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 The return of kill zones!

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Tiri Rana
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CaptainBalroga
ThePhish
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   zones - The return of kill zones! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 22 2013, 12:24

@1++ wrote:
So take Splinter Cannons with all Warrior squads and premeasure so that just one enemy model is 12" away from the Raider's hull, to allow you to then Rapid Fire and wound the entire sqaud. Double up on this and say bye bye marine squad hehehe

You don't need the splinter cannon in that example as rapid fire doesn't affect the range of the weapon this edition all it says is you fire two shots when within half range. So the weapons range is still 24" and therefore can still kill the whole squad. The splinter cannon is nice for shooting stuff at 24" though (poor grey knigths and their 24" range weapons).

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Tiri Rana
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Tiri Rana

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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   zones - The return of kill zones! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 22 2013, 14:12

On the surface the argument that the 'Out of Range' rule refers to models that were within range when To Hit rolls were made and the FAQ ruling refers to models that were not within range when To Hit rolls were made is plausible, but if you'll look closer at the rules you will see, that it is not that simple.

The 'Out of Range' rule:
BRB p.16 wrote:
As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range.

The first instance of model is your own model in range of the enemy.
The question is, when is a model in range of the enemy?

BRB p.12 wrote:
...When checking range, simply measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit...

So a model is in range of the enemy, as long he is in range of the closest visible model in the target unit. All other models are irrelevant.
And he is considered to always be in range 'for the duration of the shooting attack'. So, when does a shooting attack end?

BRB p.15 wrote:
When the Wound pool is empty, the shooting attack has been completely resolved...

So as long as there are Wounds left in the Wound pool, your models, that were in range when To Hit rolls were made, are considered to be in range of the enemy, even if they happen to be out of range now.

Maybe this rule refers to some special situations, where enemy models are moved during the shooting phase or happen to be out of range now, but were in range before.

But, the rule explicitly says: '..., even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range.'!
If the closest model is out of range to your models, because you removed all closer models as casualties then the model in question had to be out of range before you removed those models, too. That means it had to be out of range, from the start, or else it would not end out of range after removing other models, because models don't miraculously move, when you kill other models.
If you have a solution, how a model can be left out of range, by removing casualties, but was in range before casualties were removed, please prove me wrong. I can't think of any.


So, no let's take a look at the FAQ ruling:
BRB FAQ p.3 wrote:
Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within range [of] any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e. half the targeted model[s] are in the shooting models’ range, and half are not)? (p15)
A: No.

This ruling uses a completely different angle, because it is not concerned with own models in range of the enemy, but with enemy models in range of the shooting models.

I have three problems with this angle.
1.) This is never determined in the normal shooting process. Checking Range is only concerned with own models being in range of enemy units. Which and/or how many individual enemy models are actually within or without of range is neither checked nor important for the existing rules, yet it suddenly crops up in a FAQ ruling that clarifies the wound allocation process.

2.) The 'Out of Range' rule on page 16 tells us, that firing models that were within range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made are considered to be still in range for the duration of the shooting attacks, even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range. So we are not allowed to allocate a wound to a model, we are technically considered to be in range of now, because we haven't been in range of it before. This is at least confusing.

3.) The rules tell us, when a shooting attack ends. Namely when the Wound pool is empty. The Wound pool is empty, when either all wounds were allocated, or the whole unit has been removed as casualties. What happens if there are still Wounds and models left, but we can't allocate said wounds to these models, because of the FAQ? The shooting attack never ends and our game grinds to a sudden halt, as the remaining bullets hang in the air unable to wound the left over models, but unable to vanish, before they create the Wounds, they caused. As long as the current shooting attack isn't resolved the player can neither begin the next one, nor proceed to the Assault phase. The only solution is for the players to get a new hobby, while their models remain fixed in this strange limbo state and slowly begin to die of old age.

TL,DR version:
The FAQ ruling is:
a) confusing
b) unnessecary
c) written slopily

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   zones - The return of kill zones! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 22 2013, 14:30

@Tiri Rana wrote:
TL,DR version:
The FAQ ruling is:
a) confusing
b) unnessecary
c) written slopily

I completely agree. It looks like GW are attempting to alter the rules to basically say that models cannot be killed by enemies that are not in range. This is a definite change to the rules and should be an amendment, not a FAQ. It's a change that I happen to agree with and would like to see but unfortunately the way it is written is most definitely not what they intended and could quite easily be abused or broken.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - GW need to hire a professional editor.

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ThePhish
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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   zones - The return of kill zones! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 22 2013, 17:49

@ Tiri
Quote :
But, the rule explicitly says: '..., even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range.'!
If the closest model is out of range to your models, because you removed all closer models as casualties then the model in question had to be out of range before you removed those models, too. That means it had to be out of range, from the start, or else it would not end out of range after removing other models, because models don't miraculously move, when you kill other models.

Squads rarely ever all fire the same type of weapon. There is only 1 wound pool, and all weapons that wounded fall in that pool.

Models don't miraculously move, but they do get removed.

Example:
Let's say a warrior squad has miraculously survived and has remaining 1 warrior with a splinter rifle and 1 warrior with a Dark Lance. They fire at an enemy squad. The splinter rifle is only in range of 1 model, but the dark lance is in range of all models. If the wound caused by the dark lance is resolved first, and it kills the only model that the splinter rifle was in range of, That rule, quoted above still allows the wound caused by the splinter rifle to be allocated to a model that it is not in range of, because it was in range the the To Hit roll was made.


I agree that the errata goes against the rulebook, however I actually like the rule "change". It means you have to have a model in range of another model to actually be able to hurt it, rather than your squad of 10 being in range of 1 model and being able to hurt the whole squad, like the enemy lines up to get shot or something. Makes it a little more realistic and adds another tactical element to it.
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Squierboy
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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   zones - The return of kill zones! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 22 2013, 18:06

@Tiri Rana wrote:
But, the rule explicitly says: '..., even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range.'!
If the closest model is out of range to your models, because you removed all closer models as casualties then the model in question had to be out of range before you removed those models, too. That means it had to be out of range, from the start, or else it would not end out of range after removing other models, because models don't miraculously move, when you kill other models.
If you have a solution, how a model can be left out of range, by removing casualties, but was in range before casualties were removed, please prove me wrong. I can't think of any.

In a unit with mixed range weapons (that also have different strength/AP values), your opponent can allocate wounds from the longer ranged weapons first, potentially removing enough models as casualties to put the shorter ranged weapons out-of-range when it comes to allocate the wounds they have caused. The rule is in place to prevent your opponent doing just that. It does not conflict with the FAQ in question.

So no, models in the target unit don't move during wound allocation, but they do expire!

EDIT: Ok, previous poster beat me to it!

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Malevolent-Storm
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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   zones - The return of kill zones! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 23 2013, 03:39

It also might address an issue where you lose your closest model during your shooting phase due to "gets hot" effect? I don't know if such issues even occur though -I'm tired and not imagining well, but it seemed to me that this was the one way you might lose one of your models when you were shooting.

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Dra'al Nacht
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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   zones - The return of kill zones! - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 23 2013, 06:33

To make it clearer for people, the "Out of Range" rule refers to a single model's shooting. The FAQ refers to the range of the entire unit.
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