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 How do you get anti tank?

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Niiai
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PostSubject: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 30 2013, 14:16

Hello. I am wondering what people who play usually use as their anti tank.

Currently I am using a list with 2 haywire wytches in venoms, 2 splinter cannon warriors in boats, 3 ravagers, the baron with beasts and 1 group of blaster born in venom.

And while this is great it is all very fragile. any of the venom units take a huge hit when it explodes (as it often do) and the ravagers also die very easaly.

What do other people use for AT?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 30 2013, 14:18

I think Ravagers, Blasterborn and HayWyches are probably the most common. Other than that, we're a little light on AT really. Trueborn with Dark Lances, Talos, Scourge with Haywire Blasters, Reavers with Heat Lances/Blasters. Not much else really springs to mind and most of the options are worse than the 3 I listed at the start.

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Mt252368
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 30 2013, 14:24

I use to use my reavers with cluster caltrops (for AI) but recently I have put blasters on them (occasionally I try out the heat lances).

The unit is so quick and versatile. And I love the 2d6 movement in the assault phase after blowing up a tank.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 30 2013, 14:28

Currently my list has 11 blasters and 10 dark lances:

1 archon with blaster
4 warriors squads with blasters
2 reaver squads with three blasters each
4 raiders with dark lances
2 ravagers with three dark lances each

So far it's been more than enough AT even against mech lists. Smile

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 30 2013, 14:43

AT is often as much about how many platforms you have as how many weapons. You could have as many darklight weapons as you want but if they're all on the same model/unit then you're very limited in how many targets you can eliminate. Mush has a decent amount of AT and it's spread around his army so he can target whatever he needs to.


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Niiai
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 30 2013, 15:00

Also on a side note: If you run MSU warrior units do you put them in the awsome venom for anti infantery or the raider for the dark lance?
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SleepyPillow
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 30 2013, 15:21

That depends all on you. A lot of people won't leave the webway without 4+ venoms and msu warriors sure are a good unit to put in a venom.
If you think you already got enough splinter shots than there's no reason to not use raiders instead of venoms.

A naked raider is 5 points cheaper than a venom with double SC but comes without a flickerfield.

I for myself plan on never using a venom again for a long time. They're "james2GDharding" good and that's what I don't like.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 30 2013, 15:34

@Count Adhemar wrote:
AT is often as much about how many platforms you have as how many weapons. You could have as many darklight weapons as you want but if they're all on the same model/unit then you're very limited in how many targets you can eliminate. Mush has a decent amount of AT and it's spread around his army so he can target whatever he needs to.

A really good point. My earlier lists that had 9 heatlances (on three platforms), and three squads of haywire wyches (and three lances though the raiders spend turn 1 moving flat out and by turn 2 they were dead so I'm not going to count them). The list really suffered if you couldn't get the wyches into haywire range, and even though the reavers could somewhat reliably take out three tanks a turn it meant they would be wasting their anti infantry capability against mech heavy lists as they were relegated to a AT duty, not to mention getting in dangerously close for that 9" melta range. A good example of having strong AT (haywire and heatlances) but not enough platforms and not enough range.

Which brings me onto another point. When you look at your list ask yourself how much of your AT will still be around if you go second with no night fight against an army like IG or Tau. My list might have 10 lances and 11 blasters, but half of those lances might be dead first turn, or only be able to snap fire. Five of those blasters (warriors) will most likely not be in range. Finally the 6 blaster on the reavers will not be on the board until turn 2 at the earliest (as I run them in reserve). So in reality that list, if it goes first, will have 10 lances in range on the first turn, and only 4-6 lances if it goes second.

Does that fit your game plan, and what you want your AT to be able to achieve on that first turn? In my case it does as my goal is to be able to take out two transports against an all mech list before my reavers come in on turn 2. If my goal was something more lofty like reliably taking out 2-3 AV12 targets in my first turn then I wouldn't have enough AT. So work out what your expectations are and plan accordingly.

As for Venoms/Raiders, it depends what you want. I prefer larger squads of warriors as it means I get a splinter cannon and can sit them in cover outside their raider when need be. I also prefer raiders because I like my anti tank on vehicles and my anti infantry on models that can benefit from pain tokens. Finally like I mentioned before I like the range AT advantage dark lances give me. That being said venoms are dirt cheap and super effective, caveat being if 36" splinter fire is what your list needs.

Hope that helps. Smile

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 30 2013, 16:22

There seems to be one very glaring ommission here so I'm going to say it very slowly.

V o i d . R a v e n .

Nothing else in our lists can touch it for anti tank (at least, not without using forgeworld stuff, I'm not sure how good the reaper actually is)

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Niiai
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 30 2013, 16:49

The burning eye while I certainly agree that it is nice with the voidraven (and I would love to make a WWP/foot list with eldar allies on jet-bikes to grab objectives and eldar flyers) I do not know if it is better.

S9 might not be that much better vs AV11.
It only fires 2 shots (and the bomb)
It shows up earliest turn 2, that messes with the saturation
It is a flyer and while mobile does have to move around a lot
It costs more then other options while perhaps adding less AT.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 30 2013, 17:00

The ravager is more point efficient than the void raven and against most targets, the 3 shots at S8 are equal (or better) to the 2 at S9.

Combined with the fact that the ravager is easier to hide, is shooting turn 1 and is more flexible in what it can shoot....

Ravager - 3 shots, 2 hits...
AV10 - 1.6 glance or better
AV11 - 1.3 glance or better
Av12+ - 1 glance or better

Void Raven - 2 shots, 1.3 hits...
AV10 - 1.3 glance or better
AV11 - 1.1 glance or better
Av12+ - 0.86 glance or better

I know maths is not the be all and end all but as an exercise, the void raven falls short vs the ravager in damage rate AND costs more AND is more limited

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 30 2013, 17:03

The void raven is a fantastic AA/AT platform. However, I still personally prefer the ravager. The reason being the void raven is not on the board turn 1, and may not be on the board turn 2 or turn 3 (depending how bad your reserve rolls are). This combined with it's movement restrictions (18" minimum move and 90degree turns) means it may miss another turn if your opponent it is clever with his movement. It doesn't draw fire away from my raiders on turn 1, the way ravagers do. Finally a ravager doesn't care about anything with skyfire, a void-raven does, the voidraven is only more survivable than a ravager if you assume your opponent will always need 6s to hit it, and most lists these days pack some form of AA.

That being said the voidraven is a great options for other reasons, notably it's our best native AA unit.

At least that's how I see it.

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Archon Farath Mure
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 30 2013, 17:06

I prefer the Ravager to the Voidraven at the moment because it has a model. Razz

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 30 2013, 21:42

@Archon Farath Mure wrote:
I prefer the Ravager to the Voidraven at the moment because it has a model. Razz

Agreed.

I'd add into this argument though that at the moment, the void raven is more durable, if only because there aren't many sky fire weapons (at least, not in the club I play at) so it only gets hit on a 6.

I'm going to get on my high horse about mathammer now I'm afraid, so please forgive me, but 0.86 glancing hits is irrelevant in the context of dice rolling, in a single turn a void raven can penetrate once, twice or not at all, not 0.86 times. Chance of a void raven penetrating at AV 12 is two thirds (to hit) multiplied by one half (to penetrate) so it's penetrating once every three shots. The dark lance on a ravager still hits two thirds of the time, and penetrates one third of the time, so penetrates twice in 9 shots. So it takes the ravager three turns to get two penetrating hits. So in those same three turns, the void raven has shot six times, therefore also gets two penetrating hits. However, the void raven can also drop its mine on an alternative target (I'd personally recommend a big tank, so that it has a decent chance of hitting the mark) and is far harder to damage in return.

Ultimately it's each to their own, I don't think I'd ever want to leave my ravagers at home, but then I've got one with dark lances and one with disintegrator cannons and I like the variety of not taking three of exactly the same thing in my heavy support section.

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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 30 2013, 22:05

I'm definatly a Ravager fan over Void Raven. More likely to hit (thanks to firing more shots), starting on the board (instead of reserves where the void raven can simply not come in for mutiple turns of the game and isn't available to hit the enemy on turn 1), less able to be played around (as mush mentioned the flyer's movement flaws can easily be exploited), and cheaper by a fairly significant amount? No contest for me.

Other then the Ravager I tend to be a fan of haywire wyches and Blasters same as everyone else his mentioned.
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Niiai
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 31 2013, 08:26

On the debate void raven vs ravager the raven might actualy live though the game, something the ravager usualy does not do. Of course that just means that your other mech dies faster. ^_^
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Andalit
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 31 2013, 10:13

@Mushkilla wrote:
Currently my list has 11 blasters and 10 dark lances:

1 archon with blaster
4 warriors squads with blasters
2 reaver squads with three blasters each
4 raiders with dark lances
2 ravagers with three dark lances each

So far it's been more than enough AT even against mech lists. Smile

Just a quick side note here Smile

How many points is in that list, Mush?
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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 31 2013, 10:19

It's basically the list he uses in his most recent battle report and it's listed at 1500 points.
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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 31 2013, 10:19

I think he plays 1500pts

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Andalit
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 31 2013, 10:22

Okay, thx Smile

Looks awesome Very Happy
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 31 2013, 10:40

My list is 1500pts. The latest report is in my signature and includes the full list if your interested. Wink

Back on topic it's interesting how the introduction of Hull Points and the changes to glancing hits have affected how our AT functions and how much AT we need (both lances and haywire have become more effective, but haywire has lost its ability to stun-lock). It's nice knowing that if you glance/pen something three times it's dead (those endless glances of 5th edition were a real pain).

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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 31 2013, 10:54

Beasts and Razorwing Jets for me!

I use bit different methods to get anti tank. I like the duality of beast pack (khymeras and flocks) and the jet. There usually is not good AV targets for them all the time. So they perform quite good in both roles. In my experience the differnce between S9 nd S8 lances is not enough to justify the loss of free missiles. If they were S8 and S7 it would be totally different matter. S6 blast takes care of many T3 swarms that normally justs eats splinter.

I also have traditional AT in the for of blaster warriors, lanceborn and a ravager as well as haywire girls. But my raiders are armed with dissies for duality again.

But the most important thin is as mentioned before that you spread your AT on many different units. It doesn't matter if you have 3 ravagers or 3 bombers if it's the only AT you got.

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Niiai
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 31 2013, 11:17

Vasara am I to understand that you use the beasts as anti tank?

But you also run blaster warriors, lance born, a ravager and haywire wytches? Is that all in the same list?

Also, have anybody tryed using the bastion? It seems to me to be an OK place to use some lanceborn's and also manning a quad gun. The heavy bolsters would also be nice, although not so good vs AT.
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Vasara
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 31 2013, 11:26

@Niiai wrote:
Vasara am I to understand that you use the beasts as anti tank?

But you also run blaster warriors, lance born, a ravager and haywire wytches? Is that all in the same list?

Also, have anybody tryed using the bastion? It seems to me to be an OK place to use some lanceborn's and also manning a quad gun. The heavy bolsters would also be nice, although not so good vs AT.

All in the same.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: How do you get anti tank?   How do you get anti tank? I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 31 2013, 18:15

beasts are decent at hunting light AT with S4 and rending attacks from the birds. Remember also all close combat attacks are made against rear armor unless its a dreadnaught.

Personally my AT comes from lances and blasters. Mix in some close combat haywire goodness or a harlie rending troupe, and you got yourself enough AT to get around. Remember also most of your 6th ed list have either alittle bit of armor or have completely left their tanks at home, so you need less AT overall than 5th. But it still all in your meta, and even with me saying this, I still see a ton of armor across the board all the time

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