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 BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts

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Mushkilla
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Mushkilla

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BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts Empty
PostSubject: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 25 2013, 16:09

Avast reader! Below pirates clash in battle for hidden loot n' slaves. Who will be victorious and claim the spoils of this 'er bountiful planet? The Red Corsairs or the Black Buzzards? Read on at ye own peril!

The Armies:

Black Buzzards (DE)

HQ
Archon, blaster, venom blade, shadow field (a.k.a The Pirate Captain)

TROOPS
7 Warriors, blaster
Raider
10 Warriors, blaster, splinter cannon
Raider
10 Warriors, blaster, splinter cannon
Raider
10 Warriors, blaster, splinter cannon
Raider

FAST ATTACK
9 Reavers, 3 blasters, arena champion, venom blade
9 Reavers, 3 blasters, arena champion, venom blade

HEAVY SUPPORT
Ravager
Ravager

Chaos Triple Drake (CSM)

HQ
Huron Black Heart

TROOPS
19 Chaos marines, 2 plasma guns, gift of mutation, power sword
10 Cultists, flamer
10 Cultists, flamer
10 Cultists, flamer

FAST ATTACK
Helldrake, flamer
Helldrake, flamer
Helldrake, flamer

HEAVY
7 Havocs, 4 autocannons
7 Havocs, 4 autocannons
Obliterator

Mission: Crusade (3 objectives)
Deployment: Dawn of War
Night Fight on first turn: No
First Turn: CSM
Warlord Trait DE: Strategic Genius (re-roll reserves)
Warlord Trait DA: Master of Deception (D3 units infiltrate, he rolled a 2)
Combat Drugs: Grave Lotus (+1S)

Objectives
My opponent got to deploy two objectives, he set up one in the back field and one in the centre (this telegraphed where he was going to deploy his chaos marines). I set up my objective in the bottom right ruin.

Deployment:
BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts Depr
The chaos marine champion rolled Mechanoid (+1 to his armour save) for his gift of mutation. My opponent kept three cultist units in reserve. One havoc squad deployed in a building on the right. The obliterator deployed near some silos on the right. The other havoc squads and the horde of space marines infiltrated. Not having much that could threaten my reavers on the first turn I decided to deploy my entire army to try and get the most out of my numbers advantage before the helldrakes came in. I deployed three warriors squads in the large ruins (making sure their splinter cannons were in range of the havocs). I deployed the reavers behind the ruin so they would benefit from a 4+ cover save and deployed the ravager with its nose pointing out of the ruin to draw the autocannon fire. On the left I deployed a ravager behind a ruin, one raider in a ruins and the other raiders behind, the raider on the far left containing the Archon and his squad. Out of sight behind all the ravagers I deployed a the second squad of reavers.

Infiltrate:
BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts Infiltratem
The chaos marine infiltrated onto the central objective and the squad of havocs infiltrated onto one of the oil silos (getting a height advantage).

Turn 1 (CSM):
BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts Csturn1
"Impressive Huron, your Parrot has talent!" - Archon of the Black Buzzards after witnessing the Hamadrya impressive psychic display.

The havocs on the far right fired into the ravager on the right, inflicting two penetrating hit and a glance hit, thankfully the 4+ cover from being behind the ruins meant that only the glancing hit got through. The obliterator fired his lascannon at one of the raiders destroying it (first blood to chaos!). This meant that the havocs could see the front of the Archon's raider, though it would get a 3+ cover save against their shots (behind ruins 4+ and +1 for an extreme angle). My opponent still decided to shoot the Archon's raider with the havocs as he didn't see much use in taking out another empty raider. Thankfully I made all the 3+ saves. Huron had rolled perfect timing for his psychic power, he cast it and then his marines targeted the nearest warrior squad (as none of his marines were in range of the reavers). Killing the whole squad!

Turn 1 (DE):
BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts Deturn1
"X marks the spot!" - Archon of the Black Buzzards orders the attack on Huron's men.

The raiders and ravagers all fired into Hurons squad killing four marines. Both warrior squad opened fire killing another four. Finally the two reaver squads bladevanes Huron's squad killing seven between them. The Archon's raider moved forward, his squad disembarked behind the wall. He stayed aboard the raider and took out the obliterator with his blaster. The squad fired at Huron's marines taking out a marine and landing a blaster hit on Huron who managed to look out sir it onto the near by plasma marine killing him.

Turn 2 (CSM):
BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts Csturn2
Two helldrakes and a squad of cultists arrived from reserve. The helldrake on the left used vector strike on the reavers killing one. The helldrake then proceeded to flame the warriors squad killing four, soulblaze went out before doing any damage, and the warriors passed their leadership test. The helldrake on the right used vector strike on the reavers killing one, and then flaming the warriors in the right corner killing five, soulblaze went out before doing any damage, and the warriors passed their leadership test. The havocs on the left fired into the Archon's raider only managing to glance it! The havocs on the right fired into the into the reavers killing two. The cultist fired at the reavers killing one. Huron rolled Iron Arm for his power and successfully cast it (getting +2T, +2S and eternal warrior, how handy). However his squad rolled a 2 and a 1 for their difficult terrain test so Huron couldn't get his flamer within range of the reavers, he tried to charge but didn't make it, though overwatch failed to hurt him.

Turn 2 (DE):
BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts Deturn2
"All the Tyrant's horses and all the Tyrant's men couldn't put Horrible Huron back together again!" - Archon of the Black Buzzards

One of the raiders moved flat out towards the warriors on the right. The other raider moved flat out towards the warrior on the left (on the off chance they survive the assault I was planning). Both warrior squads spread out and fired into Huron's squad killing the two marines and inflicting two wounds on Huron. The Archon's raider moved forward as he took aim at Huron he missed! But because of BS7 he got to re-roll and hit on a 5+. He hit! He wounded! He killed! Huron was no more! The Archon's raider fired at the helldrake harmlessly. The ravager moved flat out behind the helldrakes. The blaster warrior and the reavers on the left fired into the havocs, killing three. The warriors charged first (having not fired their splinter rifles), the havocs fired overwatch killing one warrior. The reavers declared a multiple charge, with the havocs as their primary target and the cultist as the secondary. Making it into combat with both, but loosing one model to the flamer on overwatch. Impact hits killed two cultists. The reavers fighting the cultist lost one of their number but struck back killing four cultists (if one model charges through cover the whole unit strikes at I1). The havocs allocated four of their attacks against the warriors but fail to kill any. The reavers and warriors attacked back but their efforts were fruitless. The Dark Eldar wining combat by five, the cultists rolled snake eyes and held! The Havocs however fled. The warriors who were only engaged with the Havocs sweeping advanced and cut them down (man my warriors kick ass in assault!). The warriors consolidate towards the raider. On the right the reavers fired at the havocs killing three, the reavers then charged, overwatch failing to kill any. Hammer of wrath took out a havoc. The havocs struck first but didn't manage to kill any of the reavers. The reavers struck back but the havocs made all their saves.

Turn 3 (CSM):
BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts Csturn3
The cultists came in from reserve and used their run move to secure their home objective. The last helldrake came in, vector striking the raider near the two warriors on the top left, destroying it, thankfully the explosion didn't kill the warriors. The helldrake wasn't done though, and unleashed its bale fire incinerating the two warriors. The bottom right helldrake vector striked one of the warrior squads killing three, and then killing a further four with his flamer. The last helldrake killed four. One of the squads ran, but didn't make it off the board, soublaze finished them off though. Thankfully soulblaze went out on the surviving squad (both helldrakes used their daemon forge ability this turn). The reavers in the top left corner cut down the cultists before they could strike earning them their first pain token. In the top right corner the reavers killed two havocs, the surviving havoc breaks and is cut down, earning them their first pain token.

Turn 3 (DE):
BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts Deturn3
The surviving warriors embarked on the raider which then moved flat out towards the central objective. The Archon's raider moved 12" to get behind the helldrake on the left (he could only snap fire anyway), however both his blaster and the raiders dark lance missed. The ravagers manoeuvred behind the same Drake and fired into it's rear armour but again all the shots missed. The left reaver squad moved up to the cultist squad on the left and fired at them, killing two. They then charged through overwatch unscathed, hammer of wrath killing three cultists. The cult leader challenged the arena champion, the champion evaded his blows and struck back eviscerating the arch cultist. The cultists killed a reaver, the reavers fought back slaughtering all the cultists and earning them another pain token. The right reaver squad moved up to the cultist squad on the right and fired at them, killing two. They then charged through overwatch unscathed, hammer of wrath killing five of the cultists including the champion. The cultists didn't manage to hurt the reavers and were promptly cut down, earning the reavers their second pain token. Both reaver squads used their consolidated move to spread out as much as possible to avoid the helldrakes.

Turn 4 (CSM):
BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts Csturn4
The helldrake in the bottom right corner flew off. The central helldrake did a 90 degree turn and fired on the reavers killing one, soulblaze didn't kill any reavers but remained in play. The last helldrake vector striked the raider containing the warriors destroying it, all of the warriors survived the explosion, however they were promptly incinerated by the bale flamer.

Turn 4 (DE):
BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts Deturn4
"Don't stop here this be Drake Country!" - Archon of the Black Buzzards to the steersmen of his raider (he may or may not have been high on H!pex at the time)

The Archon was the only difference between victory and a draw (line breaker, slay the warlord vs first blood). So his raider moves flat out to the board edge to prevent it from getting vector striked by oncoming helldrakes (36" move, no space to place the drake behind the raider, they can't fly off the board on the turn they come in). The ravagers manoeuvred behind one of the drakes getting a single penetrating hit that took out the helldrakes bale flamer! The Drake recovered the hull point thanks to "it will not die". Both reaver squads spread out preventing the helldrake with a bale flamer from turning left, it's minimum move is 18" and it can only turn 90 degrees. There were no possible legal moves it could make in its left arc, so it could either turn right, fly straight off the board or enter hover mode. With next turn potentially being the last entering hover mode seems like the only option. The reavers snapfired into the helldrakes side armour but failed to hurt it. Soul blaze on the reavers went out harmlessly.

Turn 5 (CSM):
BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts Csturn5
Night fight. The helldrake in reserve came on using it's vector strike on the reavers, but didn't kill any (go FNP and T4), he then flames them killing one. The helldrake without a weapon flew off vector striking the reavers killing three. The last helldrake entered hover mode and flamed the reavers, killing one. The reavers passed their leadership tests, one on a 9 (go arena champion)!

Turn 5 (DE):
BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts Deturn5
"Look a bare patch in the armour on it's underbelly! Fire the Black Blaster!" - Arena Champion of the Buzzards

The ravagers and the reavers fired at the helldrake in hover mode destroying it. The game ended, DE Victory!

DE VPs: 2 (line breaker, slay the warlord) CS VPs: 1 (first blood)

Overview

What a riveting game. I went into the game with one plan, to win on secondary objectives. I deployed my army in such a fashion that it looked like my reavers would go for the obliterator on the left and the havocs on the right. However what my opponent failed to notice is that they could also go for the kill on anything deployed on the centre of the board. Taking out the havocs was the logical thing for me to do (they rip through raiders and are relatively easy pain tokens for reavers), and I was hoping that's what my opponent would assume. I took a gamble, the havocs could only shoot at two targets a turn, and by deploying my warriors outside my transports I had created a lot of different targets, hopefully enough to get through a turn or two before the havocs were silenced. My opponent already having first blood also meant that I needed the slay the warlord point badly and needed to take out his most resilient scoring unit. The rest of the game I used positioning and assault to systematically eliminate my opponents ground forces and minimise the damage of the drakes. Exposing my troops in an attempt to bait the drakes away from my reavers during the crucial turn when they came in from reserve (a crucial mistake on my opponents part). Once I had the edge it was all about keeping the reavers alive for line breaker and protecting my Archon.

Helldrakes: They were annoying before however they are far more dangerous since the latest FAQ. Their turret flamer is a real pain to avoid, and the cover ignoring vector strikes reliably mince through our fragile transports. They do suffer from one weapon syndrome as that lucky penetrating hit showed. Personally I think three helldrakes is too much, two is far more solid as it means you can invest in more boots on the ground, and still go round reliably popping tanks and eating troops. A good thing to remember is that flyers can't fly off on the same turn they come in, and they can't fly over you if there's no space behind you, you can use this to avoid those vector strike hits on key turns by hugging a table edge.

Huron: He was really annoying, infiltrating one of the havocs meant I had no idea where they were going to go and took away some of the deployment advantage of going second, and means no night shield dodging! In short his warlord power is awesome. His random psychic ability is also very impressive as even if you roll on pyromancy you can still get some useful abilities, and it's an element Huron's opponent can't plan for. That "Perfect timing" came out of nowhere! He also has some fantastic close combat ability and a heavy flamer to boot. He seems like the Chaos space marine equivalent of the Duke, a well priced and very useful special character that buffs your army in a variety of ways.

Cultists: This was the first time I saw cultists used in this way as cheap reserve scoring units, the threat of flamers on the back of my opponents board edge also proved annoying and made me think twice before bladevaning. I can imagine against a less mobile army these could be a real pain.

Blaster Archon: He again proved his worth, by staying alive and keeping his distance, whilst reliably taking down key targets when the opportunity arose (killing a total of 220pts worth of models this game).

Dedicated Anti Air: The game would have been a lot easier if I had invested in a voidraven, it could have come in behind the drakes (deepstrike) and easily taken one or two out. The voidraven is by far the cheapest and most accessible of our AA options, it's also more survivable as it isn't vulnerable on turn 1 the same way quad guns are. I might consider investing in one when the new model comes out, but for now my army can get by just fine without any dedicated anti air units.

Hope you enjoyed the report! Smile

_________________
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“Even the Black Buzzards thought highly of him, and those maniacs were renowned for hating everyone.” - Tantalus, by Braden Campbell


Last edited by Mushkilla on Sun Jan 27 2013, 11:46; edited 8 times in total
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curebdc
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BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts Empty
PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 25 2013, 17:13

Very cool report! Very informative for people stressed about flyers. Good moves on ur part at critical moments too!

_________________
"That night the Baron dreamt of many a wo;
And all his warrior-guests, with shade and form
Of witch, and demon, and large coffin-worm,
were long be-nightmared."
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 25 2013, 18:15

Thanks Curebdc. To be honest I think a two drake list would have been stronger, three is just over kill and it's a lot of points on stuff that isn't on the board first turn. That being said the new FAQ makes them so strong!

My opponent also made a massive mistake not going after the reavers on turn the helldrakes came in, If he had gone after reavers he might have won. I think he got side tracked into thinking: if I kill all the Dark Eldar troops they can't win.

Either way it just goes to show that we can win this matchup without dedicated anti air units. Had this been any other flyer spam it would have been a lot easier as they don't have ridiculous cover ignoring torrent flamers that can shoot in every direction and are therefore limited to their fire arcs.

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curebdc
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PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 25 2013, 22:26

I dunno cron air is pretty bad too! Last game I had the line of death killed 3 vehicles in 1 turn. Granted I was bunched up far too much.

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And all his warrior-guests, with shade and form
Of witch, and demon, and large coffin-worm,
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 25 2013, 23:17

Fighting Necron air is all about exploiting the short range of their weapons (24") and their limited firing arcs of 45 degrees. Their flyers weapons don't ignore cover either, so once you wipe out their ground forces you can at least go to ground and take pot shots at them. You also need to be wary of the tesla destructor arc rule when your units are not in cover, when in cover it's less of a problem as it only has a 1/6 chance of bouncing and you'll get saves against it if it does.

Ultimately necron air tends to win by dropping troops on objectives on the last turn to contest and control, rather than outright destroying you, though they can (if you aren't careful). You want to have the objectives as bunched up as possible (preferably in area terrain) as it reduces his mobility advantage. Take out his ground forces and hull up on the objectives in terrain and try to ride out the storm.

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Latest Report: BR4: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Imperial Knights - 1250pts
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PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 26 2013, 19:26

Was your opponents list a TAC list? Or just designed to beat DE. It seems odd to come across a list that ignores the very concept of Landraiders. Great job beating it though, its always nice to see a good general with a TAC list beat a more tailored one. Sorta makes me worry a bit less about triple drakes. While they will probably always give us a hard time, lists that don't have the tools to deal with termies and Landraiders won't get far against more varied opponents. I agree 2 will probably be the most we will see.
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PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 26 2013, 21:49

Interesting game! All troops gone by the end of tun 3, so yes the reavers were targetted too late. I wondered if the two cultist units who came in from reserve turn 3 should have gone after the reavers then instead of trying to hold the objective - your counterattack was always going to wipe them out, so they may as well have had a go.

Those flyers are brutal. 'Vector Strike the vehicle then flame the passengers' was done to you twice, and such an easy tactic to apply (no style!). Why were they FAQed to become more powerful at the same time as newer flyers are being toned down? A real question, but may as well be rhetorical eh? But yeah. 3 is probably too many in a 1500pt list and you did the right thing to wipe out the ground forces and flyers be damned. Some useful tactics to hide from vector striking too, good for all players.

Also you picked up a useful warlord trait for once, but in the one game where not putting the reavers in reserve was the way to go. One day eh?

Clear and concise report as always, though at one point I think you got your left and right mixed up!

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PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 26 2013, 22:39

@Squierboy wrote:
Why were they FAQed to become more powerful at the same time as newer flyers are being toned down? A real question, but may as well be rhetorical eh? But yeah.

This! They must love heldrake or something. It amazes me how they have all those perks and still cost similar or under other flyers. 4 hull points! Regen! Invlun! movement attack (vector strike)! Uber flamer! But anyways... I guess this is just heldrakes day in the sun. Sry to derail the thread back on topic...

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Septimus
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PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 27 2013, 06:16

I don't believe the CSM player tailored his list in any way to fight DE.

If I was to do that I would take a lot of noise marines and a slaanesh sorceror - and 2-3 helldrakes. Can't imagine something I would hate more as a DE player than encountering at least half an army ignoring all my precious cover saves.

The heldrake has 3 HP, not 4.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 27 2013, 11:36

@Creeping Dementia wrote:
Was your opponents list a TAC list? Or just designed to beat DE. It seems odd to come across a list that ignores the very concept of Landraiders.

No it wasn't, this guy bought three drakes on release, he likes the Red Corsairs space pirates theme. The obliterator was his one option for dealing with land raiders with deepstrike and multimedia/twin-linked melta (hardly reliable). Although this is a trend I have noticed in 6th: Mass infantry! Plasma is the new melta! Rhinos are useless! What's a land raider?

@Creeping Dementia wrote:
While they will probably always give us a hard time, lists that don't have the tools to deal with termies and Landraiders won't get far against more varied opponents. I agree 2 will probably be the most we will see.

Triple Drake just has too many disadvantages, for a start it means you can't take bikes (fast melta) or spawn (fast melee threat). It's also a lot of points on something that just isn't versatile enough to be spammed because it's useless against 2+ saves and AV14. Not to mention is hefty point investment.

@Squierboy wrote:
I wondered if the two cultist units who came in from reserve turn 3 should have gone after the reavers then instead of trying to hold the objective - your counterattack was always going to wipe them out, so they may as well have had a go.

Another mistake on my opponents behalf, the cultists could have got two good templates off, and possibly killed a few reavers. It definitely would have been better than hiding in cover. For some reason people seem to consistently underestimate reavers, I don't know why, it's not like they are a cheap unit either!

In the picture it looks like the reavers are not in combat because it shows the state of the game at the end of CSM Turn 3 so when the cultists and the third drake came onto the board (beginning of CSM Turn 3) they couldn't go after the reavers as they were still locked combat with the havocs.

@Squierboy wrote:
Those flyers are brutal. 'Vector Strike the vehicle then flame the passengers' was done to you twice, and such an easy tactic to apply (no style!).

It's a really annoying tactic, I can imagine it makes marine players cry. Vector strike rhino, 10 marines grouped up, hit all ten with the baleflamer and use soulforge to re-roll wounds. On average that should kill 9.72 marines!

@Squierboy wrote:
Some useful tactics to hide from vector striking too, good for all players.

I only worked out that one about the table edge during the game. The situation had never come up before where I needed to keep my Archon alive at all costs, with the main threat to him being vector strike. It annoyed my opponent no end: "It breaks immersion, playing on a finite space shouldn't limit abilities, it's so unrealistic"... Listen mate, us Dark Eldar have to deal with finite space battle field all the time, do you really think we would deploy within striking distance of the enemy and stay stationary whilst we get shot for the first turn? Besides flying hell chickens have destroyed the precious little immersion this game had!

@Squierboy wrote:
Also you picked up a useful warlord trait for once, but in the one game where not putting the reavers in reserve was the way to go. One day eh?

Tell me about it, it's so annoying!

@Squierboy wrote:
Clear and concise report as always, though at one point I think you got your left and right mixed up!

Thanks. As for left and right I wouldn't be surprised I get them mixed up all the time (will fix it). Smile

EDIT: Wow just realised how bad the left/right situation was. That must have made for a very confusing read! Thanks for pointing it out!

@Septimus wrote:
If I was to do that I would take a lot of noise marines and a slaanesh sorceror - and 2-3 helldrakes. Can't imagine something I would hate more as a DE player than encountering at least half an army ignoring all my precious cover saves.

The big limitation I find with noise marines is more often than not you don't have points to take a slaanesh sorcerer as you already need a warlord to make them troops, not to mention sonic weaponry is really expensive so they only tend to rock blastmasters. That being said since the FAQ and being able to take blastmasters per five marines they have become a fantastic option. I would be surprised if we don't see noise marines popping up in most chaos lists, unfortunately for us.

Thanks for all the great feedback and comments so far everyone! I really appreciate it. Very Happy

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Septimus
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BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts Empty
PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 27 2013, 16:20

Quote :
That being said since the FAQ and being able to take blastmasters per five marines they have become a fantastic option. I would be surprised if we don't see noise marines popping up in most chaos lists, unfortunately for us.


Exactly Wink

A cheap slaanesh lord and a cheap slaanesh sorceror (you don't have to make him lvl 3 to be effective, lvl 1 is fine) and a couple small 5 model noise marine units with sonic blasters/blastmaster is not too expensive. Depending on upgrades that's about 1/3 of a 1500 point list.

Take a couple of heldrakes and now you also have a dedicated anti-marine element in your army on top of the dedicated anti-xeno slaanesh part in your army.


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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 27 2013, 18:15

@Septimus wrote:
a cheap slaanesh sorceror (you don't have to make him lvl 3 to be effective, lvl 1 is fine)

My argument is more that you don't need Symphony of pain. A level one sorcerer only have a 50% chance of getting Symphony of Pain. Furthermore it's a malediction with 24" range that is cast at the beginning of the movement phase, somewhat limiting what units you can target with it without running the sorcerer as fast element on a bike. Especially now that you can't use maledictions out of fire points. The blast master doesn't really benefit from +1S when shooting Dark Eldar: Varied frequency being S5 already wounds most of our infantry on a 2+, as for single frequency S8 is more than enough to ignore FNP on most of our models. Sure S9 is nice against raiders. However Symphony of Pain like Doom is most potent when you can target a resilient unit and coordinate a lot of fire onto it, nothing in our codex really fits that descriptions. Raiders and ravagers will get taken out too quickly, and most of our units that benefit from cover don't need the +1S to be taken out: reavers, harlequins, wyches, warriors, wracks are all wounded on 2s by the blast master already.

At least that's how I see it. If the blastmaster was S7 then +1S would be a lot more important, however the jump from S8 to S9 is nowhere near as useful.

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Squierboy
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PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 27 2013, 19:18

@Mushkilla wrote:
For some reason people seem to consistently underestimate reavers, I don't know why, it's not like they are a cheap unit either!

Maybe it's because the miniature doesn't look very imposing, or that their basic stat line is unimpressive? A brief perusal of your reports would make anyone wary of them (well, 18 of them at least). You ran into trouble when opponents started targetting them from the start.


@Mushkilla wrote:
It's a really annoying tactic, I can imagine it makes marine players cry. Vector strike rhino, 10 marines grouped up, hit all ten with the baleflamer and use soulforge to re-roll wounds. On average that should kill 9.72 marines!

Luckily no marine players ever takes rhinos any more - 'cos 'Rhino's are useless!'

@Mushkilla wrote:
It annoyed my opponent no end: "It breaks immersion, playing on a finite space shouldn't limit abilities, it's so unrealistic"... Listen mate, us Dark Eldar have to deal with finite space battle field all the time, do you really think we would deploy within striking distance of the enemy and stay stationary whilst we get shot for the first turn? Besides flying hell chickens have destroyed the precious little immersion this game had!

A bit cheeky, that. He can swoop about the place almost completely unopposed, causing mayhem all the while, what more does he want?
DE are at their most vulnerable turn 1, it's always the point of a game that I am most nervous. I used to get around that by webway portalling back in the day when raiders & such could use them. Now I just hope for good LOS-blocking terrain, 1st turn or night fight. I was glad to see you do well despite not really getting any of these.

@Mushkilla wrote:
EDIT: Wow just realised how bad the left/right situation was. That must have made for a very confusing read! Thanks for pointing it out!

No worries - it just seemed to make more sense when i swapped them over!

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Mushkilla
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BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts Empty
PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 27 2013, 19:56

@Squierboy wrote:
Maybe it's because the miniature doesn't look very imposing, or that their basic stat line is unimpressive? A brief perusal of your reports would make anyone wary of them (well, 18 of them at least). You ran into trouble when opponents started targetting them from the start.

One of the main reasons I have started running them in reserve, this game was one of the few scenarios where I felt starting them on the board was worth it. The whole reserve into early pain token makes them so much stronger.

@Squierboy wrote:
Luckily no marine players ever takes rhinos any more - 'cos 'Rhino's are useless!'

Oh no! My marines (who are average in assault at best) can't assault out of rhinos.

@Squierboy wrote:
DE are at their most vulnerable turn 1, it's always the point of a game that I am most nervous. I used to get around that by webway portalling back in the day when raiders & such could use them. Now I just hope for good LOS-blocking terrain, 1st turn or night fight. I was glad to see you do well despite not really getting any of these.

Yeah, it always really annoyed me that a lot of DE games could be decided by going first or second. As a result I really tried to build my list so that it could do well going second (and actually wanted to go second more often than not). Still first turn is always going to be stressful, but less so. Smile

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Septimus
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PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 27 2013, 20:33

Quote :
My argument is more that you don't need Symphony of pain.

Not vs. DE, that's right - wouldn't even do anything to mitigate the bladevane attacks - but I'm not only having DE in mind.

I think all the slaanesh powers are pretty cool and when I make a list I always do it from a take all comers point of view, that's why I expect to see a sorceror.


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Nappen
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PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 28 2013, 01:40

Nice report and great game. Not a lot to say that hasn't been said Smile
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 28 2013, 12:04

Thanks for the support Nappen. Very Happy

@Septimus wrote:
I think all the slaanesh powers are pretty cool and when I make a list I always do it from a take all comers point of view, that's why I expect to see a sorceror.

Fair enough. Slaanesh is definitely the most appealing out of the chaos psychic disciplines. However at 1500 points I don't see a chaos player splashing out on both a lord and a sorcerer unless he goes for a very cheap versions of both. Otherwise it's a lot of points spent on the HQ section. In higher point games it seems like a good option though.

Personally when I dabble in chaos I'm a big fan of markless level 3 telepathy sorcerers, it's a fantastic discipline. I have also been experimenting with using the Mark of Slaanesh on most units and always giving champions power swords and gift of mutation, seeing as they have to accept challenges anyway, might as well make them good at winning them (4 I5 power sword attacks tends to do well against most squad leaders). The I5 is actually really useful, not just for striking before marines but also for helping when it comes to sweeping advance (as not having ATSKNF can be a real pain for chaos marines). Smile

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 31 2013, 06:12

Great game Mushkilla, thanks for the report!

As soon as I saw the thread title I thought "uh oh, Heldrake vs reavers... not good!" But it seems your opponent underestimated them.

You did a great job avoiding the 'drakes after they came on, though. Very inspirational!

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 31 2013, 09:04

Thanks Creeping Darkness!

That was his biggest mistake: going for my troops instead of the reavers on the turn the drakes came in. As for avoiding helldrakes, there is only so much you can do against a turret mounted torrent flamer. That being said this game has definitely made me more confident in my ability to handle other flyer heavy armies that don't have turret mounted weapons that ignore cover (vendetta spam, scythe spam and the occasional double storm-raven). Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 31 2013, 11:03

I recently had a game against an imperial guard air cavalry (some forge world)

It was a special mission with a lot of odd rules, however he had 3 flyers.

1 vendetta
1 vendetta chassis with a heavy 20 S5 gun (dangerous to say the least) and strafing run
1 flyers with lascannon, auto-cannon and 4 "big blast" flamer rockets

Using Mush advice and other dark eldar advices here and on dakkadakka I found that I could avoid a lot of the flyers. One of them had vector dancer and the vendetta could use hoover. Vector dancer was annoying and the vendetta had one glorious hoover round before it got shot down. The game only lasted until turn 4 since we had to en early. If we had the time I would have won the game (he only had the rocket plane left and it was out of rockets.) It would seem that while flyers are very bad as there is very little I can do to interact with them good mobility and positioning can counter this:

If they come in turn 2 and shoot you, turn 90¤ and shoot you again then they often can not shoot turn 4. So you would be looking at two turns of shooting from a flyer as a fast dark eldar. Those two turns are bad as it is hard to get cover but that is a lot of points for a few turns of shooting. Hoover can rip you up, but as long as you have enough dark lances to retaliate the flyer should be dead afterwards.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 31 2013, 11:19

Good to hear it! Those vectore dancing vultures can be a real nightmare (even more so when they have the twin linked punisher cannon BS3+1 for strafing run twinlinked S5 heavy 20). They just eats through our raiders like nothing else. Shocked

Hover mode can be pain too, but like you said as long as you have enough lance/blaster fire to make sure anything that goes into hover mode will not last more than a turn you should be ok. It's when you don't have enough fire power to punish flyers for going into hover mode that you have a real problem (like my old heatlance/haywire list that relied on short range AT)! Smile

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Zanais
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PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 31 2013, 11:43

Im wondering Mush, were you considering such reaver setup:
6x reaver
2x caltrops

cause you usually just use reaver's bladevanes.
And what would be your plan if that drake player went after your reavers not troops?

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 31 2013, 12:22

@Zanais wrote:
Im wondering Mush, were you considering such reaver setup:
6x reaver
2x caltrops

cause you usually just use reaver's bladevanes.

I have considered it, but I don't think it's worth while.

6 reavers, 2 caltrops on average kill 3.27 marines.
9 reavers on average kill 3 marines.

6 reavers, 2 caltrops on average kill 6.56 guardsmen/eldar.
9 reavers on average kill 8 guardsmen/eldar.

For 26 points more I have three extra wounds, more shooting ability, more combat ability, and similar bladevane damage output.

For an extra 45pts I get blasters. Which I find too useful to pass up on, they are great, add weight to your shooting, let you soften up the target more before assault. The main reason for assaulting is to prevent your enemy from shooting you, so anything that makes the combat easier by removing models in the shooting phase is a blessing. Sure some games you might just bladevane, but other games your reavers can easily spend all their time hunting tanks. Also the mobility of reavers make their blasters more valuable than dark lances on a raider or blasters in warrior squads as they are far more likely to be shooting side or rear armour.

At least that's how I see it. Very Happy

@Zanais wrote:
And what would be your plan if that drake player went after your reavers not troops?

Get my warriors into transports, and try to get them into combat with the cultists, and keep my archon alive. That way I would deny my opponents objective, and have slay the warlord, line breaker (because of the archon/warriors in his deployment zone) and he would hopefully only have first blood (nothing fast enough to get line breaker). Whether it would have worked out I can't really say, depends on whether the reavers would have been strong enough to still take out the havocs after taking casualties from the helldrakes. It's never going to be an easy fight against helldrakes, and soulblaze is really unpredictable (potential a good roll could take out 3 reavers or more!).

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Shrike423
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PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 31 2013, 21:43

@Mushkilla wrote:
Good to hear it! Those vectore dancing vultures can be a real nightmare (even more so when they have the twin linked punisher cannon BS3+1 for strafing run twinlinked S5 heavy 20).

I faced an Elysian guard army a little while back, that featured three of these. They are vicious and because my opponent was using Elysian drop troop rules, it allowed the vultures to fly on as a squadron but also allowed them to split up! One turn are they together, next thing you know you have three going in different directions ripping through your scoring units!

My tactic for them is provide a juicy target for them to focus on to absorb their shooting. At one point, my haemonculous went to ground in a ruin all by himself and survived all sixty shots! Shocked

Pure luck and a single wrack sitting on an object plus a holy relic won me that game.
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BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts Empty
PostSubject: Re: BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts   BR19: The Black Buzzards VS CSM Triple Helldrake - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeFri Feb 01 2013, 03:42

I am split on the reavers: either two units of 9 or three units of 6. The 9-count are more robust, but the 6-count threaten a broader swath of the table (read: all of it).

I know my league-mates are looking hard at their fliers right now, and we've got two CSM players, so this was a great look at the dangers of the Heldrake. Nice report!
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