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 The return of kill zones!

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Tiri Rana
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 16 2013, 21:27

Quote :
Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds
from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within
range of any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e.
half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half
are not)? (p15)
A: No.

What does this mean? Say you have a warrior squad in a raider only equipped with splinter rifles. If you get a raider just within 24" of it's target and fire with the warriors on board you can only wound the models within 24". Why because you can't allocate wounds against models that were not within range of any of your shooting models. As shown in the picture bellow (they can only kill the models with the red bases):

The return of kill zones! Killzoneexample1
The diagram shows 12" however just read this as 24".

However add a splinter cannon and suddenly, there's no problem as long as it is in range of all the models in the enemy unit.

Also remember that because you have to rapid fire if within 12" (you are not allowed to not rapid fire), this ironically could be limiting the number of models in the enemy unit you can kill if you have all your models in rapid fire range, as your unit will have less range and therefore less models in it's "kill zone".

The above is not the case as rapid fire this edition is not a separate profile it's an "event" that has a range "trigger" similar to how meltas roll two dice for penetration when within half range. Rapid fire is phrased such that you get two shot's when firing within half range. However the above still applies to shots being fired at 24".

So take a splinter cannon and you will never have to deal with this problem.

This is a MASSIVE change to how the game is played. No more dancing around at 36" range with your venoms! Thoughts?

EDIT: Edited to correct rapid fire mistake, as rapid fire does not change the weapons range, it is an event that is triggered when shooting a target within 12" (just like melta).

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Last edited by Mushkilla on Thu Jan 17 2013, 06:55; edited 3 times in total
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SleepyPillow
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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 16 2013, 22:00

I like it, even if the rapidfire+blaster setup situation is unrealistic and uncinematic imo.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 16 2013, 22:08

@SleepyPillow wrote:
I like it, even if the rapidfire+blaster setup situation is unrealistic and uncinematic imo.

It works as long as you have a weapon that is in range of the whole unit, so a splinter cannon is ideal as it has 36" range, and is more cinematic to boot! Very Happy

Defensively this is quite a big deal for us as it limits the effectiveness of short range armies, no more grey knights being within 24" of one warrior and still taking out the whole squad. Of course it cuts both ways, we can no longer do the same with our venoms.

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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 16 2013, 22:44

@Mushkilla wrote:

This is a MASSIVE change to how the game is played. No more dancing around at 36" range with your venoms! Thoughts?

My first thought is that this ruins Night Shields a bit doesn't it?
I don't like it, it smells trouble to me rabbit
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 16 2013, 23:03

Depends how much you were exposing your Venoms before.

Considering most Venoms will kill, on average 1.33 Marines, as long as you are in range of, say, 3 Marines it shouldn't really affect you.
Average GEQ kill is 4, so aim to be within an odd 8 or so.

Overall that probably means a shift of, maybe, 1-2" closer for Venoms.

Ir affects Gunboats more - but Gunboats have always been more risky and less good than Venoms, this just helps make it even moreso. Though, actually, I rarely see Gunboats without S.Cannons - so it might not even affect them at all.

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 16 2013, 23:12

Hooray for warrior splinter cannons!

I assume, from first reading, that this does not affect Look out Sir! rolls? So if a character is on the edge of your range he should still be able to LoS the hits to the guys who are out of range?

If I'm wrong, forget about the warrior splinter cannons, and start premeasuring to deny LoS. Or, thin the mooks out until the character is in front, then line the dark lance raider exactly 36" away.

But surely that's not the case... right?

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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 17 2013, 01:59

People on my local forum were arguing that even if everyone rapidfires their range is still 24". I didn't follow the logic as to why. Something like the weapons RANGE is still 24. What say you guys?
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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 17 2013, 06:48

@Ferox77 wrote:
People on my local forum were arguing that even if everyone rapidfires their range is still 24". I didn't follow the logic as to why. Something like the weapons RANGE is still 24. What say you guys?

Good point, I forgot this edition rapid fire is a "trigger" condition, i.e the weapon has say 24" range and within half of that range shoots twice. The same reason night shields only reduce rapid fire range by 3" (they reduce the overall range by 6", and rapid fire works at half your range!)

I guess the above only applies to weapons shooting at there maximum range. I have edited the main post accordingly.

Thanks Smile

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Lay_Ayanesha
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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 17 2013, 15:06

@Creeping Darkness wrote:

I assume, from first reading, that this does not affect Look out Sir! rolls? So if a character is on the edge of your range he should still be able to LoS the hits to the guys who are out of range?

It doesn't affect Look out Sir! The new victim just jumps into weapon range to rescue his boss.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 17 2013, 15:10

New conundrum. What happens with Template weapons?

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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 17 2013, 15:49

@Count Adhemar wrote:
New conundrum. What happens with Template weapons?

Oh my!, this could be a daemon flamer nerf

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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 17 2013, 16:37

I don't really see a problem with this at all. Like Thor mentioned, on average, you're only going to kill 1.33 marines w/ dual spl. cannons. Be in range of 4 guys and you're fine. MSU can put venoms/squads at different locations to be in range of different models of an enemy unit.

Squad A can hit 4 guys from enemey squad,
Squad B can hit 8 guys firing from roughly the same location. Shoot with Squad A first obviously, then shoot w/ squad B.

Squad C could have a different angle and be hitting different models altogether.

So yeah, a couple inches difference at most and as Mush said, it works to our advantage for defense as well.
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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 18 2013, 23:17

@Seshiru wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
New conundrum. What happens with Template weapons?

Oh my!, this could be a daemon flamer nerf

Ha! Good luck, Flamers still have their 18" Warpfire weapon. A squad will often be forced to mix its Breath of Chaos and Warpfire even without trying to get around FAQs, so typical effectiveness does not even drop.

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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 21 2013, 04:57

@Count Adhemar wrote:
New conundrum. What happens with Template weapons?

i think only the ones hit by the template get hit with the wound
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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 21 2013, 06:00

@Rauky wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
New conundrum. What happens with Template weapons?

i think only the ones hit by the template get hit with the wound

No, wounds are still allocated to the closest model, regardless of models under the template.
Because a template weapon can't hit more models than are within it's range, there is only a problem, if you have multiple templates and hit the same models repeatedly.

This has an effect on blast weapons, though.
Because deviation can cause hits above max range, but wounds can only be allocated to models within range, it might be possible to cause some wounds on a unit out of range, that can't cause wounds.

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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 21 2013, 06:42

Though blasts specifically have as part of their rules that it is possible for them to hit and wound units beyond their range. I would tend to expect that to serve ably to override the new ruling as far as the kill zone for blast markers goes.

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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 21 2013, 07:45

i got blasts such as a plasmacannon to be a glob of plasma so yes the ones in front would get hit first i was thinking flamers and there temp sorry
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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 21 2013, 19:46

This article explains what I was trying to say a lot better. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 21 2013, 23:39

@Mushkilla wrote:
This article explains what I was trying to say a lot better. Smile

Yes a nice and clear explanation, despite some of the responders to that article having an amusingly hard time comprehending what is really quite a simple idea! Makes me wonder what twisted version of the game they play... Question

And yeah, blasts scattering onto a different unit would be an exception, though rare. Should work for barrages also as they follow all the normal rules for blasts (with a few exceptions of course, but nothing that overrides the rule in question).

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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 21 2013, 23:48

@Thor665 wrote:
Though blasts specifically have as part of their rules that it is possible for them to hit and wound units beyond their range. I would tend to expect that to serve ably to override the new ruling as far as the kill zone for blast markers goes.

You're right. I only recalled the 'Wounds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack' part, but the paragraph above says, that Blast weapons can hit and wound model out of range and line of sight, so they should be excluded from this rule.


@Rauky wrote:
i got blasts such as a plasmacannon to be a glob of plasma so yes the ones in front would get hit first i was thinking flamers and there temp sorry

I meant flamer templates. Those wounds are still allocated as normal. So if you have a blob of four models to your right and a lone model to your left, you can place the template over the four models, but if the model on your left is closer to the firer it will have the first unsaved wound allocated to it, even if it wasn't anywhere near the template.


P.S.:
Does anyone else find it interesting, that this FAQ (not erratum) that was meant to clarify an issue on page 15 is directly and absolutely contradicted by the first paragraph on page 16?
BRB p.16 wrote:
As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range.

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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 22 2013, 04:31

@Tiri Rana wrote:

P.S.:
Does anyone else find it interesting, that this FAQ (not erratum) that was meant to clarify an issue on page 15 is directly and absolutely contradicted by the first paragraph on page 16?
BRB p.16 wrote:
As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range.
The FAQ and the 'Out of Range' rule do not contradict each other at all. The 'Out of Range' rule requires that the model was in range when To Hit rolls were made. The FAQ refers to "models that were not within range. . . . when To Hit rolls were made"
Simple.
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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 22 2013, 04:34

I hope this FAQ gets dropped or reworded sooner rather than later

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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 22 2013, 05:02

I don't understand the confusion.

You can only allocate wounds on models that were in range of any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made. Basically, you cannot allocate wounds to models outside of the longest range in your unit, when To Hit rolls were made. Simple.

The 'Out of Range' rule refers to models that were in range when To Hit rolls were made.
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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 22 2013, 09:32

@Tiri Rana wrote:
P.S.:
Does anyone else find it interesting, that this FAQ (not erratum) that was meant to clarify an issue on page 15 is directly and absolutely contradicted by the first paragraph on page 16?
BRB p.16 wrote:
As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the shooting attack, even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range.

Nothing really surprises me in a GW FAQ these days. More often than not they raise more questions than answers.

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PostSubject: Re: The return of kill zones!   The return of kill zones! I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 22 2013, 12:19

@Dra'al Nacht wrote:
I don't understand the confusion.

You can only allocate wounds on models that were in range of any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made. Basically, you cannot allocate wounds to models outside of the longest range in your unit, when To Hit rolls were made. Simple.

So take Splinter Cannons with all Warrior squads and premeasure so that just one enemy model is 12" away from the Raider's hull, to allow you to then Rapid Fire and wound the entire sqaud. Double up on this and say bye bye marine squad hehehe

Its definitely not RAI however....

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