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 Best way to deal with Necron fliers

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ThePhish
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PostSubject: Re: Best way to deal with Necron fliers   Best way to deal with Necron fliers - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 13 2013, 15:59

@huymix wrote:
Why would you need to place the Wracks in Area terrain when they are manning the Quad Gun? The Defence Line itself is perfectly fine for that use case and would be a waste of area terrain.

If you play the proper 6th edition way, technically the Aegis would go down on the table before terrain and I believe any other terrain has to be placed at least 3" away from it. Beyond that, if you're playing 5th-ish style, then that's a house rule and then its up you and your group.

I personally like using Wracks for the use of a quad gun. I have found that my small 3 man squads will get cut down though so be prepared to have multiple back up squads capable of using the Quad gun.

I was thinking 2x 3 man squads of wracks, the "multiple back-up squads" like you suggested. Area terrain, b/c going to ground inside area terrain gives you +2 to your cover save (I just learned that from Mush 2 days ago and confirmed in book). So if you're sitting in ruins, you can go to ground with the squad being shot at for 2+ cover save and let the back up squad take over . Even if 6th edition fortification/terrain placement order is like you said (I don't know), you could still drop area terraing next to the aegis in such close proximity that you could still get the cover save and fire the quad gun.

However, Seshiru has a very good point, in that the enemy would probably just shoot the gun itself, which I don't think gets a cover save.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Best way to deal with Necron fliers   Best way to deal with Necron fliers - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 13 2013, 16:04

@ThePhish wrote:
So if you're sitting in ruins, you can go to ground with the squad being shot at for 2+ cover save

Ruins don't give the +2 for going to ground so they would only have a 3+ cover save, which is the same as going to ground in area terrain.

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ThePhish
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PostSubject: Re: Best way to deal with Necron fliers   Best way to deal with Necron fliers - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 13 2013, 16:46

...apparently I need to re-read that section. Thank you.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Best way to deal with Necron fliers   Best way to deal with Necron fliers - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 13 2013, 16:48

Area terrain is 5+ cover and +2 for going to ground.
Ruins are 4+ cover and +1 for going to ground.

Same result either way.

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ThePhish
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PostSubject: Re: Best way to deal with Necron fliers   Best way to deal with Necron fliers - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 13 2013, 16:58

Got it. I'll read over it tonight.

offtopic @Count Adhemar, A Knight's Tale is a great movie. One of mine and my wife's favorites. /offtopic.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Best way to deal with Necron fliers   Best way to deal with Necron fliers - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 13 2013, 17:04

If you are on the ground floor of a ruin (area terrain) and behind the ruin in terms of where the shooter is shooting from, I don't see why you can't get a 2+ save. 4+ for being behind a ruins +2 for area terrain.

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curebdc
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PostSubject: Re: Best way to deal with Necron fliers   Best way to deal with Necron fliers - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 13 2013, 17:22

Question: does the beam weapon have 360* turrets? My buddy fired from behind last game, want to make sure its legal

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huymix
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PostSubject: Re: Best way to deal with Necron fliers   Best way to deal with Necron fliers - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 13 2013, 19:26

Can I just clarify why the Quad gun doesn't get a cover save? I don't have the rulebook in front of me but I thought it might because it is behind the aegis.

As far as I understand it, the Doom scythe does not have a 360 arc. He could place the first point in front and the second point 2d6 backwards, but that is very different then a 360 arc (like a Heldrake)
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ThePhish
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PostSubject: Re: Best way to deal with Necron fliers   Best way to deal with Necron fliers - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 13 2013, 20:55

I'm pretty sure that they only have a 45° arc of fire due to the weapon not being able to pivot. That's the way we played it anyway.

pg 16, if the doom scythe can't draw LOS to the target, you can't actually damage anything out of the 45 degree cone of LOS unless the weapon specifically says it can, like barrage.

For simplicity sake, we didn't bother measuring to figure out where the LOS would end. We just used the line and as long as it didn't go around the corner of a building, it hit.

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Best way to deal with Necron fliers   Best way to deal with Necron fliers - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2013, 02:58

I'm fairly certain that the quad gun follows the normal rules for cover saves and would benefit as long as the 25% is covered.
Also don't forget you get a 2+ for going to ground behind a defense line

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huymix
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PostSubject: Re: Best way to deal with Necron fliers   Best way to deal with Necron fliers - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2013, 16:03

Ok the Quad Gun gets a save.

However, I don't think the 25% rule really is necessary because the gun itself is not a vehicle. Is this a requirement for artillery or something?

It has a toughness and everything, so going by being behind a line, would grant the save.

For the Doom Scythe it is correct that wounds cannot be allocated to those units out of line of sight.

However, this is not a requirement for vehicles because as long as they are hit, the armour pen, saves and damage results are unaffected.

An example, Doom scythe shoots line around building wall that it cannot see past and it hits say 3 models and a Rhino. If the unit has less than 3 models failing wounds and in line of sight (so say failed 3 wounds but only 2 are in line of sight), the difference is lost (only 2 are killed in this example). However, the Rhino is hit and continues the sequence of armour pen, saves and damage results as normal.

This is how I currently understand it.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Best way to deal with Necron fliers   Best way to deal with Necron fliers - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2013, 16:11

@huymix wrote:
For the Doom Scythe it is correct that wounds cannot be allocated to those units out of line of sight.

However, this is not a requirement for vehicles because as long as they are hit, the armour pen, saves and damage results are unaffected.

Not sure about that. Page 73 says:

Quote :
When a unit fires at a vehicle, it must be able to see its hull or turret

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ThePhish
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PostSubject: Re: Best way to deal with Necron fliers   Best way to deal with Necron fliers - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2013, 17:07

The wording on the deathray may skirt that. It doesn't fire "at" a unit, but simply picks a spot within 12" of the gun, within range, then chooses a second point 3d6" away in any direction. Draws a straight line between the 2 points. Anything under the line gets hit, friendly or enemy.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Best way to deal with Necron fliers   Best way to deal with Necron fliers - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2013, 17:10

I'm with Adhemar on this, unless specifically says it can hit what it can't see. Then it can't

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Best way to deal with Necron fliers   Best way to deal with Necron fliers - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2013, 17:51

@ThePhish wrote:
The wording on the deathray may skirt that. It doesn't fire "at" a unit, but simply picks a spot within 12" of the gun, within range, then chooses a second point 3d6" away in any direction. Draws a straight line between the 2 points. Anything under the line gets hit, friendly or enemy.


You can't allocated wounds to models the unit can't see.

Vehicles use their weapon arc to determine what they can see.

The Death Ray is a hull mounted weapon and therefore has a 45degree arc.

Although it can hit models behind it, it can't wound them as it can't see them. You can only allocate wounds to models you can see.

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Canyoneromikos
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PostSubject: Re: Best way to deal with Necron fliers   Best way to deal with Necron fliers - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2013, 18:27

I use Eldrad and a quad gun as my anti flyer.

Eldrad will prescience 2 ravagers and the quadgun itercepts.

This isn't the game defining anti flyer but for me its allways been enough.

If your really worried about necron flyers use a fire dragon exarch with crack shot and tank hunter. get him to man the quad gun and see necron flyers dissapear.
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curebdc
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PostSubject: Re: Best way to deal with Necron fliers   Best way to deal with Necron fliers - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2013, 19:46

I like the idea of eldrad or a farseer. Since he can fill many roles you wouldnt be dumping any points in only antI flyers. Usually I just avoid. Last game the necron croissant killed like 3 vehicles but I handedly defeated them.

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Of witch, and demon, and large coffin-worm,
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huymix
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PostSubject: Re: Best way to deal with Necron fliers   Best way to deal with Necron fliers - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 14 2013, 20:15

@Mushkilla wrote:


Although it can hit models behind it, it can't wound them as it can't see them. You can only allocate wounds to models you can see.

I agree with this. And maybe I'm reading the post wrong but wounds are not the same thing as vehicle damage. Once a tank is hit, the sequence continues as there isn't language similar to that of restricting allocation based on line of sight.
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