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 The iceing on the cake

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Ashdil
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PostSubject: The iceing on the cake   The iceing on the cake I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 21 2013, 01:03


Hullo!

I have more or less decided on how I want my first army to look like, what models to get and so on. But as I lack the experience with DE and 40k as a whole. I now know the rules more or less. But I dont now much about the other armies, I do also have dAemons and so have thier codex, but other then that I have to check the unit listing in the rulesbook. Where I will play I seem to be able to meet allmost any army, only a few SM variants lacking.
What I want help with is to know witch elite unit would fit the rest of the list best, what would work best with all the other stuff. so something that might complete it. What I see is that I lack a true CC unit, and having one would do good, as you cant outrun everyone. And being able to face the enemies hardhitters face to face is allways a good option. But then, the game is not about kills, it's about objectives. So i find all my three ideas are rather good.
basic idea of the list:
Succubus
Heamonculus
10 warriors in raider splinter cannon
9 warrios in raider
5 wyches in venom x2 haywire grenades
10 hellions
6 reavers 2 blasters
5 scourges 2 haywire
1 ravager
1 Talos twin liquiguns
1 Voidraven.

So lots of stuff moving fast. Might change the Talos into a second ravager aswell.
So here are the elite options.

1: 5 Incubi in raider, night shields
Succubus with venom blade to make the points fit. Goes with incubi. Can get into the fight fast or just get in the way and kill what needs to be killed. this is the most expensive option.

2: 6 Harliquins, 2 with kisses, 1 shadowsseer upgrade, 1 troupe master upgrade.
Succubus goes in here with agoniser. more or less another version or option 1. But might be better suited for more jobs!? abit slower, but can still move fast... but does the succubus drag them down to much? Should she be in a raider instead if I take theese? Actully cheapest option of the 3.

3: 4 wracks in venom. leaves me more points for the other units, champ upgrades and whatnot. Another troop choice and perfect for objectives. Heamonculus joins here.
Would make the succubs a worse choice, and allmost calls for a change and get an archon instead. But i like the succubus model more.

So there are the choices. I know many would say, pick the models you like best. But as I cant get all three units into the same list I have to choose. Will probably get the other later on. But I want the best first pick as I cant buy alot of stuff at once. So this army will grow over time.

Please let me know what you think!
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Tony Spectacular
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PostSubject: Re: The iceing on the cake   The iceing on the cake I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 21 2013, 01:15

I wouldn't run Hellions without the Baron. They lose most of their worth if they're not troops, and it takes the Baron to make that happen. I personally prefer Wracks in groups of 3 or 5. 3 for cheap Venoms, 5 for the Liquifier upgrade. If I take 5 I usually take tha Acothyst with a VB, both for the 2+ poison and for the LD boost. If I take Reavers I like to take multiple units of them. Usually 3. I've been working with one unit of 6 and 2 units of 3 lately, with blasters and arena champ (with VB) on the group of 6 and either HL or caltrops on the groups of 3. This spreads out the damage and forces the enemy to shoot down multiple units to strip me of my Reavers, who are in their face harassing and threating serious damage on turn 1. With their Jink they usually stick around at least 2 turns, and draw a lot of fire that would otherwise target my mech/troops. I also like larger groups of Wyches in Raiders, and if I run a Haem I stick him here, both for the FNP and to separate from the Wyches on assault to draw Overwatch and to allow the Wyches to use their Fleet. Incubi function best with an Archon with PGL. Lack of grenades limits their effectiveness greatly. If running 10 Warriors in a Raider the Racks upgrade is well worth it, unless you plan on dumping them out early.

Haha...sorry for the wall of text. Just my thoughts on what you posted. YMMV.
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Ashdil
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PostSubject: Re: The iceing on the cake   The iceing on the cake I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 21 2013, 01:24

thanks for the input!
I forgot to add that the warrior raider has both night shields and splinter racks.
The venom all have a second splinter cannon and night shields, the ravager also has night shields.

As for the hellions and the Baron, I first thought to run the baron, and he is a very good choice overall, and will convert one Hellion to be able to represent him. But i do want to make my own chars, I dont want to be locked into his fluff, and being who he is I would very much need to be so. I might choose him in the end. But even so I can still pick one of the elite units, and I guess your voting on the wracks in this case!? =)
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Tony Spectacular
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PostSubject: Re: The iceing on the cake   The iceing on the cake I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 21 2013, 14:16

I actually would never field either Hellions or Wracks as Elites. Only as troops. For elites I use either Incubi (only with Archon), Blasterborn or Grotesques (and only with Urien, Taloi, and Wracks). I'm temped to start trying Beastmasters with Razorwing Flocks and Khymaera. They look awfully useful. The only reason I haven't run them yet is that I hate using 'flavor of the week' units. But their utility is undeniable, and I'm debating doing some bigger tournaments this year.

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B3@$tM@5t3r
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PostSubject: Re: The iceing on the cake   The iceing on the cake I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 21 2013, 15:07

The Beastmasters are incredibly useful. For one thing, they will shred all but the hardest things in CC. The other awesome thing about them is that they will absorb a bunch of fire and attention away from the rest of your army. And if you stick the Baron out front there, they may live a long long time. If you're good at rolling 2++ anyway.
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Ashdil
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PostSubject: Re: The iceing on the cake   The iceing on the cake I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 22 2013, 08:57

Okey. The usefullness of beastmaster is for another thread. I wanted to know what unit from the elite section would fit the rest of the Army most. And Tony, if you look at the list. You will find the heamie that makes wracks troops. So they would be troops, But they still come from the elite section.
Does anyone have any tips on wich of the three choices would work best with the above list?
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: The iceing on the cake   The iceing on the cake I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 22 2013, 21:05

Oh the 3 you mentioned I prefer the Incubi, they wipe MEQ squads fast.

The Harlequins are very difficult to use, especially when you are giving up their ignore difficult terrain by adding an IC and they don't do as much damage to MEQ or TEQ as Incubi do

I usually want an assualt unit to go out and take out supperior fire power that generally wants to be in the back field, Harlies just can't do this for me. Other players like to have a Counter Assualt unit (to deal with people like me sending in assualt units to take out there best fire power) in which case the Harlies are probably just fine.

Wracks are meh, they can't really fill either of those two roles well enough by themselves although you have a decent amount of assualt force in your list so you may be able to add them in to absorb overwatch help outnumber your opponent in an assualt where you are sending multiple units against a single unit of your opponent. I don't get much use out of this tactic in 6th ed, it's not nearly as easy to do any more.

If you were to consider a 4th choice, I would say Grots can be as nice as incubi and in some cases much nicer. Expect for against grey knights, Unless you put Lady Malys in the unit those force weapons are a pain for them

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Sathonyx
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PostSubject: Re: The iceing on the cake   The iceing on the cake I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 23 2013, 04:49

I'm one of the least experienced on this site, but have gotten GREAT TACTICAL ADVISE from every contributor here. I was away since 3rd edition til this one, so vast majority of my stuff is old models. Incubi had always been my favorite (old and new figs). Yes, they still kill SM and termies in hand to hand. But what I found happening is that when they did, they were left in the open and shot to pieces right after. They won't see as much playing time for me now. I'd look at another box of warriors for use as trueborn. They can be configured so many ways. My next choice would be Grotesques. So I'm in total agreement with Tony Spectacular. But don't go the GW- $100 route for 4 of them. Check out the modelling/converting/painting section on this site. There's a thread there on substitute Grotesques and conversion; you don't have to be a modelling wizard either. Access Hoard'O Bits site and get what you need to do 5 Grotesques for around $40, instead of 4 for $100 !! They look great and unless you're in a GW tourny, it doesn't matter.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: The iceing on the cake   The iceing on the cake I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 23 2013, 08:07

I have to agree grotesques are a fantastic elite choice, especially when supported by a succubus or archon.

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Tony Spectacular
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PostSubject: Re: The iceing on the cake   The iceing on the cake I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 23 2013, 15:15

Grots with Urien and an Archon would make an expensive, but seriously brutal unit.

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Ashdil
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PostSubject: Re: The iceing on the cake   The iceing on the cake I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 23 2013, 15:22

Okey so grots need to be a contender. Should I take 4 with the succubus in a raider or 5 walking with succubus?Thats what I can make room for in the list. Any upgrades that Sofia wonders with them? The rat ogre variants I have seen here do look aesome!
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: The iceing on the cake   The iceing on the cake I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 23 2013, 15:35

I would take the following:

Succubus, venom blade or agoniser
4 grotesques, liquifier, aberration, venom blade
Raider, Enhanced aether sail

Coming in from reserve to crash land wherever you need them. That way they at least get into position before your opponent can shoot them down.

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: The iceing on the cake   The iceing on the cake I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 23 2013, 15:48

If you are already planning on taking a Haemy, throwing the Haemy with a liquifier into the unit Mush mentioned above is sooo nasty with double liquification (not to mention plasma grenade from succubus) and and furious charge for str 6 grots, assuming there is anything left to charge other than liquified goo

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PostSubject: Re: The iceing on the cake   The iceing on the cake I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 23 2013, 19:59

I will work out a list with grots and see if I need to take something away or not.
If I take the heamy with this unit. They will be great, but will it be to much of a point sink in one unit?
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: The iceing on the cake   The iceing on the cake I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 23 2013, 20:02

Personally I think a succubus is more important if you have to chose one or the other, as she is LD9 and they will benefit from her I8 for sweeping advance (both running away and chasing), she can also tank S5 and under power weapon/regular weapon hits with her 4++/FNP making the grots a lot tougher. That being said the extra liquifier and furious charge the haemi brings are nice.

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Latest Report: BR4: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Imperial Knights - 1250pts
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Sathonyx
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PostSubject: Re: The iceing on the cake   The iceing on the cake I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 24 2013, 04:43

You mentioned conversion of Rat Ogres as Grotesques; which is a good thought I hadn't considered. Before I learned HERE ON THIS SITE about the War Machine/Hordes unit called Warspears, I was going to convert Minotaurs from Fantasy. But both Rat Ogres and Minotaurs come 3 to a box, which means you need 2 boxes and have spent $80 (plus). It does give you a little more flexibility having 6 in a webway portal (on foot) if you want to play them that way. BUT, take a look at the Warspears that come 5 to a box for about $45. There are 3 reasons NOT to do what I suggest with Grot conversions: 1) You believe in firmly supporting GW, 2) You plan on using them in quite a few GW tournaments, 3) You have money to burn. Check out Eye of Terror's Grot conversions in our site's modelling section, its the balls. I based my conversions after his as my main design, but using some fighting gauntlets from fantasy Ogre Kingdoms Bulls, along with axes, and liquifiers from Talos model....which also has the extra masks you'll need to do it.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: The iceing on the cake   The iceing on the cake I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 24 2013, 07:22

If you can snap up the rat ogres from the fantasy starter box on ebay it can be really cheap. Normally around $10-15 for two.

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Ashdil
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PostSubject: Re: The iceing on the cake   The iceing on the cake I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 24 2013, 07:45

I have also seen ideas of using the vampire counts grypt ghouls models, could do well, but you get three. But then I could ad one "real" and use him as an aberration or something.
I do look for the starter rat ogres, there are a few around, so i will see if i can get them for a nice price.

I have now also made a new list, posted it in my thread in the army list forum:
https://www.thedarkcity.net/t5116-hullo-and-please-help-me-with-a-1750p-list#58878
Had to drop a few things to get it around 1750 and still not loose to much hitting and firepower.

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PostSubject: Re: The iceing on the cake   The iceing on the cake I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 24 2013, 16:44

having used both rat ogre and crypt ghoul bits, I would recommend the crypt ghouls... there was far less modifying to do, and the base model has very few "fantasy" accesories already attached, as opposed to the rat ogres which I found I had to do a bit more removal/remodeling with green stuff to get a look I liked.
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