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 Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom

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PostSubject: Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom   Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 17 2013, 21:19

5 Wyches, Haywire Grenades, Venom with additional Splinter Cannon.

This unit is so in vogue in 6th while you see less of the Warrior units with Blasters in Venoms. So, why is this? Do hull points and haywires really make them that great? Is it the fact that you can throw a grenade and hit so much more reliably? Surely they're less survivable than Warriors and more likely to be thrown away to stop a tank?

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom   Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 17 2013, 22:07

I think it comes down to the duality of the unit. Venoms are fantastic at AI and the warrior squad adds yet more AI fire power while only giving a single blaster for AT. Wyches are being taken in venoms because they are fantastic AT which complements the AI firepower of the venom very well.
That's the thinking behind it anyways I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom   Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 17 2013, 22:18

I see this (in theory at least) as a 125 point unit that can do a lot compared to a small warrior squad in a similar roll:

- 5 haywire shots
- Assault whatever spills out of the vehicle you just popped or keep using your haywire grenades if you had bad rolls against a 3 or 4 hp vehicle
- If something does spill out of that transport, it was obviously meant to get up field, so slow it down a turn in assault. If they are wimpy enough, you might actually do some extra harm to these guys as you're doing as many as 15 attacks on the charge.
- You really only "threw away" 60 points to guarantee that the <insert 200+ point vehicle> dies and you have a unit on their side of the board. You're venom keeps on cruising doing its AI stuff now.

Warriors don't bring that same versatility and seem to be better left to their typical role of AI gun-boating.


Last edited by Ehawther on Sun Feb 17 2013, 22:20; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom   Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 17 2013, 22:19

Yeah, I'd agree with Bibitybopitybacon. The Venom is more of a delivery system as far as the Wyches are concerned, making them very mobile AT with a bit extra AI thrown in. I much prefer to use Warriors in my Venoms and keep Wyched to my Raiders, though. I find having larger numbers of Wyches much more effective.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom   Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 17 2013, 22:35

I still like running a 5 man squad with blaster in venoms. Why? Cause deep striking crisis suits, wraiths, and other models that my local meta uses that just hate the insta kill. Plus, if my enemy gets first turn and takes out my ravagers and/or dark lance raiders then at least I have a back up plan for a landraider rushing across the field. Ya you could argue "well thats what the haywire wyches are for," but if i'm facing an apponent with lots of devestaors or long fangs I actaullly prefer to use the wyches to tie them up. Almost kinda like the point of 5th ed wyches. They might not win in the long run, but either the devestors ignore my AT or AI vehicles and go after wyche vehicles, or I tie them up and give my vehicles time to do their job.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom   Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 00:43

Don't wish to try and take over this thread but it fits something i wanted to ask as a DE newbie, can it be possible to use just venoms to transport your troops as small squads or do you need bigger units in raiders to?

The reason i ask is i have planned an army themed around all really sleek & fast moving units and as much as i like the raiders they just don't fit the look of the army i have in mind.

Oh and if it helps with my question i plan to have plenty of Reaver Jetbikes(my favourite models) and a Razorwing plus some coven stuff as i just can't resist the chance for conversions.


Thanks in advance for any help that can be offered.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom   Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 00:47

Do you mean to ask if you can use small squads in Raiders? If so then yes you can, anywhere from 0-10. Whether it's more feasible? That's an entiiirrrely different matter.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom   Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 01:02

No, what i meant to ask is it possible and at all competative to not have Raiders in an army and instead have purely 5 man units of Kabalite Warriors/Wyches/Wracks in venoms to be my scoring units, even if i have to use other stuff to do the actual killing?

I like the Raiders i just like to have strong themes in my armies to and what i have planned Raiders don't really fit.


Thanks

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom   Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 03:06

Yes DeathGlam it is possible, its usually called venomspam.

I like both Sky Serpent, 2+ units of each please, depending on pts. Lots of options!

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom   Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 04:46

I run two of each currently, works pretty well and gives some flexibility with reserves depending on the opponent. Warriors are slightly better at ranged anti-infantry, wyches are better at up close tank/dread wrecking.

I don't think one is overall 'better' than another. Just a matter of what your local scene is like and what the rest of your list contains.
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom   Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 05:08

Cavash wrote:
I find having larger numbers of Wyches much more effective.

I agree, because of the simple fact that the wyches have 6+ saves at T3
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom   Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 08:58

The problem with a large number of wyches..is that the same % die when your vehicle explodes..so quick math ish..... A unit of 5 in your venom explodes.... wounds on 3's...3 ish wounds... maybe save one...but generally not..so 2 alive.. a waste of 30 points...

A unit of 10 explodes..6.6 wounds...save 1 ish...5.5 ish die... soo 50-60 points lost..

Sort of why I started running warrior venom. Because you can lose all but one..and still have that damned blaster
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom   Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 10:12

I'm happy to throw away a 60pt wych unit to pop a 130pt leman russ.
They are less survivable than warriors, but only marginally, and not at all against bolters or splinters.

My main concern is that I dont have a single large troop choice planned, but objectives only matter come T5/6 anyway, so I just dont plan to hold them from the start

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom   Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 10:54

Quote :
A unit of 10 explodes..6.6 wounds...save 1 ish...5.5 ish die... soo 50-60 points lost..
Yes, but I am not one for mathhammer. I will play a unit and if after several uses it has served me well I shall keep it. Having a lot of transports on the board usually means that you'll get your precious AT Wyches to where they have to be.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom   Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 15:36

I've started using HW Wytches together with Warriors, but I wouldn't replace Warriors entirely. Warriros have a decent threat range inside the Venom, and while the Venom isn't exactly durable (no vehicle we have is), it's atleats mobile enough to avoid many threats. Wytches have a shooting threat range of 14'' (6'' movement and 8'' range on grenade throw) and aren't that impressive at shooting (you can only throw one grenade per squad), so you'll have to disembark and assualt the target vehicle. They'll kill pretty much any vehicle on average rolls, but after that they're dead, since you ahve 5 models with 6+ save sitting in the open. Good tradeoff if you just blew up a Landraider, a Russ or any other expensive tank, but I prefer to also have some troops that can contribute without sacrificing themselves.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom   Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 16:22

A Venom has 12 long ranged poison shots.
5 Kabalites adds 5 mid range poison shots, or ten close range.
5 Wyches adds 5 short range poison shots, CC anti tank and a moderate CC tarpit capability.

Its a lot more multipurpose in my mind.

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom   Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 16:48

Wyches are more of a suicide unit. So not really scoring.
Warriors can be played more defensively and so more likely to score

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom   Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 18:55

Depends where you put your objectives.....

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom   Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 20:16

I haven't used wyches since 5th, and ive been fine. I just hated the weediness of T3 sv 6+ out of combat... A squad of 5 isnt a good tarpit either, unless you are assaulting an HQ out of his squad or something.

I prefer doing my AT at a distance with my ravagers....

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PostSubject: Re: Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom   Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom I_icon_minitimeMon Feb 18 2013, 23:43

colinsherlow wrote:
Wyches are more of a suicide unit. So not really scoring.
Warriors can be played more defensively and so more likely to score

While I agree that warriors can be played more defensively than wyches because of their gun's longer range I think wyches can actually hold an objective better than warriors in some cases (when they are in cover) . Both are T3 and both of their armorial saves amount to nothing against bolter fire but wyches are much better in cc so its less likely they'll get driven off the objective by a charge pluses they have an actual reason to take the squad's character upgrade (which means higher leadership) and they have access to a dirt cheap PGL with all the benefits that come with it plus a one in six chance of starting with FNP.
Id argue that while warriors are more effective while holding an objective wyches are better at holding an objective so long as you have cover. This is all comparative though since they both kinda sucked at it Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom   Wych Venom vs Warrior Venom I_icon_minitimeSun May 12 2013, 18:39

I apologize for resurecting this (is three months dead?) thread, but I recently started considering this option & I think it offers quite a bit more flexibility (tactically speaking) than a basic blaster warrior squad.
The way I see it:
Warriors essentially boil down to 1 blast shot against AV & throw in 4-8 Splinter shots on top if against toughness values, a decent amount of dakka but still at best 4 shots less than & at 1/3 to 2/3s the range of the venom armament anyway. Ok so you can near double your venom shots at short range, get a few extra at most of your SC range and one blaster shot.
Now this is where I kinda disagree with that old adage (think thats how you spell that) about the more DL the better. I think it should be alot of DL (Ive got 15 @1750), and a few haywire wych blob/grenades to be chucked at pockets of stiff armoured resistance ~~~OR~~~ Sent into a threatening enemy unit, even 60 pts of wyches can tie up a tactical squad (or essentially most things) for quite a while - no venom killing bolter-spam then! Until of course you look at Overwatch which we all know sucks for wyches - so double up on those targets that need to be moshpitted immediately, yes you would likely lose the first squad, but the second would hit it unmolested and tie it up. Essentially saving your venom from return bolter fire - potential destruction - potentially other venoms like those with blaster born.
When you have 15 DL, what difference does 3 more make when instead you could take 3 instant dead tanks coupons or who double to team up and swamp dangerous targets. And then theres transports (dont forget about those!)
Step1: assault transport
Step 2: 'nade transport
Step 3: raid contents
A blessing for your wyches - a overwatch-free entry into combat at the cost of a charge bonus. Undeniably useful for a wychpit.
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