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 Heat Lance/Haywire Scourges

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AvInNebr
Hellion
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PostSubject: Heat Lance/Haywire Scourges   Heat Lance/Haywire Scourges I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2013, 14:32

I appologize if this has been asked before but my search was unsuccessful. What are the thoughts on Heat Lance versus Haywire Blasters for scourges? I've ran Haywire myself but have had Heat Lances suggested to me. The range difference has always been what pushed me to the Haywires ... but what are the thoughts here on the two for scourge squads?

Thanks in advance...
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Rahl
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PostSubject: Re: Heat Lance/Haywire Scourges   Heat Lance/Haywire Scourges I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2013, 15:46

Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide - the final cut

Good stuff I'm trying to take it all in
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huymix
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PostSubject: Re: Heat Lance/Haywire Scourges   Heat Lance/Haywire Scourges I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2013, 15:50

Personally, I don't like Scourges... so it's a bit of a hard choice to recommend either option. To me it's almost like asking should I take 5 or 10 Mandrakes.

To get to your actual question, it depends on how you envision fielding them. Certainly, I think that the sheer punch of the heat lance has a higher probability of doing damage. But as you've said yourself, the range is a big limitation.

The reason why I think it depends on how you're going to use them is based on if you are going deepstrike them or not. Deepstriking is an option I would strongly suggest and if you're going that route I believe it's better to go Heat Lance.

If you're not deepstriking, I guess haywire is ok but I have a couple of problems with the unit.
#1 - 18" is almost too short range and to get in range can lead to be getting charged or shot up.
#2 - Haywire shooting with say 4 guns is not nearly reliable enough. Most of those hits will glance and you'll need 3 of those shots to glance.

I look at it this way, either use means dead scourges so you might as well give yourself the best chance to take out something with the heat lances.
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Sathonyx
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PostSubject: Re: Heat Lance/Haywire Scourges   Heat Lance/Haywire Scourges I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 15 2013, 00:20

Huymix has some good points. But what he considers a negative with Haywire blasters "only glancing", is exactly the reason I went that way. I've only used them once in my 4 games, but took 2 units of 5 and both units had 2 haywire blasters each. They're not designed for outright vehicle kill, but in addion to other anti-tank to finish them off in hull points if you don't destroy the target immediately with your ravager or other anti-tank stuff. Haywire has 24" range, S4,AP4, which works well as 2 single shots with the 3-3shot shardcarbines of the unit as anti-infantry. The heat lance with S6/AP1 is equally deadly as anti-infantry, but for its melta effect to work you have to be closer (9" or less away). Then you STILL have to rely on a good dice roll for a vehicle kill. If you don't make it, you can pretty much write-off that Scourge unit. I'm not very lucky with dice, so prefer to chip away hull points at a distance. The DE inside me likes the longer sweating and suffering.
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AvInNebr
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PostSubject: Re: Heat Lance/Haywire Scourges   Heat Lance/Haywire Scourges I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 15 2013, 15:04

Thanks for the thoughts all ... and that guide linked above is a great resource!
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Heat Lance/Haywire Scourges   Heat Lance/Haywire Scourges I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 16 2013, 04:49

I used scourges alot and I find them to be very useful in larger games.
Below 1500 I don't think you can really take them, in my experience any way.

The trusty blaster is a good choice for them, giving them a 30 inch threat range of support fire for anti anything.
Heat lances - the worst choice in my opinion, I think reavers can get away with this but not scourges (again my opinion not gospel) even on a deep strike that 9 inch range of usefulness is brutal.
Splinter cannon - useful AI at a reasonable price nice not spectacular has some tactical advantages over a venom in some scenarios.
Haywire - clean up crew for damaged but not destroyed vehicles and that's generally pretty useful, although the other 3 guys tend to be nothing more the wound allocation slots or snap fire threats when you get charged
Dark lance - meh it cheap for a dark lance but you end up snap shooting if you move and unless they have flyers that you really need killed it tends to be a waste (a discounted waste but still a waste)

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pantofful
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PostSubject: Re: Heat Lance/Haywire Scourges   Heat Lance/Haywire Scourges I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 16 2013, 20:12

You knock the heatlance, and yes it has a short AT rank, but when I have run scourges it has been 2 5man units with 2 heatlances, and I often find that as often as I use a unit to tank hunt, I also find myself using the unit to counter high armor infantry,

so I have 9 poison shots, and 2 AP1 shots... it's worth the 2 points more than the haywire to have the expanded AI ability (at the same range as the carbines), and the max AT at close range... it makes the unit a dual-purpose threat. Just a different way of looking at it.
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AvInNebr
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PostSubject: Re: Heat Lance/Haywire Scourges   Heat Lance/Haywire Scourges I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 19 2013, 02:08

One thing that I came across elsewhere and wanted to see if this interpretation is correct ... but you first resolve the attack as you would any other and then roll another d6 to see what further effect it has. Thus if you're firing at AV10 and hit, you could then potentially roll a 6 to do an initial glance (anything else would bounce off) but then also roll a d6 to resolve the haywire. Is that correct? Obviously anything with an AV > 10 you couldn't initially glance so you'd just resolve the d6, but you could potentially have 2 wounds taken off with the Haywire Blaster?
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Sathonyx
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PostSubject: Re: Heat Lance/Haywire Scourges   Heat Lance/Haywire Scourges I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 19 2013, 02:36

I believe you're correct AvinNebr about 2 possible tank wounds if the armor value is 10 and you roll a 6 initially, but as you noted, ONLY if the AV is 10 where the initial glance would happen. I believe its rules state "resolve this hit first, THEN roll again"...where you get that other chart of 1= no effect, 2-5 =glance, 6 =penetrate. If our interpretation is correct, you could theoretically get a glance AND a glance, or a glance AND a penetrate with one shot and great rolls of 6. Hats off to both Seshiru and pantofful for giving you good points. I do like pantofful's point of 2 AP1 shots used in conjunction with the 9 shardcarbine (4+poison) shots. That could work well against that 5 Terminator unit I see so often in my regular opponents Space Wolves army.
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