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 FF vs NS

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tlronin
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PostSubject: FF vs NS   FF vs NS I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 25 2013, 10:47

Hey guys,

I want to hear your opinions.

I've always been a huge fan of Nightshields. Especially in 6th edition because we get jink saves now. But I noticed quite a lot that I couldn't take a jink save for 1 reason or another. I rarely throw Nightfight and ussually play against people with 72" ranges. So I equipped my vehicles with Flickerfields and enjoyed it quite alot to be able to try to save against whatever my opponent could throw at me. Perhaps it's because my regular opponent is an IG player? But I'm going with FFs now.

What are your experiences?


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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: FF vs NS   FF vs NS I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 25 2013, 10:49

In your situation, facing lots of long range weapons, I'd agree that Night Shields are not worth it. Against those weapons though, I'd also say that Flickerfields aren't worth it either as you will usually be moving and most of the 72" weapons don't ignore cover.

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: FF vs NS   FF vs NS I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 25 2013, 10:53

Well, you can even take a FF save when you' re immobile and when you get stranded in difficult terrain. I found that quite enjoyable.

Plus you could load up DL toting Warriors, and choose to not move a turn because you can get a clear shot.

It just brings more versatile tactics to our army.

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: FF vs NS   FF vs NS I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 25 2013, 10:54

I only see one use for NS, thats to avoid those bolter shots.
FF is more usefull imo. (close,flamers,other stuff that ignore cover save, Turn 1 if you dont start)

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: FF vs NS   FF vs NS I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 25 2013, 10:57

Yup, i forgot flamers and turn 1's. More advantages for FFs.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: FF vs NS   FF vs NS I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 25 2013, 11:25

I almost always go second however more often than not I can give all my raiders cover, they only need to be 25% hidden and they can give cover to each other. That being said I don't take night shields because I run reavers and I sometimes like to start my warriors outside their raiders. Raiders are great as is I find the upgrades are a trap.

That being said having one or two raiders with flicker fields if you don't run venoms can be handy to give cover to the rest of your army.

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Hess
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PostSubject: Re: FF vs NS   FF vs NS I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 25 2013, 11:35

Been running 1400-1600 pts lists lately with NS on all vehicles to my opponents great discouragement, especially in the local gaming club where most players are Marine players with meltas and what not. Those melta guns with only a melta threat range of 3" is fantastic, let alone I'm forcing my opponent to attack specific vehicles by placing 1 ahead of the other, making sure all of my opponents shots get fired at the turbo boosted raider Smile

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: FF vs NS   FF vs NS I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 25 2013, 11:48

I used Night Shelds against Grey Knights the other day and with their 24" range they were very effective. My only casualties were when I moved forward to get better shooting angles and when his Stormraven arrived in the middle of the table.

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: FF vs NS   FF vs NS I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 25 2013, 11:56

@Darklight, hess: Concerning the bolters and melta range. If I'm that close, I want to have my cargo delivered already and in CC.

@Mush: Yup, the upgrades can be a trap. Never overdo it, because you have to expect them to be destroyed utmost by the end of turn 3.

@Count. I must admit that against GK I think NS are better.

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Nappen
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PostSubject: Re: FF vs NS   FF vs NS I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 30 2013, 11:50

This is one of the only areas I tend to tailor my list. Against marines and necrons I like NS. Against Tau and IG I like FF. I also like FF on the jetfighter so I don't have to bother with evading.

If I have no idea who I am going to play I tend to put NS on my ravagers and things that are going to be at range (empty raiders and maybe venoms) and move every turn or look for cover and FF on any raiders I am going to try to get in close as venoms already have it.

The only other upgrade I will consider is splinter racks on my raider with my Duke enhanced 3+ poison Warrior gunboat. Otherwise, the raiders are not strong enough to justify doing much to them with upgrades.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: FF vs NS   FF vs NS I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 30 2013, 13:33

FF's are a must for me on my raiders, I've saved them so many times, including one taking fire from 1000pts of marines (including 2 thunderfire cannons) with only 1 penetrating hit. It's not so much the regularity with which you make the saves, but when and it seems FF's are the only time I can make a dice roll that annoys my opponent (dread to think of the number of times I've missed with a 3+ to hit Dark Lance roll, it's definitely more often than 1 in 3!)

I'd say that my tactics dictate which vehicles get night shields. I generally don't bother on anything that's delivering an assault unit, cos they'll be too close for it to matter. Gunboat Raiders get them, as do ravagers (vital against 36" weapons really annoyed the ork player i played against last week when he couldn't use his zzap gun against them, but did get shot back!)

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: FF vs NS   FF vs NS I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 30 2013, 17:04

I am a firm believer of NS on every vehicle.

The ability to be out of range and then move into range with our gunboats is invaluable! I would rather not get shot at then rely on a save!

Later in the game it still messes with the enemy helping you manipulate which vehicles get shot at.

I regularly take out long fangs turn 1 using NS - deploying 43" away (thanks to premeasuring) then moving into range turn 1 and splintering them to death...

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: FF vs NS   FF vs NS I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 31 2013, 07:31

@Massaen: Well, that is actually 1 of the troubles I have using NS effectively. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, I' ll explain...

You've got Grey Knights with a 2+ armoursave and 24" range weapons. I come into range (which is 24") with my Raider (+ splinterrack) and fire 10 splinterrifles in the Grey Knights. On average you miss 1/3e, so for simplicity's sake I hit 7 times. Then I wound on a 4+, so for simplicity's sake I wounded 4 times. Now, the GK saves on a 2+. So if I actually kill 1 (by him throwing a 1) it's a nice result.
In his turn he moves 6" towards me. He's now 18" away. The exact distance he needed to shoot. Now they ussually have nice weapons to deal with our AV10 paper planes. Buhbye Raider. How many Warriors die in the explosion ('cause murphy's law makes it explode each and every time)?

See what I mean? I only get 1 turn shooting, the next turn he' ll always be in range. 1 turn is ussually not enough. So... How do you experience this?

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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: FF vs NS   FF vs NS I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 31 2013, 08:01

It's true they don't always let you just casually stand off and pelt the enemy without any fear of retaliation but they do give options and alter decisions that otherwise wouldn't happen. For example you mention that those terminators could just walk forward 6" and still shoot and that's true but it does force them to make that move if they want that option. What if they were in cover and now need to move out of it? What if they were on an objective and need to move off it? Suddenly that moving 6" forward doesn't seem as simple.

And then you have other weapon ranges. What if they have a range of 18 or less (or their weapon was weaker at longer distances like being out of rapid fire range)? Now you can sit out of range pelting them/survive easier. Or what if your weapons had longer range (like say Dark Lances/Splinter Cannons)? It makes it much harder to trade shots with you at that range (as an aside, the 24" range issue is one reason why I don't like Warrior/Raider Splinter Rack Gunboats and prefer Venoms/Splinterborn). And of course there is the "Start outside their range then move in to shoot" strat Massaen mentions which is much easier with Night Shields.

I personally don't consider Night Shields "must haves" by any means but I do see their value. I don't recommend buying any upgrades at all (I'd rather save those points for more troops) but I would probably buy Night Shields before I bought Flicker Fields. Of course your opponent does dictate what' good for you and in your case you did say you face IG all the time which does make NS worse and FF better (I still wouldn't buy either though). So in the end there isn't any single/easy answer.
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