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 BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts

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colinsherlow
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BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts Empty
PostSubject: BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts   BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 16:28

Haven't posted a report in a few months, so I thought I'd get 2013 off to a good start with a game against Space Wolves!

The Armies:

Black Buzzards (DE)

HQ
Archon, blaster, venom blade, shadow field

TROOPS
8 Warriors, blaster
Raider, NS
8 Warriors, blaster
Raider, NS
9 Warriors, blaster
Raider, NS
9 Warriors, blaster
Raider, NS

FAST ATTACK
9 Reavers, 3 blasters, arena champion, venom blade
9 Reavers, 3 blasters, arena champion, venom blade

HEAVY SUPPORT
Ravager, NS
Ravager, NS

Space Wolves (SW)

HQ
Rune priest, chooser of the slain, living lightning, murderous hurricane

ELITES
Lone wolf, terminator armour, chain fist, stormshield

TROOPS
9 grey hunters, 1 plasma gun
Rhino
10 grey hunters 2 plasma guns
Rhino
10 grey hunters 2 plasma guns
Rhino
10 grey hunters 2 plasma guns
Rhino
10 grey hunters 2 plasma guns
Rhino

HEAVY SUPPORT
5 long fangs, 4 missile launchers
5 long fangs, 4 missile launchers
5 long fangs, 4 missile launchers

Mission: Big Guns Never Tire (Scoring long fangs!)
Deployment: Dawn of War
Night Fight on first turn: No
First Turn: SW
Warlord Trait DE: Princeps of Deceit (Great I'm going second... sigh...useless)
Warlord Trait SW: Conqueror of Cities (Move through cover and Stealth (ruins) - 3+ cover save LF and GH?!)
Combat Drugs: Serpentine (+1WS)

Deployment:
BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts Depdf
My opponent spread out deploying his long fangs in three building with good vantage points. His rhinos deployed on the line ready to surge forward. As I was going second I deployed in the bottom left corner where the raiders could be kept out of range of two of the long fang squads thanks to their night shields. The reavers were kept in reserve.

Turn 1 (SW):
BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts Swt1
The Rhinos moved up, two of them popped smoke. The long fangs split fire at the two ravagers stunning one and failing to hurt the other due to cover. However, the rune priest destroyed the unharmed ravager when he unleashed his living lightning.

Turn 1 (DE):
BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts Det1z
Two out of four raiders were immobilised when they tried to advance through the ruins (Oh snap!). Their warriors disembarked. One squad ran to the objective. The four raiders either missed or failed to penetrate with their lances. The ravager couldn't fire as it was stunned. The Archon took out a rhino nonchalantly with his blaster killing two grey hunters in the explosion. The disembarked warriors fired into the grey hunters failing to kill any as did the warriors embarked on the last raider.

Turn 2 (SW):
BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts Swt2
The lone wolf deep-struck in and landed near the Archon's raider (Shadows Revenge later pointed out to me that SW terminator armour doesn't let them deepstrike!). One squad of grey hunters disembarked into a ruin. Living lightning shook one of the raiders. The central long fangs split their fire on the two raiders that weren’t already immobilised, but failed to damage either. The left long fangs split fire on the ravager and the Archon's raider glancing it but failing to damage the ravager. One grey hunter squad fired into the Archon's raider, destroying it and killing five of the passengers, the explosion killed two warrior from the adjacent squad. The second grey hunter squad fired into the shaken raider wrecking it with glances (thankfully their was no explosion). One rhino moved flat out to screen one of the grey hunter packs, the other rhino moved flat out to threaten the flank of the ruins the dark eldar were held up in. The lone wolf ran towards the Archon and his squad.

Turn 2 (DE):
BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts Det2d
Both reaver squads came on. The two immobilised raiders shot the flanking rhino failing to damage it. The ravager fired into the same rhino destroying it. The explosion killed three grey hunters. Two warrior squads rapid fired into the grey hunters killing another three. Another raider squad fires into the lone wolf failing to wound him. The archon and his squad fired at the wolf but also failed to do anything. One of the reaver squads bladvaned the flanking grey hunters wiping them out and earning them a pain token. The other reavers bladevane the lone wolf only just managing to kill him, also earning them a pain token.

Turn 3 (SW):
BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts Swt3
The rune priest's rhino reversed and the grey hunters disembarked to rapid, fire the reavers killing three, the priest also unleashed a murderous huricane but it failed to kill any reavers. All three long fangs fired into the same reavers killing two. One of the grey hunter packs at the bottom moved forward and rapid fired into one of the warriors squads who went to ground, two warriors were killed. The other grey hunter squad moved forward and rapide fired into the other warriors, who also went to ground, killing a single warrior. The rhino moved flat out to screen the exposed hunters.

Turn 3 (DE):
BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts Det3k
The two immobilised raiders fired at the rhino shielding the marines glancing it twice. The ravager fired at the same rhino destroying it, despite a 5" explosion no grey hunters were killed. The small squad of warriors moved forward and fired into the exposed grey hunters their blaster killing one. The archon left his squad and joined the warriors next to them, and fired into the grey hunters with the rest of his squad killed two more. The two warrior squads that had gone to ground snap-fired into the a grey hunter squad, amazingly killing two (most of the warriors were rapid firing). The larger reaver squad closed in rapid fired at the rune priest squads killing five, they then charged, hammer of wrath killing a grey hunter. The wolf priest challenges the arena champion, who accepted, the reavers proceeded to wipe the rest of the squad, the arena champion inflicted one wound on the priest, who in turn failed to kill the champion. The other reavers had lined up to charge the run priest and his grey hunters, but seeing after seeing how successful the shooting of the other reavers had been they decided to bladevane the far left long fangs, killing two.

Turn 4 (SW):
BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts Swt4m
The long fangs on the left fired at the ravager, hoping to get a VP(big guns never tire) but failed to damage it. The central long fangs couldn't draw line of sight to the leftmost reavers as the larger reaver squad in combat was blocking their view, so they fired frag missiles at the warriors near the DE objective, the warriors went to ground, two died. The far right long fang squad was just in range of the nearest warrior squad on the objective so fired a salvo of frag missiles, the warriors went to ground, killing three. The small grey hunter squad moved forward into the crater and rapid fired the Archon's warrior squad killing two. The larger grey hunter squad also moved up and fired onto the Arhcon's squad who stubbornly refused to go to ground killing three. The grey hunters in the right most rhino disembarked and spread out in the ruins on the right to secure and block the right most objective. The arena champion killed the rune priest (the reavers were now fearless!).

Turn 4 (DE):
BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts Det4
The two immobilised Raiders fired at the rhino in the crater killing one (search lights are bad!). The small reaver squad fired at the leftmost long fangs killing two and charging the survivor, however the combat was a draw with both sides failing to wound. The two pinned warriors snapfired into the grey hunters harmlessly. The remaining warriors and Archon fired into the smaller grey hunter squad killing two. The ravager fired at the small grey hunter squad in the crater killing one. The large reaver squad who had consolidated 4" towards the grey hunters, flew through the ruins towards them and rapid fired killing two. They then declared a multi charge on both grey hunter squads. Overwatch didn't do any damage, hammer of wrath hits killed a grey hunter. The grey hunters then fought back killing a reaver. The reavers then all attacked at I1 killing a grey hunter (charging through cover).

Turn 5 (SW):
BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts Swt5
Night fight prevented the long fangs from being in range of anything, and the rhino was two far away to light anything up with it's searchlights. The long fangs on the top right objective spread out to secure it. In combat the smaller reaver squad killed the last long fang they were in combat with. The larger reaver squad killed three grey hunters and won combat, however ATSKNF ensured the hunters wouldn't be going anywhere.

Turn 5 (DE):
BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts Det5
The smaller reaver squad bladevaned the long fangs on the right killing two and denying the objective, they also secured line breaker. The warriors spread out to ensure that the objective could not be contested. The ravager moved flat out to capture the top left objective (scoring ravager go!). In assault the large reaver squad killed the last two grey hunters and used their consolidate move to spread out. The game ended. DE Victory!

DE VPs: 9 (Slay the warlord, line breaker, 2 objectives, 1 long fang squad killed) SW VPs: 5 (first blood, 1 ravager killed, 1 objective)

Overview

That was a close game, with a really bad start: going second, no night fight, great warlord power for my opponent and two of my raiders getting immobilised on my first turn. Thankfully the scoring ravager gave me a chance and the denying reavers transformed a draw into a win. Night fight and the game ending on turn 5 helped, although I believe I had the upper hand by that point. I was also very lucky taking out the lone wolf, he could have caused some serious problems if he had reached my line.

This was a great game in term demonstrating how powerful large squads of reavers and how they can really snowball with an early pain token thanks to their mobility and versatility. I might say this all the time, but their ability to support your army anywhere, reliably get line breaker and deny objectives just make them worth their weight in gold.

Night shields were handy on the first turn as they helped me minimise the long fangs shooting, they also helped me keep the scoring ravager alive for the rest of the game. I'm still not sure they are worth the investment in hybrid armies, however keeping the reavers in reserve really helped minimise this problem. I'm still on the fence though.

Deploying skimmers in ruins although granting a 4+ cover save is risky business, I'll need to plan my deployment to take this into account in future.

I'm not too sure about warriors, they really suffer when they have to ditch their transport and can get pushed out of cover/ruins easily by assault, especially when you have a unit like grey hunters suppressing you heavily with bolter fire unit they are in reliable assault range. This mean't my reavers had to run back to save the day and I'm not sure that was a good thing. That being said warriors can still put out decent dakka.

Prior to the game I had a conversation in The Dark City chat about gunboat warriors and how to kit them out. Splinter racks are great, but sometimes your raiders just fall to pieces, and that's where and the splinter cannon really shines as it lets the warriors still be effective despite losing their transports. So definitely a must for me if I decide to run squads of ten, and also something I would prioritise over splinter racks.

The blaster archon did fine, killing four marines and a rhino over the course of the game (95pts worth) and staying alive. Although I probably should have used his Shadow field to absorb some bolter fire now and then.

Another thing that this game made apparent is how despite what the internet says as far as I'm concerned "mech" isn't dead. Rhino's are fantastic now that they can move 18" when going flat out, block line of sight, give you mobile cover, tank shock, have two fire points for your plasma guns, and search lights. Search lights are fantastic and they come with rhinos standard, and really help make night fight a non issue for imperial armies. Without the rhinos I would have been able to run circles around the grey hunters once the fangs had been taken care of, but with them the space wolves were really able to take the fight to me and pin me in a corner. I hear a lot of people complaining that rhino's are an easy first blood, so what? Dark Eldar deal with losing first blood because of raiders all the time! Tell me why a solid armies like Space Wolves can't? Rhinos are just as amazing as they have always been, even more so for a short range counter assault based army like space wolves. So no slacking on dark light weapons for me any time soon.

As usual thanks to everyone in TDC chat for advice and tips. Smile

Hope you enjoyed the report! Smile

_________________
Latest Report: BR4: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Imperial Knights - 1250pts
Pragmatic Realspace Raider Series


“Even the Black Buzzards thought highly of him, and those maniacs were renowned for hating everyone.” - Tantalus, by Braden Campbell


Last edited by Mushkilla on Sun Jan 13 2013, 07:12; edited 2 times in total
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Squierboy
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BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts Empty
PostSubject: Re: BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts   BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 19:18

Great report as ever!

I agree that some of the warrior squads could have been upgraded to 10-strong and given a cannon to help with taking out all those power armoured chumps (65 of them! Gulp!). For me, the choice is between the splinter racks and the blaster i.e. go all-out AI, or keep an AT weapon just in case. As fo the choice of warirors over other troops, I think they do ok defensively. Sure they can't fight in an assault, but they can overwatch quite well (especially if they have a SC that can fire 6 times) and put out their own suppressive fire and still be effective even when pinned in the corner of the board.

I was a bit concerned after turn one, especially given the shooting-gallery terrain set up (I assume that the stuff in the middle of the board is not LOS blocking), but the reavers saved the day again! They're really remarkably resilient once they pick up a pain token, and can really dish it out too. They were like the cavalry riding in at the last minute & saving the day.

Pleased the shooty Archon did well, he should have been the one to bulls-eye the cheeky lone-wolf! I am considering one wihout a shadowfield to keep him ultra-cheap. You mentioned not taking any hits on him, and I think you could have absorbed the wounds from the exploding raider & saved his squad that way. Hmm, maybe I should re-think not taking one now!

Regarding useless warlord powers, why can't GW just write 6 for each codex and stick it in an FAQ? Is that so hard? That's what they're going to do as they update each codex anyway. CSM now get consistently useful powers, with only the infiltrate one being a little too good.

Anyway, well played and won vs a tough looking marine-spam list!

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts   BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 19:41

@Squierboy wrote:
Great report as ever!

Thanks!

@Squierboy wrote:
I agree that some of the warrior squads could have been upgraded to 10-strong and given a cannon to help with taking out all those power armoured chumps (65 of them! Gulp!).

The original reason for less than 10 warriors per squad was so that the archon could jump ship if need be, I just didn't expect my whole fleet to get scuppered at port. Something i'm going to have to reconsider.

@Squierboy wrote:
Sure they can't fight in an assault, but they can overwatch quite well (especially if they have a SC that can fire 6 times) and put out their own suppressive fire and still be effective even when pinned in the corner of the board.

The thing I noticed this game was how easy it is to suppress T3 5+ save troops, as the +2 to cover saves from going to ground in area terrain is really tempting, and bolters just poor out wounds against T3. Combined with S4 vehicle explosions and you seem to want to get your warriors into a good firing position and out of their raider as soon as possible (people don't shoot empty raiders). The cannon feels a lot more vital this edition due to it's range and volume of shots like you said.

@Squierboy wrote:

I was a bit concerned after turn one, especially given the shooting-gallery terrain set up (I assume that the stuff in the middle of the board is not LOS blocking), but the reavers saved the day again! They're really remarkably resilient once they pick up a pain token, and can really dish it out too. They were like the cavalry riding in at the last minute & saving the day.

Yeah, there was hardly any LOS blocking terrain but lots of ruins! As for the reavers i'm starting to be convince running them from reserve is the way to go, they can just threaten so much of the board, and it makes getting that first pain token easy. That being said the lack of plasma grenades hurts them (although hammer of wrath helps), in 5th edition the rules for striking at I1 were phrased differently so reavers were not affected, still they pulled through just fine this game.

@Squierboy wrote:

Pleased the shooty Archon did well, he should have been the one to bulls-eye the cheeky lone-wolf! I am considering one wihout a shadowfield to keep him ultra-cheap. You mentioned not taking any hits on him, and I think you could have absorbed the wounds from the exploding raider & saved his squad that way. Hmm, maybe I should re-think not taking one now!

I think you need to judge how threatened he is, if you don't think he will see assault then just use the field to take some bolter fire/explosion wounds now and then, you get more out of him that way. At least that's what this game showed me.

@Squierboy wrote:

Regarding useless warlord powers, why can't GW just write 6 for each codex and stick it in an FAQ? Is that so hard? That's what they're going to do as they update each codex anyway. CSM now get consistently useful powers, with only the infiltrate one being a little too good.

Tell me about it!

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Latest Report: BR4: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Imperial Knights - 1250pts
Pragmatic Realspace Raider Series


“Even the Black Buzzards thought highly of him, and those maniacs were renowned for hating everyone.” - Tantalus, by Braden Campbell
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Squierboy
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PostSubject: Re: BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts   BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 13 2013, 22:34

@Mushkilla wrote:
The thing I noticed this game was how easy it is to suppress T3 5+ save troops, as the +2 to cover saves from going to ground in area terrain is really tempting, and bolters just poor out wounds against T3. Combined with S4 vehicle explosions and you seem to want to get your warriors into a good firing position and out of their raider as soon as possible (people don't shoot empty raiders). The cannon feels a lot more vital this edition due to it's range and volume of shots like you said.

I think you hit on a couple of big problems for a dark eldar player in 6th.

All our troops are too easy to kill/suppress, even the relatively tough wracks. I recall you used fewer troops in your earlier reports (27 reavers probably had something to do with that!), but were still able to win. So maybe the answer is to take as few troops as possible?!

The other thing is whether or not to keep the warriors embarked on our transports. They can't be suppressed by small arms fire on a raider or venom, so I would say keep them aboard for as long as you dare! It keeps our mobility which is really important in preventing us from being cornered and pinned down. But I can appreciate there are times when disembarking early (or not embarking at all) is the way to go.

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts   BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2013, 00:47

this is a cool way to do a battle report! how did you do all that with the pics?

I like this very much

I also 100% agree with you about rhinos.
I've been saying that from the start. they still have there place. they are faster and make better awesome cover for your army

I love DE kabalite warriors.
I do like 10 warrios with a cannon in a raider. I just find it too risky because blowing up the raider is such a tempting and easy target when filled with warriors. they get 2 birds with 1 stone when it explodes (St4 explodes hurts). I like to either get out early or deploy seperatly.
I have moved more towards venoms lately with 5 warriors with or without blasters. I oftain deploy the venoms and keep the warriors in reserve.
venoms also let you shoot the hell out of long fangs at the back end which is always nice.

also I LOVE our jetbikes. jetbike and beast packs are great. beastpacks allow you to controll mid field (which keeps rapid firing marines our of your kabalite warriors face, and the reavers are fast enough to support your lines where needed. have you played with bike and beasts together? I think you might like that very much :-)

Merged your posts. Please use the edit button in future. Thanks. Wink - Mush

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts   BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2013, 08:49

@Squierboy wrote:
All our troops are too easy to kill/suppress, even the relatively tough wracks. I recall you used fewer troops in your earlier reports (27 reavers probably had something to do with that!), but were still able to win. So maybe the answer is to take as few troops as possible?!

I'm not sure, it's very risky, and good players can punish you for it. That being said in this game I had four troop choices desperately trying to hold one objective. So maybe it is the way forward, that being said we have good troops, well they are good at killing things, doesn't help that marines are now 14 points (dark angel codex), don't get me started on paying 5pts more for grenades +1T +1S -1I, 3+ armour, ATSKNF, combat squads, pistols, and Grim resolve. I guess the idea is if you play warriors right you don't need +1T +1S 3+ armour or ATSKNF and as a result you save 5 points per guy and they come with night vision. The question is is how do we do this?

@Squierboy wrote:

The other thing is whether or not to keep the warriors embarked on our transports. They can't be suppressed by small arms fire on a raider or venom, so I would say keep them aboard for as long as you dare! It keeps our mobility which is really important in preventing us from being cornered and pinned down. But I can appreciate there are times when disembarking early (or not embarking at all) is the way to go.

After this game I'm looking into experimenting with keeping warriors out of raiders. but keeping the raider within 6" so the warriors can move 6" back embark and then the raider can move 6" and they can still fire. Basically use the raiders to get into a good firing position and then disembark into cover, whilst keeping the raider around as an evacuation plan. The idea being that your opponent will ignore the empty raider in favour of shooting something else. Whether it plays out that way I'll have to wait and see.

@colinsherlow wrote:
this is a cool way to do a battle report! how did you do all that with the pics?

Thanks, I used vassel. But normally I use Battle Chronicler, which is a lot less fiddly and easy to use as you can go back and edit things (the only reason I'm using vassel at the moment is I'm on my linux laptop). Here's a tutorial for battle chronicler if you are interested:

Battle Chronicler Tutorial

@colinsherlow wrote:
have you played with bike and beasts together? I think you might like that very much :-)

I haven't got round to it, but it is definitely something I plan on exploring at some point. Right now my real focus is on our troops.

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Latest Report: BR4: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Imperial Knights - 1250pts
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts   BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2013, 17:01

Ok, first off SW termies cant deepstrike without the aid of a drop pod... guess someone needs to brush up on their space puppies Razz

Secondly, Im supprised he didnt A: asault you more, and B: bring those other squad holding that objective on the right side of the screen around. He oculd of either added more fire against the reavers (meaning he would hold the objective in his base longer) or towards your firebase, hoping to punch enough of a hole to cap it.

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Squierboy
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PostSubject: Re: BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts   BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2013, 20:08

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
Secondly, Im supprised he didnt A: asault you more, and B: bring those other squad holding that objective on the right side of the screen around. He oculd of either added more fire against the reavers (meaning he would hold the objective in his base longer) or towards your firebase, hoping to punch enough of a hole to cap it.

I agree, the SW should either have backed off completely and camped the rest of the objectives once it was clear the warriors were going nowhere (and concentrated on the reavers), or gone all out to attack the warriors. Maybe he was worried about assaulting the archon. He also left plenty of juicy targets for bladevaning, but maybe that was unavoidable.

@Mushkilla wrote:
I'm not sure, it's very risky, and good players can punish you for it. That being said in this game I had four troop choices desperately trying to hold one objective. So maybe it is the way forward, that being said we have good troops, well they are good at killing things, doesn't help that marines are now 14 points (dark angel codex), don't get me started on paying 5pts more for grenades +1T +1S -1I, 3+ armour, ATSKNF, combat squads, pistols, and Grim resolve. I guess the idea is if you play warriors right you don't need +1T +1S 3+ armour or ATSKNF and as a result you save 5 points per guy and they come with night vision. The question is is how do we do this?

I haven't read the new DA codex....14 points? Tac marines are 16pts in the generic codex, and even cheapo CSM are only one point less & don't get ATSKNF & grim resolve (whatever that is). But I suppose such an outcome is expected given how marine codexes have been developing recently. Anyway, not to go off topic & discuss the new boys on the block here, I think your last comment regarding warriors can be read with a certain amount of sarcasm?! Yeah, we don't need decent armour or toughness or to never run off - we can see in the dark! Ha-haa!

But seriously, perhaps a new eldar codex will give us some troops worth allying in? I know that may be a while yet though so what to do in the meantime? I suppose we use the full offensive power of the Dark Eldar to force even good players to be distracted from blowing away our vulnerable troops, and as you mentioned before, going to ground and cowering behind a good cover save (or the wreckage of their transport) once the going gets tough. As you say, given the opportunity our troops can cause lots of damage if ignored.

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Agahnim
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PostSubject: Re: BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts   BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2013, 21:31

Sorry, I forgot about TDC, thanks for the jolt back to unreality.

what was the archon's job? how many points was that 3-wound blaster?
the points spent on night shields: 60
the points spent on arena champions: 30
That's a squad of 10 Warriors.
Lucky they didn't have flyers, you'd be boned.

their Lone wolf does what?
plasma and rhino spam? unimpressed. wasted movement, not enough firepower.
no dynamic threats
folds to properly applied CC or jetbikes (lol who has those?)
Lucky you didn't have flyers, they'd be boned.

Quote :
Mission: Big Guns Never Tire (Scoring long fangs!)
Ugh, how mad were you? I don't envy you.

Princeps when going second is... yeah, there's a reason Lady Malys isn't more popular.

His deployment was perfect, yours... why weren't the Ravagers behind? Better to start some warriors in reserve and screen with the Raiders.

Oh, and by the way for all of the idiots still defending Night Shields, KABOOM! Pictures don't lie, there's an extra 20 points of worthless in the second picture. Living lightning killed one anyway, and if you can't shoot a Ravager turn 1 that's pretty much half their value down the drain right there.

Quote :
Two out of four raiders were immobilized when they tried to advance through the ruins (Oh snap!).
Well that sucks, that was some unlucky rolling, but had you spread out a little more and covered the Ravagers, you could have pivoted them and any unharmed Raiders (assuming one empty raider exploded and one empty raider stunned) and then punished that aggressive play by those Rhinos near your flank. There's no need to start on the board or embarked if you don't have to, fight the enemy off and grab objectives late game. Let Marines fight their way onto objectives and hold them, you can take your time reclaiming them with all the firepower.

As a result, only killing a rhino and 2 marines was a pretty average result from the remaining lances, it's not statistically anomalous. Yeah, they cheat there with the Lone Wolf, but it's irrelevant, they should've kept going at your Ravager. Moving the Rhinos in was a horrible mistake on their part, they had you boxed in a corner with no way out. Sacrificing the Lone Wolf and holding the renaming objectives was the smarter play. You did well to punish them with the Reavers, they overextended and got their ass handed to them at 200mph. Or however fast Reavers fly, I bet you'd know something like this.

Turn 3, this guy/gal makes the poorest choices with those Long Fangs. Splitting fire and underestimating the shots needed to finish off your vehicles, and now firing at the Reavers? Lol, I hope they at least shot frags.

Your thoughts on mech and first blood are spot on. I think you're getting terrible advice about gunboating; unless a Raider is immobilized or destroyed, it can move 12". You want to use that 12" to move within 8" of a scoring unit that hasn't moved yet that turn (6" movement + 2" embark) while within 17-18" of the target objective. Next turn, the Raider moves 6", drops off the passengers another 6", and they run d6" to the objective, needing one model within 3". So assuming you've shot everything off that objective (which is the advantage of going 2nd and late game night fight, they can't retaliate), and there's a Raider within 20", that unit can grab an objective next turn 18" away from wherever that Raider stops, assuming you roll a 3+ on your run roll.

There is NO reason to gunboat, you want to maximize the saturation of targets for the enemy to shoot at, you want to avoid vehicle explosions, and you want to be doing as much damage as possible for the first half of the game. Marines take and hold objectives, Dark Eldar will die doing that. Shoot/charge them off and then climb over the carcasses at the last minute, this what Eldar/Dark Eldar have always done well, and now even Necrons play that way. Gunboating is a strong, valid and viable strategy... for Space Marines.

As for my overall thoughts on the game? I think you both gimped yourselves with your lists, and that if you brought 3x either flyer or they brought allies things would've been very different. I think they squandered a fantastic mission/warlord trait combo and a perfect 1st deployment with crap tactics, and while you failed to refused flank correctly (even if you were forced to bring Night Shields... why didn't you pre-measure 42"?!?) you capitalized on every blunder they made. What really decided the game was target priority - you killed everything you started shooting at, they left stuff alive and pointed their Long Fangs all over the place - never enough in the right spot.
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts   BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2013, 21:38

I use eldar quite a lot now as allies. Seer with cheap power for divination guide. 2x3 guardian bikes and 3 scatter laser war walkers. These units have been gold.

Also I was inspired after reading your battle report and so posted an army list I think could that could be fun on here.

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PostSubject: Re: BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts   BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 15 2013, 10:50

Wow lots of feedback!

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
Secondly, Im supprised he didnt A: asault you more

If I remember right on turn 3 his hunters were 9-10" away and the charge was through terrain, so maybe he thought the risk was too high, and thought rapid firing would at least suppress the warriors. That being said a good charge roll might have won him the game.

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
B: bring those other squad holding that objective on the right side of the screen around.

This bothered me too, as a dark eldar player I felt he should have brought that squad along the flank and gone for the kill. On the other hand he might have kept them there in order to dissuade me from going after the right most longfangs.

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
He oculd of either added more fire against the reavers (meaning he would hold the objective in his base longer) or towards your firebase, hoping to punch enough of a hole to cap it.

Looking over the report again, I think the space wolf player was being indecisive and hesitant and that cost him. The initial push was good and killed most of my mobility and really pinned me in, however he hesitated to commit that other grey hunter squad and that cost him. On the other hand had he committed that squad my reavers would have had more free rein. A bit of a bind. Maybe he should have played less aggressively and focused on holding his two home objectives?

@Squierboy wrote:
He also left plenty of juicy targets for bladevaning, but maybe that was unavoidable.

I like the fact that keeping the reavers in reserve forces this dilemma, either spread out and be vulnerable to being harassed and eaten piece by piece. Or turtle up defensively and sacrifice their mobility and objectives.

@Squierboy wrote:
I suppose we use the full offensive power of the Dark Eldar to force even good players to be distracted from blowing away our vulnerable troops

I think that's the best thing for us to do. But how to do it is the hard part.

@Agahnim wrote:
Sorry, I forgot about TDC, thanks for the jolt back to unreality.

You missed out on some good banter in the tactics section, there were quite a few topics that could have done with your input.

@Agahnim wrote:
the points spent on arena champions: 30

I'm going to disagree with this. In my experience the boost to leadership 9 is worth the cost, reavers fall back 3d6" so a bad roll can lose you the whole squad, not to mention as they are a denial unit people try to force them to roll a lot of leadership tests with shooting and tank shock. The venom blade gives them that little bit of extra punch for overpowering tactical squads and devastators. In my opinion when a unit costs 240+ points it's well worth investing 10pts to almost halve their chances of failing leadership tests.

@Agahnim wrote:
His deployment was perfect, yours... why weren't the Ravagers behind? Better t start some warriors in reserve and screen with the Raiders.

To be honest, my raider/ravager deployment is pretty terrible as I have only recently switched to using ravagers this edition, and before with 27 reavers I only had a few raiders. So it needs some work.

@Agahnim wrote:
Well that sucks, that was some unlucky rolling, but had you spread out a little more and covered the Ravagers, you could have pivoted them and any unharmed Raiders (assuming one empty raider exploded and one empty raider stunned) and then punished that aggressive play by those Rhinos near your flank.

Interestingly I felt the nightshields actually forced me to clump in-order to get as many raiders out of range as possible. Next time I will definitely leaver more space.

@Agahnim wrote:
You did well to punish them with the Reavers, they overextended and got their ass handed to them at 200mph. Or however fast Reavers fly, I bet you'd know something like this.

258 K/F page 3 of the old DE codex. Wink

@Agahnim wrote:
Turn 3, this guy/gal makes the poorest choices with those Long Fangs. Splitting fire and underestimating the shots needed to finish off your vehicles, and now firing at the Reavers? Lol, I hope they at least shot frags.

He did shoot frag, but that's what I have noticed is reavers make people panic. I think he was terrified that they would shut down his long fangs, which they did anyway.

@Agahnim wrote:
You want to use that 12" to move within 8" of a scoring unit that hasn't moved yet that turn (6" movement + 2" embark) while within 17-18" of the target objective. Next turn, the Raider moves 6", drops off the passengers another 6", and they run d6" to the objective, needing one model within 3". So assuming you've shot everything off that objective (which is the advantage of going 2nd and late game night fight, they can't retaliate), and there's a Raider within 20", that unit can grab an objective next turn 18" away from wherever that Raider stops, assuming you roll a 3+ on your run roll.


That's a fantastic trick, that gives the unit a nice 30" move over two turns (8"+6" raider length+6"raider move+6" disembark+4" run)! Also means warriors get some extra use out of fleet (re-rolling run dice). If you keep the raider within 8" before it moves you could potentially get 42", hell even 60" if you move flat out. That's some serious mobility.

@Agahnim wrote:
There is NO reason to gunboat, you want to maximize the saturation of targets for the enemy to shoot at, you want to avoid vehicle explosions, and you want to be doing as much damage as possible for the first half of the game.

This is what I have started to realise after this game. Keep your warriors out of the raiders, but keep the raiders near by for support and mobility.

@Agahnim wrote:
I think they squandered a fantastic mission/warlord trait combo and a perfect 1st deployment with crap tactics

I'm interested to hear what you would have done as the space wolf player, so that I'm ready for whatever he will do next time.

@Agahnim wrote:
while you failed to refused flank correctly (even if you were forced to bring Night Shields... why didn't you pre-measure 42"?!?)

I did pre-measure 42", but there was no way to avoid all of the long fangs, the best I could manage was stopping two squads from firing. As for later turns, I wanted the warriors in range, again I think this goes back to disembarking and not keeping your warriors in transports. Lesson learned.

Thanks for the thorough post Agahnim, very insightful as always. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts   BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 15 2013, 23:41

Great report Mushkilla, thanks for sharing! A splendid reversal - after that first turn I thought you were gone for all money. It helped that the Space Wolf player didn't press his advantage, but Reavers helped more!

Quote :
Mushkilla wrote:

Quote :
Agahnim wrote:
the points spent on arena champions: 30

I'm going to disagree with this. In my experience the boost to leadership 9 is worth the cost, reavers fall back 3d6" so a bad roll can lose you the whole squad, not to mention as they are a denial unit people try to force them to roll a lot of leadership tests with shooting and tank shock. The venom blade gives them that little bit of extra punch for overpowering tactical squads and devastators. In my opinion when a unit costs 240+ points it's well worth investing 10pts to almost halve their chances of failing leadership tests.

The jump from Ld 8 to Ld 9 is a 2/13ths improvement (~15.3%) in passing Ld tests. So theoretically a 10 point champion upgrade is worthwhile in any squad over 65 points (2/13 x 65 = 10), assuming that the goal of the upgrade is to improve Ld. Clearly this will not always be the case; sometimes the main goal will be to have more guns, boots, whatever rather than keeping them around. But for important units the Ld boost can be very useful.

And on a completely different note, if only Malys and the Princeps redeployed after the roll to Seize the Initiative, they would be great. Imagine the Vect/Malys power couple... fluffy if you set your games a few hundred years ago Very Happy Oh well, I will continue wishing Crying or Very sad
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts   BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 16 2013, 08:21

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
Great report Mushkilla, thanks for sharing! A splendid reversal - after that first turn I thought you were gone for all money. It helped that the Space Wolf player didn't press his advantage, but Reavers helped more!

Thanks, I think he mistook the reavers for squirrels and that distracted him.

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
The jump from Ld 8 to Ld 9 is a 2/13ths improvement (~15.3%) in passing Ld tests.

I look at it the same way I look at armour saves. You have twice the chance (or 100% more) of failing a 3+ save than you do a 2+ save. With LD8 you have a 27.8% chance of failing, and with LD9 you have a 16.7% chance of failing, so you have 1.68 the chance (or 68% more) of failling a LD8 test than a LD9 test.

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
And on a completely different note, if only Malys and the Princeps redeployed after the roll to Seize the Initiative, they would be great. Imagine the Vect/Malys power couple... fluffy if you set your games a few hundred years ago Very Happy Oh well, I will continue wishing Crying or Very sad

That would be hilarious! Smile

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Skari
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PostSubject: Re: BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts   BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 16 2013, 12:18

VEry good there Mush. Loved the report as always. I am very happy to see you put the reavers in reserve so they dont run away from you.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts   BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 16 2013, 13:16

@Skari wrote:
VEry good there Mush. Loved the report as always. I am very happy to see you put the reavers in reserve so they dont run away from you.

Thanks Skari (I have been stalking ScaredCast now and then, I liked the what kind of player are you episodes).

I think running them in reserve is just so much safer and makes them hit harder when they come on, especially if you go second. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts   BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 19 2013, 22:18

Quote :
blah blah blah math

What you're missing is you're looking only at the unit of Reavers to justify the Arena champ, and not the rest of the list.

I don't question the accuracy of your math, I deny its validity and relevance. Unless the Arena Champ made you Fearless, the improvement pales in significance to taking more models and more guns.
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PostSubject: Re: BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts   BR17: The Black Buzzards VS Space Wolves - 1500pts I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 20 2013, 12:24

@Agahnim wrote:
Quote :
blah blah blah math

What you're missing is you're looking only at the unit of Reavers to justify the Arena champ, and not the rest of the list.

I don't question the accuracy of your math, I deny its validity and relevance. Unless the Arena Champ made you Fearless, the improvement pales in significance to taking more models and more guns.

My train of thought was a little different. You are right I wasn't looking at the rest of list, However I wasn't looking at the reavers to justify the champion either. I was looking at the goal I wanted to achieve.

I wanted to be able to win objective missions, to do this I decided I needed a fast denial unit that could hunt backfield troops, and claim line breaker. Reavers were a natural choice. The unit needed the ability to adapt to my opponents battle plans and troop movements, as well as needing to survive until the end of the engagement. Reserve was the answer, as starting the unit on the board made it vulnerable to heavy casualties early on or potential rout due to a bad moral test, not to mention reserve enabling the unit to threaten any part of the board. Next the goal was to make the unit as survivable as possible, getting an early pain token would help accomplish this, in order to get the pain token the unit needed to be big so that it could reliably finish off depleted enemy units. The larger unit size tied in nicely with making the unit more survivable as well as increasing the efficiency of pain tokens. I had to consider that a denial/line breaker unit would be subject to tank shock and heavy shooting to prevent them from accomplishing their goal, and therefore be prone to moral checks that would make the difference between victory and defeat. It also became apparent that a large unit coming in form reserve would already be losing some turns of combat, and a failed moral check would lead to further lost turns, which would be very costly. Finally the unit needed the ability to overpower backfield units in assault if need be.

Considering all the above and my ultimate goals to ensure line breaker, denial of objectives and to reliably hunt backfield units, the arena champion seemed a sensible choice and would contribute more to achieving said goals than three additional warriors.

Although you could argue though that my initial premiss was flawed and the wrong approach to winning an objective mission.

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