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 Precision Strike and multiple combat

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Tony Spectacular
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Tony Spectacular

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PostSubject: Precision Strike and multiple combat   Precision Strike and multiple combat I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2013, 20:57

So lets say that my Wyches, headed up by a Succubus with an Agonizer, are locked in combat with 2 units, one of which has a 3+, the other of which has a 2+. Call it Greenwing and Deathwing. The Succubus is in sole base contact with one of the DW. She rolls a 6 to hit. The Agonizer AP3 is worthless against the opponent she's in base contact with, but will work against a GW. The verbiage of Precision Strike says 'Wounds from Precision Strikes are allocated against an engaged model of your choice in the unit he is attacking...' However, technically the unit that I want to allocate the wound against is different from the unit I am in base with. Can I allocate the wound anywhere in the combat that I please, or am I stuck allocating it amongst the unit I'm in base with?
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Ehawther
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PostSubject: Re: Precision Strike and multiple combat   Precision Strike and multiple combat I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2013, 21:31

@Tony Spectacular wrote:
...The Succubus is in sole base contact with one of the DW...The verbiage of Precision Strike says 'Wounds from Precision Strikes are allocated against an engaged model of your choice in the unit he is attacking...'

No BRB on hand, but I'll take your description of GW's wording to be accurate. The key in this statement is engaged and unless I have recalled the rules incorrectly, engaged means two things:
  1. In base to base contact
  2. Within 2" of a friendly model in base to base contact

As long as both the DW unit and GW unit have been successfully assaulted by the same unit with your Succubus in it and there are GW models within 2" of a DW model then yes, you should be able to allocate your AP3 wounds to them. Challenges, Pile-in moves and terrain will make this slightly more complicated.
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Tony Spectacular
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Tony Spectacular

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PostSubject: Re: Precision Strike and multiple combat   Precision Strike and multiple combat I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2013, 22:05

I don't think your interpretation stands. If my Wyches engage a GW unit, and a DW unit enters the fray on the other side of the Wyches (180 degrees away from the GW), the two enemy units wouldn't necessarily be within 2", but could potentially lead to my Succubus being in base with a DW model while still being considered to be engaged in conflict with both. All other rules regarding CC would apply, such as consolidation, ability to escape the combat, ability to be targeted by ranged fire, wounds applied to winning combat, etc... What keeps it from being cut and dry is the phrasing '...an engaged model of your choice in the unit he is attacking', which, though there is no question whether or not the GW model is in the same conflict, leaves the question as to whether or not the unit membership is significant, or if being a participant in the combat is enough.
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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Precision Strike and multiple combat   Precision Strike and multiple combat I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 15 2013, 00:08

BRB p.28 wrote:
A model that is in base contact or engaged, with just one enemy unit when it comes to strike must attack that unit.

A model that is in base contact or engaged, with more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split it's Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting it's Attacks immediately before rolling To Hit.

So you have to declare, which unit you want to attack before rolling To Hit and Precision Strikes can only be allocated against models in the unit you attacked.
Sounds pretty clear to me.

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Tony Spectacular
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Tony Spectacular

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PostSubject: Re: Precision Strike and multiple combat   Precision Strike and multiple combat I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 15 2013, 00:45

So if the Succubus is in base solely with a DW model, but wants to allocate wounds to GW models that are involved in the conflict, she can freely do so, thereby completely ignoring base contact allocation rules? That's not the case. The rules you cited only apply when a model is in base with models from multiple units, or is in combat with more than one but in base with none. See, the inset picture clearly states that the models (A, B, D, E) can only attack the models that they are in base with. The rules for CC targeting and base contact in multiple combat are pretty clear. But Precision Strike supercedes these rules. The Precision Strike rules are clear(ish) when in single combat. My question is whether or not the Precision Strike rules supercede the base contact rules when in multiple combat.
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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Precision Strike and multiple combat   Precision Strike and multiple combat I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 15 2013, 01:13

I'll try to make clear, what I tried to say. The multiple combat rules tell you which unit can be attacked. So, if you're only in base contact or engaged with said DW (or GW) unit you can only attack it, but if you are in base contact or engaged with the DW and the GW unit you can split your Attacks.
Attacks are split before rolling To Hit and Precision Strikes can only hit models in the unit you attacked, so if the Attack, that resulted in a Precision Strike, was directed against the DW unit it can only be allocated to DW models, because you attacked their unit, and vice versa.
If you were eligible to attack the other unit or not doesn't matter at all, because you have to decide before rolling To Hit and can't change it afterwards.

Precision Strike supersedes the wound allocation rules, but not the directing attacks rule.

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Precision Strike and multiple combat Tdcawardssigbestrules
I must rule with eye and claw — as the hawk among lesser birds.


Last edited by Tiri Rana on Fri Feb 15 2013, 12:56; edited 1 time in total
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Tony Spectacular
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PostSubject: Re: Precision Strike and multiple combat   Precision Strike and multiple combat I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 15 2013, 02:34

So if the Succubus is in base with a DW model, but the unit to which the Succubus belongs is in combat with the DW unit as well as a GW unit, the Succubus can only direct her attacks against the DW unit. Right?

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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Precision Strike and multiple combat   Precision Strike and multiple combat I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 15 2013, 13:02

If the Succubus is in base contact with only DW models it can only direct it's Attacks against the DW unit.
If it is in base contact with only GW models it can only direct it's Attacks against the GW unit.
If it is in base contact with both units' models it can direct it's Attacks against both units, but has to declare, which Attack is directed against which unit before rolling To Hit.
If it is engaged with only GW models it can only direct it's Attacks against the GW unit.
If it is engaged with only DW models it can only direct it's Attacks against the DW unit.
If it is engaged with both units' models it can direct it's Attacks against both units, but has to declare, which Attack is directed against which unit before rolling To Hit.

So, whatever happens a Precision Strike can only ever affect one unit.

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Ehawther
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PostSubject: Re: Precision Strike and multiple combat   Precision Strike and multiple combat I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 15 2013, 13:58

@Tony Spectacular wrote:
So if the Succubus is in base with a DW model, but the unit to which the Succubus belongs is in combat with the DW unit as well as a GW unit, the Succubus can only direct her attacks against the DW unit. Right?

Not necessarily. As Tiri Rana stated, you have the option to declare how you want to split your attacks between all units in base-to-base contact and engaged. Again, engaged is a very key word here. Engaged is explained as follows:

BRB p.23 wrote:
A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
  • During its Initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemy models.
  • During its Initiative step, it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in the same combat.

As long as your Succubus has GW models within 2" of the sole DW model she is in base contact with she could, before rolls to hit are made, declare that she is going to direct her attacks at said GW models, and thus also direct here Precise Strikes at specific models from the GW unit in this "engaged bubble." No distinction is made in terms of who is engaged in combat by unit as long as they meet that previous criteria of being in the same combat. Only the term "friendly model" is used and as Tiri Rana pointed out, you simply need to declare your attacks against a unit before you roll. It really is a situation about small distances based on those around your individual Succubus and the models nearby.

Could she hit the Power Axe Sarge way over on the other side of the combat? No
Could she hit the plasma gun touting Space Marine who is within 1" of the DW model she is in base contact with? Yes, provided she declares her attacks as described above.


Last edited by Ehawther on Fri Feb 15 2013, 14:16; edited 1 time in total
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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Precision Strike and multiple combat   Precision Strike and multiple combat I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 15 2013, 17:55

No, if you're in base contact with only one unit you have to attack this unit. As written under point one. You can only attack both if you're in base contact with both or engaged with both. Being in base contact with one supersedes being engaged with the other.

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Ehawther
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PostSubject: Re: Precision Strike and multiple combat   Precision Strike and multiple combat I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 15 2013, 20:57

I really don't read it that way:

BRB p.28 wrote:

A model that is in base contact or engaged, with just one enemy unit when it comes to strike must attack that unit.

A model that is in base contact or engaged, with more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows, can split it's Attacks freely between those units. Declare how each model is splitting it's Attacks immediately before rolling To Hit.

It clearly states "or" for these two options (base contact or engaged) rather than how you have described things Tiri Rana. I would read that as if you are both in base contact and engaged with the two units then you have a choice, thus the "or," and if only one unit is in base contact or engaged, then obviously, you only have one choice to pick from. I don't read any preference or order of priority from those points given the circumstances we're talking about. Now if the first point had said:

"A model that is in base contact with just one enemy unit when it comes to strike must attack that unit" I would understand your suggestion, but we are given that extra modifier of "or engaged" that allows, in this potential situation, the GW to be targeted by the Succubus as well (as long as there are GW models that are actually "engaged" as described in the rules.)

I'll look through the rules again tonight, but if you can point out where I have misread something before I can get home to my rulebook, please do so. I don't think I'm wrong, but I very well could be.
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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Precision Strike and multiple combat   Precision Strike and multiple combat I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 15 2013, 22:40

Look at the picture accompanying the rules and you'll see the point. The text is vague, but the picture shows that base contact supersedes engagement and the rule text uses a xor and not an or, which isn't noticeable in text form.

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Ehawther
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PostSubject: Re: Precision Strike and multiple combat   Precision Strike and multiple combat I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 15 2013, 23:58

Great call on the text and picture on p. 28 for the associated rules. From that it looks like you are 100% correct!

If you really want to get technical (RAW vs RAI) I suppose there is an argument for either way, and while it stands to reason that you should attack the model you're in base contact with before the model that's not in base contact with you, the wording of this rule is completely contradictory.

Great catch.
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PostSubject: Re: Precision Strike and multiple combat   Precision Strike and multiple combat I_icon_minitime

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