus Vitae is a close combat weapon. => If the haemy has multiple CCW, it has to choose to attack with the animus in order to benefit from it's ability (because rulebook p51).
- The bearer of the Animus Vitae gets to take a Leadership test and gain a pain token if they kill a model in combat. => A single condition : the bearer has to kill something in combat (because DE codex).

So in fact, we don't have 1, but 2 conditions :
- The haemy has to kill something in combat (because DE codex)
- If the haemy has multiple CCW, he has to attack with the animus in order to benefit from it's ability (because rulebook).

Does those 2 conditions contradict each other ? No.


If you think that they are in contradiction each other, tell me where. But remember, the DE codex never says that you have (or don't have) to attack with the animus in order to gain benefit of it's ability.








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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

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Join date : 2012-04-26
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Animus vitae + other special weapon Empty
PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 21 2013, 10:18

To be honest, we're just going round in circles now and I really don't care enough either way about an item I don't use to continue doing that all day. So I'm just going to agree to disagree and move on.

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Animus vitae + other special weapon YhBv3Wk
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Animus vitae + other special weapon Empty
PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Animus vitae + other special weapon I_icon_minitime

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