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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2013, 14:00

Things like this make me lose hope in this game.

Quote :

Mushkilla: The nice thing with both the razorwing and the void raven is that they can deepstrike. If you are going second this can make them pretty nifty against most enemy flyers as they can come in behind them so that their S8-9 lances can hit the enemies flyers soft AV10 armour. Deepstrike opens up a lot of options for them.

abusepuppy: If you Deep Strike a flyer in Zoom mode (which is the only way you'd have Skyfire), you will crash immediately because you did not move 18". Cruising Speed is not the same thing as moving a specific distance.

Mushkilla: From the FAQ:

Q: Can a Flyer with the Deep Strike special rule still choose to
arrive from Reserves via Deep Strike? (p80)
A: Yes.

_Garnet_ : P. 36 - "Vehicles, except for Walkers, count as having moved at Cruising Speed (even immobile vehicles)."

abusepuppy: Again: moving at cruising speed isn't the same thing as moving a particular distance. It dictates what weapons you fire and the maximum distance you can move, but it doesn't actually tell you how far you actually DID move.

It's stupid as hell, and in a friendly game I'd probably let people do it without punishing them for it, but the rules are relatively clear on what happens.

Link to original blog post over at 3++. 3++ is going to become YTTH 2.0 at this rate.


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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2013, 14:12

Quote :
If a Flyer Zooms, it has a combat speed of l8" and a cruising speed of 36"'

Quote :
Vehicles, except for Walkers, count as having moved at Cruising Speed (even immobile vehicles).

So a deep striking flyer counts as having moved at cruising speed (ie > 18")

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2013, 14:41

“If a Flyer Zooms, it has a Combat Speed of 18" and a Cruising Speed of up to 36".” - According to the FAQ

Is what I think people will argue. Though cruising speed should mean it has moved between 19"-36".

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Last edited by Mushkilla on Tue Feb 12 2013, 14:44; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2013, 14:44

his arguement is because it didnt move atleast 18", you crash. He is saying actually moving and count as are different. its a long stretch, and it would never last unless you are in la-la land (aka... the internet) So I wouldnt worry about it too much

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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2013, 14:48

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
his arguement is because it didnt move atleast 18", you crash. He is saying actually moving and count as are different. its a long stretch, and it would never last unless you are in la-la land (aka... the internet) So I wouldnt worry about it too much

I guess I should have listened to you when you told me 3++ was in the same league as YTTH. Very Happy

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2013, 15:05

Honestly, what does he think "counts as having moved" means if it doesn't mean that the vehicle counts as having moved. It doesn't have to move 18" if it counts as moving more than 18"

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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2013, 16:33

Part 2

Quote :

Mushkilla: I think I have found the answer:

“If a Flyer Zooms, it has a Combat Speed of 18" and a Cruising Speed of up to 36".” - According to the FAQ

"Vehicles, except for Walkers, count as having moved at Cruising Speed (even immobile vehicles)." - BRB page 36

So a flyer that moved at cruising speed must have moved more between 19"-36" and therefore not explode.

abusepuppy: You've got the logic mixed up on that one; you're making a "If A, then B, B is true, therefore A" mistake.[/b]

As for me saying GW intent is clear:

Quote :

abusepuppy: It's good that your telepathic communication with Jervis gives you infinite insight into the mind of the rules designers, but us mere mortals are forced to rely on the words that they wrote in order to figure out what they were trying to say, and thus in many cases the "clear intent" ends up being a bit murky.


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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2013, 16:38

Oh dear god. Is abusepuppy a bit thick or something? It is written as clear as day in the rules. No interpretation needed. Deep striking flyers count as having moved at cruising speed, which, for a flyer is > 18". End of. If he's unable to grasp that simple logic then that is frankly his problem, or that of his education system.




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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2013, 16:43

You have telepathic communication with Jervis?! Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2013, 17:00

@Evil Space Elves wrote:
You have telepathic communication with Jervis?! Razz

Why do you think reavers got so good this edition?

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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2013, 17:01

And I thought Abuse Puppy was one of the more clever ones...

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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2013, 18:39

Does Jervis still write rules?

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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 12 2013, 18:59

he should of said phil kelly... but that is just semantics at this point

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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 13 2013, 09:46

This may just be the dumbest post I have ever seen on a 40K forum/blog.

abusepuppy wrote:
The difference is that you're taking things the wrong direction- a flyer that moves more than 18" is moving cruising speed, but not every flyer that moves at cruising speed has necessarily moved more than 18".

The two aren't equivalent statements because it's entirely valid to think that there might be other ways of counting as moving cruising speed. (For the record, I don't consider the words "counts as" to have any particular relevance to the argument- if the rule said "A vehicle that deep strikes moves at cruising speed" I would interpret it exactly the same.)

> In what capacity has a flyer counted as moving >18" under your interpretation of the rules?

Vehicle movement speeds are, essentially without exception, counted by measuring the physical distance they move on the table. A flyer (or other vehicle) that has been placed by Deep Strike has not covered any distance at all on the table, it has simply been placed in a particular location. Thus, while it counts as moving at cruising speed, it also has moved zero inches- there is no contradiction in those two facts.

Look at another example- if you were to Deep Strike a vehicle and the enemy then assaulted it, would it be hit automatically or on 3+? The former would be my argument, since the vehicle did not actually cross any distance despite moving at cruising speed. To argue that a vehicle is vibrating in place so fast that it is hard to hit seems a bit odd to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 13 2013, 10:33

He makes me want to give up playing, and just model..... I won't but wow talk about weeping for the human race. (please say he is not American, as in the united States.) We already look bad enough on the internet.

P.S. As a United States Resident, it annoys me along with most of the world that we are called Americans....

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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 13 2013, 13:50

OT:
@ravengoescaw wrote:

P.S. As a United States Resident, it annoys me along with most of the world that we are called Americans....

Well that escalated quickly.

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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 13 2013, 14:44

So, according to 'abusepuppy' we have the option to turn our flyers into a very expensive, one use, S6 AP- Large Blast inaccurate barrage type weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 13 2013, 14:53

@Dra'al Nacht wrote:
So, according to 'abusepuppy' we have the option to turn our flyers into a very expensive, one use, S6 AP- Large Blast inaccurate barrage type weapon.

Yep, which is why I had to break out the old Dr Cox "You're Wrong!" song. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 13 2013, 16:55

Oh dear. Abusepuppy is abusing me. And I'm not even a puppy. However will I cope?

Quote :
So your response is essentially, "Gosh, most times in the past you have had an opinion that is rational and makes sense, but since you are disagreeing with ME this time you are FULL OF POOP IN THE HEAD and A BIG DUMB IDIOT"?

Really?

That's pretty classy, mang

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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 13 2013, 22:06

Abuse puppy can be very frustrating on here.... guh!

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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2013, 14:40

Someone else is now attempting to argue this subject although his arguments are frankly even more ridiculous than abusepuppy's.

Only problem is that I'm physically finding it hard to respond anymore. The stupid comments section just gets narrower and narrower and I can't even read what is being posted now.

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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2013, 14:56

Yeah it's impossible to read anything now. To be honest that abusepuppy fanboy was getting quite upset. Reminds me of Stelek fanboys. Plus ça change...

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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2013, 14:57

He's now gone into a separate comment so I can read it again. I've posted what I hope is the final nail in the coffin of this stupid argument.

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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2013, 15:03

@Count Adhemar wrote:

abusepuppy wrote:
Look at another example- if you were to Deep Strike a vehicle and the enemy then assaulted it, would it be hit automatically or on 3+? The former would be my argument, since the vehicle did not actually cross any distance despite moving at cruising speed. To argue that a vehicle is vibrating in place so fast that it is hard to hit seems a bit odd to me.

My question would have to be deepstriking is the act of say... a landspeeder flying in from over the other side of the battlefield. Is that not movement? He really wants to pull in fluff, and cant even get the fluff right...

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PostSubject: Re: Deepstriking flyers!   Deepstriking flyers! I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 15 2013, 10:30

I sent an email to the GW FAQ team. They seem to like answering stupid questions and it will stop any attempt at unsportsmanlike behaviour of such an epic scale from happening. Counts as seems to be a hard concept grasp for some members of the 40k community. Though I would expect most TOs to laugh real hard at someone trying to interpret the rules in such a fashion. Sigh.

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