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 Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support

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Plastikente
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PostSubject: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 27 2013, 23:51

I'm back with the next one. As always, please comment to tell me if you agree, disagree, or if you think I've missed anything.

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Plastikente’s Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 – Heavy Support [6th Ed]

HEAVY SUPPORT
Unsurprisingly, this is where the real heavy hitters in the army list can be found, including several of the Dark Eldar’s options for taking out vehicles. Pretty much every unit in this area of the Force Org chart is exceptional, and you can’t go far wrong by maxing out on Heavy Support choices in almost any list you build.

RAVAGER
Strengths: Manoeuvrability of a fast skimmer. Deadly armament. Can fire all guns at cruising speed.
Weaknesses: Light armour.
Upgrades:

  • Disintegrators. You can swap your Dark Lance armament for these at no cost. DL Ravagers are more common because DE armies usually need to maximise the anti-vehicle fire they can bring, but if you have that covered, a disintegrator Ravager absolutely annihilates armoured infantry.
  • Night Shields. These can be useful for extending the life of a Ravager. They’re not much use against decent heavy weapons, which outrange you even after knocking off 6”, but they are great for reducing your exposure to mid-range weapons like plasma guns.
  • Flicker Field. Of limited use, because you can get a 5+ jink save just by moving. For the paranoid though, the FF does offer a couple of advantages:

    1. Still works before you’ve moved (like if the enemy gets the first turn).
    2. Still works against weapons which ignore cover, and in assault.

    Nonetheless, the FF doesn’t offer much that you can’t get by careful placement and keeping moving.
  • Everything else. Other vehicle upgrades were covered in Part 2 (Core Units). While they have their uses, they all required that you get close to the enemy to get an effect, and a Ravager doesn’t want to be anywhere near the enemy.

How to use: Fly around at max range, shooting the enemy to bits. Ravagers are the most cost-effective way for us to bring heavy weapons to the table; they have a great manoeuvrability and good BS. This will make your Ravager a prime target for your opponent. Unlike our flyers, the Ravager can bring its guns to bear from turn one, and you will generally want to make use of that to deploy them on the table and try to hit your enemy first. Make maximum use of cover to try to mitigate your fragility, and keep moving to get your jink save. Night fighting can really help in this area. Don’t waste points on upgrades that you are very unlikely to use – only Night Shields are likely to give you a decent payback, and even they are far from essential as your front and side armour is bolter-proof (unlike Raiders). Suggested build: Ravager w/ Night Shields [115].

TALOS PAIN ENGINE
Strengths: Tough, scary monstrous creature.
Weaknesses: Slow, no invulnerable save.
Upgrades:

  • Twin-linked Liquifier Gun. Liquifier Guns are generally awesome, with a 50% chance of melting straight through power armour every time they fire. Add the ability to re-roll failed wounds, and they become truly terrifying to the enemy.
  • Ichor Injector. Gives your attacks a chance of inflicting instant death. Useful if you want to hunt characters in close combat, but not so effective against other monstrous creatures as it is toughness-based.
  • Chain Flails. Your average number of attacks with chain flails rises to 4.47, from 3.5 usually. Also, the random distribution gets skewed to the right, so high numbers are more likely than those frustrating 1s and 2s. Can be worthwhile for an assault-Talos, if you have the points to spare.
  • Extra CCW. Costs 5 points more than the chain flails, and increases your average number of attacks to 4.5, although these are on an even spread between 2 and 7. This upgrade is pointless if you have taken the TL liquefier – as you exchange a CCW to get that then the extra just brings you back to 1 in total and doesn’t give you an extra attack.
  • Stinger Pod. Gives a slightly better effect against infantry than the bog-standard TL splinter cannon. Useful, but hardly essential.
  • Twin-linked Haywire Blaster. Will probably cause 1 glancing hit per turn on enemy vehicles. Not that impressive – at long range you’ll get more effect from just shooting infantry with the splinter cannon, but at short range the Heat Lance is much more effective.
  • Twin-linked Heat Lance. Useful if you want to go hunting vehicles with your Talos. The main threat will actually come from an assault, but this is useful for softening the victim as you approach. And if you are lucky enough to pop a transport with it in the shooting phase, then you are allowed to charge the occupants.

How to use: The Talos is a great psychological weapon. Opposing players seem to be inordinately scared of what they can do, and will therefore devote a lot of firepower to trying to take them out, and will often avoid moving units or vehicles too close. This effect will also apply to a WWP if you still have a Talos in reserve – only a foolhardy foe will get too close if he knows that there is a TL Heat Lance and/or Liquifier gun just needing a 3+ to appear. The best use of a Talos is therefore for area denial. It is always worth hugging terrain, as you have move through cover and without an invulnerable save you are always vulnerable to high strength, AP3 shots. Suggested build: Talos w/ Twin-Linked Liquifier [105]. If you want to be able to threaten vehicles at range, add a TL Heat Lance.

CRONOS PARASITE ENGINE
Strengths: Pain token multiplier, high toughness, access to AP3 weapons.
Weaknesses: Short range, slow, no invulnerable save, not great in assault.
Upgrades:

  • Spirit Syphon. Not actually an upgrade – you get this included in the cost of the Cronos, but it’s worth discussing specifically. This is a flamer that was practically designed to melt Space Marines. And every time you get a kill with it, you can give a pain token to a nearby friendly unit. This disadvantage is, you need to get *really* close to use it, and the Cronos isn’t great in an assault.
  • Spirit Probe. Allows the Cronos to dish out pain tokens if it gets a kill in assault. Thing is, the Cronos isn’t that great in an assault, so you probably want to avoid getting in the position where this upgrade will benefit you.
  • Spirit Vortex. Lower strength than the Spirit Syphon, but a much more useful range (although still not that long). A significant points investment, but worth it.

How to use: The Cronos is unusual compared to the other Heavy Support slots, because unlike the rest, it’s not incredibly killy. It can act as a real force multiplier though, and shouldn’t be written off. In an assault it’s not terrible, but certainly nothing compared to a Talos, and its low number of attacks makes it liable to get tarpitted. If you haven’t paid for a Spirit Probe, you can’t then make use of the Cronos’ special abilities. It is always worth buying a Spirit Vortex for a Cronos because it allows you to keep the enemy at arm’s length. The lower strength does make it harder to kill SMurfs, but you still burn straight through power armour and you only need to get one kill to benefit.
To make use of the Cronos, you need to keep other unit nearby to benefit from the tokens he dishes out. As he is so slow, this requires some thought at the list building stage. One option is to deploy via WWP, allowing you to arrive up-table and near the action. Alternatively, if you love MCs (or are running a coven-themed list), a Cronos paired with 2 Talos makes a very imposing centre-field. These units can benefit particularly from FnP as their lack of invulnerable save makes them a prime target for krak missiles. Obviously, if you go down that route then you will need to find your ranged anti-tank elsewhere (Blasterborn anyone?). Suggested build: Cronos w/ Spirit Vortex [100].

RAZORWING JETFIGHTER
Strengths: Flyer, nasty anti-infantry missiles, can Deep Strike.
Weaknesses: Paper-thin armour.
Upgrades:

  • Disintegrators. For no cost, you can swap your Dark Lances for these. These fit better with the aircraft’s other weapons, which are suited for an anti-infantry role. Nevertheless, many players prefer to keep the DLs for the flexibility to take on vehicles, and particularly enemy fliers.
  • Splinter Cannon. Next to pointless – as you can only fire 4 weapons per turn, you won’t use it at all until you have fired off all your missiles. This will be Turn 4 at the earliest, and if you don’t have to fly off the table that turn, you will most likely have to do so the next turn.
  • Missiles. All of the missiles available to the Razorwing are Large Blasts. I have mathhammered the chances of getting a wound on each individual model caught by the blast:
    Weapon vs MEQ vs TEQ vs GEQ vs MC
    Monoscythe0.2780.1390.8330.111
    Necrotoxin0.2780.1390.8330.278
    Shatterfield0.3240.1620.6480.250
    As can be seen, Necrotoxin doesn’t increase kill rates against anything that doesn’t have a very high Toughness to start with (although it is pinning). The Shatterfield gives you a slightly better kill rate against MEQ and TEQ, but AP- makes you worse off against lightly armoured units.
    All told, the free Monoscythe missile is pretty effective anyway, so it is rarely worth investing more points in a unit which is already expensive in order to get a slight increase in missile kills.
  • Night Shield. Very useful. Because your armour is so thin, even Bolters have a chance of glancing you, and the number of shots mean that they’ll get a few hits even snap-firing. Night shields are great for reducing your exposure to small arms fire, and particularly from rapid fire.
  • Flicker Field. Invaluable. Unlike skimmers, Flyers don’t get jink for moving, if they want it, their shooting next turn is downgraded to snap shots only (and therefore missiles can’t be fired). With a Flicker Field, you never have to evade.

How to use: Zoom around the table, annihilating troops with your missiles. If you have stuck with Dark Lances, you can always switch target if required to take on some armour or other flyers. The limits of Flyer movement require a bit of thought to get the most out of your assets. If the enemy already has flyers on the table when you arrive, Deep Strike is a great option to stick you in their rear fire arcs where you can have a go at their weak rear armour and they can’t manoeuvre to shoot back at you. Beware though, your own armour is pitifully thin, so you will want to take out anything with skyfire and/or intercept with other units before your flyer turns up. Even a lowly Guardsman can expect to get 1.5 penetrating hits on you with a Quad Gun (if you don’t evade/have a Flicker Field). Suggested build: Razorwing w/ Night Shields, Flicker Field [165].

VOIDRAVEN BOMBER
Strengths: Flyer, killer anti-tank gun, can deep-strike
Weaknesses: Light armour, gets expensive if you want missiles.
Upgrades:

  • The Voidraven has access to all the same missiles as the Razorwing, and also Implosion Missiles:
    Weapon vs MEQ vs TEQ vs GEQ vs MC
    Implosion0.8330.5560.8330.500
    The great thing about implosion missiles is that they cause instant death (following a characteristic check – see the codex, p.47). This could make them great against multi-wound armoured opponents. The downside is, you can still take cover or invulnerable saves against them, so it’s not that hard to dodge their effects.
    The problem with taking missiles of any sort on the Voidraven is that you have to pay extra for them (a lot extra, in the case of implosion missiles). The missiles are all anti-infantry, whilst your main armament is the best long-range anti-vehicle weapon we have access to. Therefore, to get the most cost-effectiveness out of your Voidraven you should avoid missiles altogether and just concentrate your Void Lances on enemy armour and flyers.
  • Night Shield. See the comment for the Razorwing Jetfighter. The big difference is, the Voidraven doesn’t need to worry about Bolters in front or to the sides, so this becomes less of a worthwhile investment.
  • Flicker Field. See the comment for the Razorwing Jetfighter - it applies to the Voidraven in exactly the same way.

How to use: Ironically, the Voidraven “Bomber” plays much more like a dedicated air combat plane which can target ground armour in a pinch whereas the Razorwing “Jetfighter” is optimised as an anti-infantry ground attack craft. How to use? Fly around the table, targeting enemy armour. If he has any flyers, the Deep Strike trick will again pay dividends. If you happen to fly over an enemy vehicle, the Void Mine has a reasonable chance of hitting it, but your Void Lances are your most flexible and reliable weapon on this flyer. Suggested build: Voidraven w/ Flicker Field [155].

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 28 2013, 02:43

one thing I would mention is that the shatterfield (and sometimes the mono) missles can be uses against light vehicles quite effectively. So the missles don't have to just be AI. although AI is usually the best roll for them

I am still able to keep the voidraven bomber cheap-ish by only adding 2 missles (shattershard) and a flicker field. for 175 points. Having the S7 missles gives you the option for AI or AT along with the awesome AT lances.
this is only 10 points more then your Razorwing sugestion, but IMO this VB build is more effective and more survivable.
I was skeptical about the VB at first, but I have been using more and more oftain. It's been amazing for me.

one thing I oftain do with the flyers is target a vehicles with the lances and fire the missles at the vehicle as well if infintry are bunched to 1 or more of the vehicles sides and places the lrg blast covering as much of the squad as I can (keeping the center of the blast on a part of the vehicles of course). you may not hit as many of the infantry as you like, but sometimes it's worth it.

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 28 2013, 03:51

On the night shields for the ravagers, despite the 48" range of most heavy weapons, night shields plus the 12" move on the Ravager mean you can often deploy out of range of the enemy and get first strike in your turn

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 28 2013, 13:25

Great stuff as usual!

Feedback:

RAVAGER

An important aspect of the ravager is that it draws fire away from your raiders, and therefore your troops. This is a big deal in my experience having run lists without ravagers you really feel the pinch early on.

TALOS PAIN ENGINE

Might be worth mentioning that smash attacks is a big deal for talos as it lets it kill characters more easily (instant death) and take out transports more reliably (it also makes the injector pretty unappealing as an upgrade).

Hammer of wrath also increases the talos' reliability at taking out tanks (as it's an automatic S7 hit). When charging into cover the talos strikes last this can be problematic, but hammer of wrath happens at I10. If you can get the talos into base contact with only one model you can often "snipe" that model with the S7 hammer of wrath hit, use this to try and take out squad leaders that can hurt you (powerfist, powersword, melta bombs etc), you have a 14% chance of taking out a MEQ squad leader and a 28% chance of taking out a GEQ leader with this attack (those percentages include the 4+ look out sir). But remember as the talos is the "initial charger" he has to take the shortest possible root to the unit so measuring things out in your movement phase will help you get the most out of this.

Might be worth mentioning that the splinter cannon is a great weapon for getting pain tokens onto the talos, with its reliable damage output and range it can be used to finish off depleted squads. That pain token is a big deal.

Another big change in 6th is that monstrous creature benefit from area terrain, this makes keeping talos alive a lot easier.

Finally use and abuse that 12" charge range, the talos is almost immune to overwatch. Sit in cover shoot away with your splinter cannons and go for those long range charges at worst you don't make it, but if you do your opponent will be in a world of hurt.

I could go on, but mentioning some of the above might be useful to people wanting to get the most out of a deceptively complex unit.

RAZORWING JETFIGHTER & VOIDRAVEN BOMBER

When deepstriking vehicles don't change facing if they scatter.

Hope that helps. Smile

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Last edited by Mushkilla on Tue Jan 29 2013, 17:19; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 28 2013, 18:07

I would emphasize that the Ravager is one of the most efficient means of obtaining Dark Lances.

I think that the beginning statement that you can't go wrong with maxing out any of the Heavy choices because I really don't think the Cronos is worth it. The section on it was valid in 5th but with the change to FnP the amount of force buffing it provides has significantly diminished.
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 28 2013, 18:26

Great stuff as always.
1 note for the splinter cannon on the AI razorwing Jetfighter is that it works on flying Monstrous creatures and times when you don't want to risk blasts scattering into your own troops, aka nice against daemons

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 28 2013, 18:33

Also the splinter cannon isn't a bad option if you go for dark lances on your razorwing (as it gives you the option to fire one lance, the cannon, and two missiles when targeting infantry).

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 29 2013, 02:59

Hi

Can someone enlighten me how does our flyer deep strike? I dun seem to be able to find it in the books. Thanks
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 29 2013, 03:36

The deep strike thing may change when the Flyers supplement comes out - it might rewrite the statlines and army list entries for all the flyers, kind of like that demons supplement last year.
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 29 2013, 06:41

@Mickylevi wrote:
The deep strike thing may change when the Flyers supplement comes out - it might rewrite the statlines and army list entries for all the flyers, kind of like that demons supplement last year.

However until that comes out, what your saying is pure speculation. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 29 2013, 07:18

Hope they change the flyers to Fast Attack.
If our codex was made today it totaly would have been an FA slot selection.

But I know it wont happen, and unless they make them ALOT better I still wont put a flyer on the table in a competitive game, however if they boost other flyers I might be forced to make changed to my competitive lists...

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 29 2013, 07:35

@Darklight wrote:
Hope they change the flyers to Fast Attack.
If our codex was made today it totaly would have been an FA slot selection.

I don't think so, for Dark Eldar Flyers are about as heavy duty as we get (not open topped!), so they fit quite naturally in the heavy support section. The reason other armies have flyers in fast attack, is that they normally offer a fast element that those armies wouldn't have access to otherwise, not to mention other armies have big heavy duty tanks. It's not like are heavy support is crowded the choice is between ravagers and flyers (talos and cronos though good rarely enter the equation).

The only reason you want the flyers in fast attack, is because it's the slot you don't use. Damn I wish they were elite! Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 29 2013, 07:55

I disagree with Splinter Cannon on Razorwing being useless. If you field it two Disintegrator cannons, why not pay the extra ten points for it? The reason is this - after Razorwing's two devastating alpha strikes with two Dissies and two missiles, the next turn it is left with just two Disintegrators, 6 shots. It stops being a serious threat, so this is where the Splinter Cannon comes in.

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 29 2013, 07:56

They actually fit in FA aswell, but they would be made good in competitive play thats why i'd want them there Wink
Elite would be fine with me aswell... but imo they should be better if to be fit in to the heavy slot. But I survive quite fine without flyers.

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 29 2013, 07:57

@Siticus the Ancient wrote:
I disagree with Splinter Cannon on Razorwing being useless. If you field it two Disintegrator cannons, why not pay the extra ten points for it? The reason is this - after Razorwing's two devastating alpha strikes with two Dissies and two missiles, the next turn it is left with just two Disintegrators, 6 shots. It stops being a serious threat, so this is where the Splinter Cannon comes in.

Because we have enough Venoms, and you dont want to use one of the few solid AT slots we got to take out AI?

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 29 2013, 08:24

@Darklight wrote:
Because we have enough Venoms, and you dont want to use one of the few solid AT slots we got to take out AI?

But the razorwing is an anti infantry platform. So if your taking a razorwing your taking it for anti infantry. So you might as well say why take the razorwing in the first place? Rather than you shouldn't take the splinter cannon. If you want an AA/AT flyer take the voidraven, It's pretty nifty with it's deepstrike AV11 and voidlances. Who know's maybe when the model comes out the voidlances will be on a nice 180degree turret. Very Happy

On another note.

RETROFIRE JETS?

Ravagers are the one unit I would consider taking retrofire jets on if you have the points to spare. Against some armies you don't have the option of starting ravagers on the board (no night fight, going second, facing a gun line army that doesn't care about night shields). The retrofire jets are more advantageous than regular reserve in this case as deep-strike can easily give you a side/rear armour shot against vehicles when you come in. I saw this the other day at my club when a DE player landed his Ravager within 12" of a hammer head, he got side armour and ignored the disruption pod, taking it out. It was pure style. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 29 2013, 08:57

@huymix wrote:
I think that the beginning statement that you can't go wrong with maxing out any of the Heavy choices because I really don't think the Cronos is worth it. The section on it was valid in 5th but with the change to FnP the amount of force buffing it provides has significantly diminished.

I'd disagree. Pain tokens are still an essential part of our gameplay and the Cronos is an excellent way of acquiring and distributing them.

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Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support YhBv3Wk
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 29 2013, 10:20

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Darklight wrote:
Because we have enough Venoms, and you dont want to use one of the few solid AT slots we got to take out AI?

But the razorwing is an anti infantry platform. So if your taking a razorwing your taking it for anti infantry. So you might as well say why take the razorwing in the first place? Rather than you shouldn't take the splinter cannon. I

Well yes :p
Maby they will change the flyers for the better now with the new book and I can change my opinion on them

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 29 2013, 14:57

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@huymix wrote:
I think that the beginning statement that you can't go wrong with maxing out any of the Heavy choices because I really don't think the Cronos is worth it. The section on it was valid in 5th but with the change to FnP the amount of force buffing it provides has significantly diminished.

I'd disagree. Pain tokens are still an essential part of our gameplay and the Cronos is an excellent way of acquiring and distributing them.


That's where I disagree. I don't think the Cronos is an excellent way of acquiring pain tokens. It certainly is a way, but not terribly points efficient which is what I'm saying. A definitely since the reduction of FnP from 5th to 6th the benefit has been reduced.

Would you be willing to run a list with 2 or 3 Cronos? I certainly would not and I don't see many lists on this forum that run that many or any. I think at max, 1 Cronos could (depending on your local meta) be worth it.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 29 2013, 15:16

@huymix wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@huymix wrote:
I think that the beginning statement that you can't go wrong with maxing out any of the Heavy choices because I really don't think the Cronos is worth it. The section on it was valid in 5th but with the change to FnP the amount of force buffing it provides has significantly diminished.

I'd disagree. Pain tokens are still an essential part of our gameplay and the Cronos is an excellent way of acquiring and distributing them.


That's where I disagree. I don't think the Cronos is an excellent way of acquiring pain tokens. It certainly is a way, but not terribly points efficient which is what I'm saying. A definitely since the reduction of FnP from 5th to 6th the benefit has been reduced.

Would you be willing to run a list with 2 or 3 Cronos? I certainly would not and I don't see many lists on this forum that run that many or any. I think at max, 1 Cronos could (depending on your local meta) be worth it.

I think you've misunderstood what Plastikente has written. He's not suggesting maxing out on Cronos' (Croni?) and neither am I. He's saying that you can max out on Heavy Support in pretty much any list. I doubt anyone takes 3 Croni but 1 is useful, particularly in a WWP list or where you also have a Talos (or 2).

I'd also argue that it is a very point efficient unit for acquiring pain tokens. Equipped with a vortex it is 100 points and can fairly easily acquire 2 pain tokens per turn if used properly. What other unit in our codex is likely to do that?

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Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support YhBv3Wk
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Plastikente
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 29 2013, 17:17

Good to see this has caused plenty of discussion, as usual.

I take the point about Razorwing missiles having a chance against light vehicles too, but I don't think this is a very effective use of them. I will revise my statement on the splinter cannon though.

As always, Mushkilla's points are all spot on, so they'll get incorporated in the final draft.

As has been suggested, my opening comment on maxing out Heavy Support was not meant to advise people to take 3 Cronos (or 3 of anything, in fact). If people take the time to read the rest of the article I'm sure they won't come away thinking that that would be a good idea.

Keep the feedback coming Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 29 2013, 19:43

@Plastikente wrote:
If people take the time to read the rest of the article I'm sure they won't come away thinking that that would be a good idea.

Keep the feedback coming Smile

Nice dig, the internet is equal parts nitpicky and sarcastic.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 29 2013, 19:54

@huymix wrote:
Nice dig, the internet is equal parts nitpicky and sarcastic.

Keep it civil. Thanks. - Mush

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 29 2013, 20:12

I was mostly talking about the shatterfield missiles (for the wing or the bomber) be pretty good against light armour. That is of course the missiles secondary roll, but it does come in handy on occasion.

I am glad that you are doing this articles.
Maybe something on synergy throughout the army later ;-)
You know because these tactic arrivals haven't been time consuming enough. Haha

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 30 2013, 13:59

Hello I am new here, I usually hang out at Dakkadakka. I decided to throw in my two cents, I was particularly drawn to the discussion of the ravager. As stated the ravager dies quite fast, but if you do not have it your transports die even faster.

DE, especial in 6th edition seems to be about hitting them hard before they can hit us to hard back because all our mech explodes very fast with AP2 and open topped adding +2 to the damage chart and hitting all in the transports for S4 damage. The ravagers are so amassing because they pack a mean punch and they do not have passengers to worry about. Dark Eldar lists really need to fit together in a much more important way then other armies list need to do. Meaning if you go transports you really want a lot of cheap planes so he cannot kill them all in one turn. This does pose a conundrum with the heavy support since it very often are 3 ravagers or not.

It would seem that the "heavy support builds" fit 3 different themed lists:

3 Ravagers as discussed in a list that uses a lott of transports.
A mix of Chronos and Talos engines coming out of a WWP, usually with grotesque WWP delivery and little of no transports.
A big ground force that do not use transports but has a mean quad gun and air support.

Of course you could do any combination of heavy support choices in your army, and there are more ways to play DE then the 3 themed once I suggested. But if you are trying to maximise cheap transports and ravagers to saturate with a lot of similar targets a valid choice could be to throw some war-walkers with scatter lasers into the mix by way of Eldar allies. Eldar allies or eldar corsairs could also work with the air support option if you use forge world.

These are my thoughts on the subject, I would love to see what the experts on this forum thinks. :-)


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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 5 - Heavy Support I_icon_minitime

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