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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 06 2013, 23:25

Okay, not so much a rules question as a 'what do you think?' question:

My wyches disembark from a raider on the opposite side from some space marines that they want to charge. The space marines shoot their overwatch at them. Should my wyches get a cover save for being behind their Raider?

Strictly speaking the wyches do fit almost completely under the Raiders (except for the bits with the blades), but that's only because they are on a fixed flying base. If I had put them on shorter bases there would be no question of it... but they wouldn't look as cool. So what do you think?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeWed Feb 06 2013, 23:42

I would say 5+ for intervening models is reasonable. You could perfectly legitimately use the shorter of the flying stems that the model is supplied with to lower the raider and leave no doubt but even without that I'd still say 5+

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baster
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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 07 2013, 08:36

if your gunna claim the cover then does that then count as charging through cover(difficult terrain having to stoop/roll under raider)? 3d6 - the highest?

if you have defense grenades and within 8 you wont need the cover safe anyway
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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 07 2013, 08:41

@baster wrote:
if your gunna claim the cover then does that then count as charging through cover(difficult terrain having to stoop/roll under raider)? 3d6 - the highest?

if you have defense grenades and within 8 you wont need the cover safe anyway

Not necessarily. If your rader is on open terrain.
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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Blood angel considering going deldar   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 07 2013, 09:38

That raiders can move over infantry does not mean infantry can move under raiders.

Rules to the contrary?
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeThu Feb 07 2013, 10:50

You can't charge through the vehicle in the first place

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 16 2013, 18:16

@baster wrote:
if you have defense grenades and within 8 you wont need the cover safe anyway

Defensive grenades within 8" in the open only gives you a 6+ cover save, which is a very small chance. Taking cover behind the raider would be a 5+. Being in cover and defensive grenades within 8" would be a 4+, which is a 50-50 chance to survive! I want to take people's advice and charge from cover within 8", but for some reason my opponents always prefer to shoot at my wyches from cover instead of just within 8" of it.

@Massaen wrote:
You can't charge through the vehicle in the first place

Why not?

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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 16 2013, 19:49

Because you cant move *through* a vehicle

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeSat Feb 16 2013, 20:45

@DominicJ wrote:
Because you cant move *through* a vehicle

Surely you can move *under* a vehicle? (Or *over* a vehicle, for that matter?)

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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 17 2013, 08:55

Nope
A skimmer can move "over" you, but that does not mean you can move under a skimmer

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Squierboy
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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 17 2013, 12:22

The rulebook makes reference to having to move around friendly units (e.g. when charging p21) and to not being able to move 'over' friendly units (found the page, then lost it!), but never to not being able to move 'under' them. I actually cannot find the relvent rule in the main movement section of the rulebook - where it should be - so this was quite frustrating to check out!

Anyway there isn't anything that can justify charging through/under a friendly raider.

One other problem I can see is that if your unit is obscured by the skimmer, the unit cannot see it's target for charging because the skimmer will be at least covering their heads (from where you draw LOS). You could leave part of the unit in the open to draw LOS, then charge around the raider, but your target could still focus fire on the guys in the open & you'd still not get a cover save from the raider.

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 17 2013, 22:17

Oh. Wow. So our vehicles can not defend us from being shot at in any way, but they do prevent us from attacking enemies on the other side. Unlike a Rhino, for example, which you can hide behind or use as cover. I guess that's fair though, and space marines do need the cover more than wyches do.

Oh well, another wych idea that didn't work. Thanks though.

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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeSun Feb 17 2013, 23:46

@Barking Agatha wrote:
Oh well, another wych idea that didn't work.

Well they are quite tricky to use as a general assault unit these days, so not surprised you're having trouble. Have you tried tanking the overwatch shots with an independent character or a disposable support squad? A lot of people have switched to using them just as an anti-tank unit; I've stopped using them full-stop for the moment.

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 04:13

On the other hand, I think Reavers or Hellions (provided they save their jump pack move for the assault phase) can do as you're suggesting, since they are allowed to skim over other models. Nicely, there is also no ambiguity about them receiving a cover save from the Raider, as they will be on the same level, although you will have to be careful to ensure they retain line-of-sight.

For wyches, though, you need to have your Raider wreck, so you can take it off the flying base. You could charge through it then, although it would prompt dangerous terrain checks. If you needed the cover save that badly, perhaps fly an empty raider with a shock prow into your enemy shooty squad? Or a disposable Venom sat tantalisingly in front of your opponent's bolters? Move flat out into difficult terrain within 8" of your target? Leave it within scatter range while shooting the enemy with monoscythe missiles?


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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 06:50

You only need to get one model into base contact to make the charge, so you could charge around the raider, and then use your 3" pile in move to get the rest of your wyches into combat.

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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 08:39

A small question about the skimmers then. What if I take my skimmer from its flying base in order to hide it from the enemy LoS or get cover? It is a none the less a flying vehicle, that can move in 3 dimensions. Why can't I just land on the ground for a while?
Is that allowed?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 09:27

@SERAFF wrote:
A small question about the skimmers then. What if I take my skimmer from its flying base in order to hide it from the enemy LoS or get cover? It is a none the less a flying vehicle, that can move in 3 dimensions. Why can't I just land on the ground for a while?
Is that allowed?

Page 83
Quote :
Note that it is not otherwise permitted to remove the flying base, as Skimmers cannot land in battle conditions.

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 10:19

@OP: First and foremost, why do you abandon the idea completely? Page 20: "A unit can never declare a charge against a unit that it cannot reach, nor can it declare a charge against a unit it cannot see." Leave 1 Wych out in the open so it can draw LOS at the unit you want to charge et voila. You benefit from the cover of the Raider and be able to charge (declaring a charge happens before overwatch so...).

@Everybody: I've been trying to find the correct rules for this problem and... Found something pretty strange... Because if in fact you read page 21: "- following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with...". Well I've read the entire Movement Phase again and it mentioned nowhere the movement rules which are quoted on page 21???
- Where does it say that you cannot move through friendly or enemy models?
- Where does it say you cannot pass through gaps narrower than their base?

I even read the Errata/FAQs, but couldn't find it.

I'm not trying to be a d* about the rules (you guys know me), but where does it actually say this ('cause I thought I read it too somewhere once)?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 10:28

@tlronin wrote:
@Everybody: I've been trying to find the correct rules for this problem and... Found something pretty strange... Because if in fact you read page 21: "- following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with...". Well I've read the entire Movement Phase again and it mentioned nowhere the movement rules which are quoted on page 21???
- Where does it say that you cannot move through friendly or enemy models?
- Where does it say you cannot pass through gaps narrower than their base?

I even read the Errata/FAQs, but couldn't find it.

I'm not trying to be a d* about the rules (you guys know me), but where does it actually say this ('cause I thought I read it too somewhere once)?

The bit about enemy models is on page 10.

Quote :
MODELS IN THE WAY
A model cannot move within 1" of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the Assault phase. To move past, they must go around.

For friendly models, I'm still looking!

EDIT

Eureka! Kind of..

The section on page 21 says:

Quote :
Charging models still cannot move through friendly or enemy models, cannot pass through gaps narrower than their base, and cannot
move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not charging.

But, as Thronin pointed out, the movement rules do not prohibit most of this anyway! Looking at the 5th edition rulebook, it seems clear that the section on page 21 is pretty much a copy/paste from the old rulebook. And guess what the old rulebook said in the movement section?

Quote :
A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model...or through a gap between friendly models that is smaller than its own base (or hull) size

So we basically have a situation where the assault rules tell us to follow the movement rules and remind us of certain restrictions that are not in the movement rules anymore. Which rules do we use?

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 10:34

@tlronin wrote:

I'm not trying to be a d* about the rules (you guys know me), but where does it actually say this ('cause I thought I read it too somewhere once)?

They forgot to add it this edition, it just says you can't move through enemy models.

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 10:40

@Count, Mush: Yeah you guys get what I meant. It's -in fact- not in this edition! So move through friendly models and gaps smaller than your base all you want! Very Happy The bit about 'enemy models' is in there indeed, I should've left that bit out of my question. But the rest of the quote on page 21 is in fact not. Shall I e-mail GW? We' ll need 1.4 soon. Wink

@Count; Just to be sure. I indeed meant the rules you quote on page 21. Just to be clear...

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 10:45

I have noticed GW only FAQ things when they consider it a problem (Aka 5+ emails about the same thing). So we should all send an email regarding this to the FAQ team. I know I will! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 10:50

Haha. I won't! I want to be able to move 'through' my Raider with my Wyches! Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 10:54

Well I have sent it! For the greater good.

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PostSubject: Re: Using Raiders as Cover   Using Raiders as Cover I_icon_minitimeTue Feb 19 2013, 11:03

What e-mailadres do you use?

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