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Deyfluff
Kabalite Warrior
Deyfluff

Posts : 138
Join date : 2012-07-23

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PostSubject: beast spam   beast spam I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 07 2013, 02:12

Hey I haven't been on here in awhile I started a Space Wolves army and got caught up in their Viking glory :p but I am back now and have some ideas regarding beasts. I have always loved the beast models and stats, but disliked the prices of the models. After playing games that have been primarily based on shooting I want something more assault based. What do you guys think of an army centered around beastmasters mainly with khyermae and razorwing flocks.


This is what I had in mind...

5 beast mastersw/ venom blade w/ 10 khymerae 6 razorwings flocks- 275

5 beast masters w/ VB w/ 5 khymerae 1clawed fiend 6 razorwings flocks- 255


Run them with the Baron, 3 ravagers and possibly Eldar allies....help/advice would be awesome Smile
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Murkglow
Kabalite Warrior
Murkglow

Posts : 242
Join date : 2012-10-17

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PostSubject: Re: beast spam   beast spam I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 07 2013, 03:52

It's hard to recommend more then one squad of Beasts, simply because you only have one Baron to lead them and he brings so much to the squad (Grenades, Hit & Run, Stealth, ect...). That said I'm all for running that one squad, I just doubt you could call it "beast spam."

That aside here are a few ideas regarding squads:
1) I don't really think you need more then 5 Khymera (ie 1 Beastmaster worth). Khymera are really just there to provide 4++ saves so that your Razorwings don't get Insta Deathed. Otherwise Razorwing Flocks are really the cream of the crop. Tons attacks, Rending, wounds, what's not to love?
2) Another idea I've heard for Beasts is to run a squad composed entirely of Claw Fiends. Generally CFs aren't used (and I would not recommend them in a mixed squad) because their Toughness is wasted thanks to the lower squad majority toughness. If however you run just Beastmasters and CFs your toughness is preserved. I haven't really tested or thought too much on this idea, it's more just an idea I've read about.
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Lay_Ayanesha
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: beast spam   beast spam I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 07 2013, 06:22

Don't waste points for the beast masters. Even 5 points for just one attack are too much.

I prefer ten khymeras. It is the right size as cover imho.
Claw fiends should only field together with the masters. Don't mix them with other beasts. I run one unit with four beasts. The majority toughness of five with multiple lifepoints is a big surprise for many enemies. The unit is very fast and it doesn't need Sathonyx to be effective.
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Vasara
Incognito assault marine
Vasara

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PostSubject: Re: beast spam   beast spam I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 07 2013, 06:35

I also favor more than 5 khymeray and no clawed fiend. One squad is enough with the Baron. I myself play 4bm, 7khy and 4 rzf but I been thinking of reducing the size of the squad the the usual 3bm 5 khy and 4rwf.

5 Bm with 5 CF might be fun for non competetive games though1 At least they are faster than Crots but has to pay tha BM tax.

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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: beast spam   beast spam I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 07 2013, 09:27

I was previously running the standard 'net list of 3 Beastmasters, 5 Khymerae and 4 Razorwings but found that the Khymerae could not provide protection from enough angles to stop the Razorwings getting instagibbed by S6 weaponry so I have now decided to run another 5 Khymerae and 2 more Razorwings to bring the pack to full strength. Will let you know how it goes when I use it.

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Massaen
Klaivex
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PostSubject: Re: beast spam   beast spam I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 07 2013, 10:47

While many disagree, I find the unit underwhelming. I ran a full 5 masters, 10 khymera, 4 flocks and a fiend along with the baron and they failed time and again for me against many different targets.

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Mushkilla
Arena Champion
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PostSubject: Re: beast spam   beast spam I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 07 2013, 12:28

I don't understand why people take Khymera any more, if you run them in front they will just eat bolters and waste their 4++ on them, and once they are dead then you opponent will fire their big guns and ID your flocks. If you run only razorwing flocks and use cover they will still have a 4-5+ save or 3-4+ save with the baron and won't get whittled down by bolters, they are only 5pts more and with good cover use will have a cover save almost all the time. It just seems to be a lot more useful than losing a bunch Khymeras of to some bolter fire.

At least that's how I see it.

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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: Re: beast spam   beast spam I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 07 2013, 13:04

What about if you pad some of the front with Beastmasters? As characters they look out sir on a 4+ and then have flocks and khymerae equal distance from each one and choose where the shot goes.

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Massaen
Klaivex
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PostSubject: Re: beast spam   beast spam I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 07 2013, 13:19

That's what I did with the fiend and baron... Worked ok.

The main problem is the unit lacks reliable bite

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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: beast spam   beast spam I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 07 2013, 13:39

@Mushkilla wrote:
I don't understand why people take Khymera any more, if you run them in front they will just eat bolters and waste their 4++ on them, and once they are dead then you opponent will fire their big guns and ID your flocks. If you run only razorwing flocks and use cover they will still have a 4-5+ save or 3-4+ save with the baron and won't get whittled down by bolters, they are only 5pts more and with good cover use will have a cover save almost all the time. It just seems to be a lot more useful than losing a bunch Khymeras of to some bolter fire.

Depends on the terrain set up. We tend to have a few large pieces of terrain which makes hopping from cover to cover very hard or impossible. I can usually start off in cover but after that I will be in the open for at least one turn before I can make it into combat so the Khymerae are essential. They're also pretty good in combat if any of them make it that far. They are however, primarily meatshields for the Razors. It's also worth noting that if your opponent is expending a lot of S6 weaponry on a Beast pack, he's not shooting your vehicles! And as the entire beast pack costs about the same as 3 Raiders, I'd say that was a decent benefit.

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Vasara
Incognito assault marine
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PostSubject: Re: beast spam   beast spam I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 08 2013, 13:17

@Mushkilla wrote:
I don't understand why people take Khymera any more, if you run them in front they will just eat bolters and waste their 4++ on them, and once they are dead then you opponent will fire their big guns and ID your flocks. If you run only razorwing flocks and use cover they will still have a 4-5+ save or 3-4+ save with the baron and won't get whittled down by bolters, they are only 5pts more and with good cover use will have a cover save almost all the time. It just seems to be a lot more useful than losing a bunch Khymeras of to some bolter fire.

At least that's how I see it.

That way they would attract even more S6+ shooting. A good thing since that shooting is not aimed towards your raiders and venoms then. Down side is that you'd have to get a almost useless beastmaster for every two flocks.

And other thing is that like the chymeraes S4 combined with their A3. Against Targets that have a 5+ or similar save they are the ones that make it count in sheer volume of saves the enemy has to make compard to birds S3.

In vehicle wrecking khymeras are the best beast there is (AV10 rear). They have so many Attacks that it is possible to wreck 3hp of the tank and leave it standing there for cover agains retaliation. Even better if there are troops in and you can surround tha tank. With razorwing flocks there is possibility to explode the tank and not get the benefits from wrecking it.
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ThePhish
Hellion
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Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : Birmingham, AL

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PostSubject: Re: beast spam   beast spam I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 08 2013, 19:00

@Vasara wrote:
In vehicle wrecking khymeras are the best beast there is (AV10 rear). They have so many Attacks that it is possible to wreck 3hp of the tank and leave it standing there for cover agains retaliation. Even better if there are troops in and you can surround tha tank. With razorwing flocks there is possibility to explode the tank and not get the benefits from wrecking it.

This. 10 khymera can wreck a vehicle easy, so they make a good dual threat unit. I've wrecked 2 rhinos with full hull points in 1 assaults with a 4x BM, 10x k, 4x RW unit.

I've also run into what Massaen was saying. Mostly due to the squad being so big, or in such tight quarters that they unit didn't get to make all of it's attacks and got wiped due to only a couple of losses. I've had to get picky about who/what I assault. T5+ is a no-no. It just doesn't work and they die. It doesn't help that the Baron is big wuss in cc.

Like others, I like the 10 khymera for being able to essentially bubble wrap the rest of the unit.

I haven't tried it yet, but I like the idea of sticking a CF into the unit and putting a RW, K, and CF in base contact with the Baron for LOS. Is choosing who the LOS goes to player choice or random? If it's our choice, S6+ goes to the CF to piss him off and make him better, bolter fire to the RW, etc.

As for spamming it. I think it would be great. They're a very durable unit for absorbing shooting attacks. If you took 3 squads, and used all of the remainder of your army for shooting, I think it could work. They could possibly serve in place of 5x wyches w/ haywire with that many squads. You would have to run them near to cover or through cover to keep the cover save though. They would draw most, if not all of the small arms fire away from raiders and present a big, "in your face" threat that has to be dealt with or could wreak havoc once they hit enemy lines. With a potential 24" threat range, you should be moving them forward fast and trying to make cc by turn 2 or 3.

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Plastikente
Sybarite
Plastikente

Posts : 373
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PostSubject: Re: beast spam   beast spam I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 08 2013, 21:37

@ThePhish wrote:
Is choosing who the LOS goes to player choice or random?
BDB, box-outs on p16 and 26 answer your question.

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Deyfluff
Kabalite Warrior
Deyfluff

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Join date : 2012-07-23

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PostSubject: Re: beast spam   beast spam I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 15 2013, 23:53

Thanks for the help. Much appreciated!

@Murkglow wrote:
Another idea I've heard for Beasts is to run a squad composed entirely of Claw Fiends. Generally CFs aren't used (and I would not recommend them in a mixed squad) because their Toughness is wasted thanks to the lower squad majority toughness. If however you run just Beastmasters and CFs your toughness is preserved. I haven't really tested or thought too much on this idea, it's more just an idea I've read about.

I am intrigued by this idea. The very thought of having multiple toughness five models makes me slightly giddly! Razz


@Lay_Ayanesha wrote:
Don't waste points for the beast masters. Even 5 points for just one attack are too much.

I'm not sure what you mean here....the masters are necessary to get the beasts


@Vasara wrote:
I also favor more than 5 khymeray and no clawed fiend. One squad is enough with the Baron. I myself play 4bm, 7khy and 4 rzf but I been thinking of reducing the size of the squad the the usual 3bm 5 khy and 4rwf.

What is your reason for downsizing the squad?

Massen wrote:
While many disagree, I find the unit underwhelming. I ran a full 5 masters, 10 khymera, 4 flocks and a fiend along with the baron and they failed time and again for me against many different targets.

How did they fail? Was your opponent focusing mainly on them? Do you think it would have been any different if you had dropped the fiend for another flock?


@Vasara wrote:
In vehicle wrecking khymeras are the best beast there is (AV10 rear). They have so many Attacks that it is possible to wreck 3hp of the tank and leave it standing there for cover agains retaliation. Even better if there are troops in and you can surround tha tank. With razorwing flocks there is possibility to explode the tank and not get the benefits from wrecking it.

I had never even thought to use them as AT, but I really like the idea.

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colinsherlow
Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: beast spam   beast spam I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 16 2013, 01:51

I love my giant beast pack. 8-10 hounds and 6 flocks. I don't mind if the unit gets shot to bits as that means that the rest of my army isn't getting shot. If more than often takes an entire army's shooting phase to finish them off. And that often isn't enough. Not that you should be letting an entire army shoot them. Just saying!

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Lay_Ayanesha
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PostSubject: Re: beast spam   beast spam I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 16 2013, 08:44

@Deyfluff wrote:

@Lay_Ayanesha wrote:
Don't waste points for the beast masters. Even 5 points for just one attack are too much.

I'm not sure what you mean here....the masters are necessary to get the beasts

Don't waste points for equipement, even five points for a poison weapon are too much, because beast masters have only one attack.
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Deyfluff
Kabalite Warrior
Deyfluff

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PostSubject: Re: beast spam   beast spam I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 17 2013, 02:21

Oh derp derp. I'm dumb
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Niiai
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PostSubject: Re: beast spam   beast spam I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 17 2013, 16:06

When I used bests the last time my I6 units killed of 2 terminators leaving the I5 razorswarms without the possibility to get into base to base contact or another model that was in base to base combat. When my opponent piled in at I1 he got to strike but not my razorswarms.

Is this right?
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Mushkilla
Arena Champion
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PostSubject: Re: beast spam   beast spam I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 17 2013, 16:11

@Niiai wrote:
When I used bests the last time my I6 units killed of 2 terminators leaving the I5 razorswarms without the possibility to get into base to base contact or another model that was in base to base combat. When my opponent piled in at I1 he got to strike but not my razorswarms.

Is this right?

The razor swarms will get a 3" pile in move at I5, so should be able to get into combat.

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Niiai
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PostSubject: Re: beast spam   beast spam I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 17 2013, 16:16

Indeed, but in this case there was a huge wall of khymeras/the baron/beastmasters who where not in base to base with anyone and the 3" move was not enough to move them around and into base to base. At I1 the terminators piled back in swinging their fists.

PS: I also ran into a librarian with warp speed and a staff making his attacks S6. Whenever he rolled 6's to hit he could allocate them to the razorflocks. :-/
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