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 Warrior/Trueborn loads in Venoms - Thoughts?

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AvInNebr
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PostSubject: Warrior/Trueborn loads in Venoms - Thoughts?   Warrior/Trueborn loads in Venoms - Thoughts? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 15:45

Hello all. I'm playing with a 1500 point list and I'm trying to decide how I want to fill my warrior/trueborn venoms. I would love to get thoughts from everyone...

As is I have about 210 points to play with here (not counting the venoms which I paid for already)...

First thought ...

2 5-man Trueborn squads, each with 2 blasters and 3 shardcarbines. This is 210 points right on and gives me some AT ability in each unit and AI as well (and the blasters aren't lost). I have also considered saving the Shardcarbine points and leaving them with splinter rifles and either using that 30 points elsewhere or using that 30 to make each group with 3 blasters and 2 splinter rifles.

Second thought ... Don't split the blasters and run those same two squads but put the 4 blasters in one venom, 5 shardcarbines in the other. This doesn't let me split targets with the blasters but one can go AT and one AI. This also leaves me with 5 points to play with.

Third thought ... One Trueborn (5 man) with 4 Blasters and then put regular warriors in the other venom with 1 blaster. This gives me another scoring unit and a blaster in the 2nd venom. If I'm just going with shardcarbines in the 2nd venom as in thought 2 then this saves points and provides a scoring unit that isn't any worse at shooting. This also gives me 30 points to play with elsewhere if I decide to go this route.

As for the rest of the list I have an archon and a succubus (in this list anyway ... I wanted to try each of them out as I have been running Haemy's instead), a 10 man warrior gunboat, 9 wyches, 4 incubi, a scourge squad, and a razorwing with transports for those where available. I would like to get some ravagers but have none at this point. I can be more detailed with those upgrades if anyone cares for them...

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AvInNebr
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PostSubject: Re: Warrior/Trueborn loads in Venoms - Thoughts?   Warrior/Trueborn loads in Venoms - Thoughts? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 15:48

Noticed I forgot the 4th thought ... having 2 5man warrior squads with a blaster each. That gives me 2 scoring squads but reduces my AT shots in the process. However it does give me 90 points to play with also. (That 90 points and the points saved on the Razorwing would give me two ravagers if I only had the models. Really need to make that investment. Sad )
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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: Warrior/Trueborn loads in Venoms - Thoughts?   Warrior/Trueborn loads in Venoms - Thoughts? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 16:24

Ravagers are always awesome and would be my pick any time but since you don't have them at the moment lets leave that option off the table. Personally I'd go with 4x Blaster Trueborn (don't bother with the 5th man as he'd be pretty useless. Better to save the points for something else) and the 5 man warrior squad with blaster. I'm not a fan of paying for mixed weaponry (so the Shardcarbines + Blasters squads are right out with me) and frankly I'm not a fan of the 5 shardcarbine build either (I guess I just don't like Shardcarbines in general. They're too short range for not enough impact IMO). If you want an anti-infantry trueborn squad I'd recommend 3 Trueborn with 2 Splinter Cannons. Still gives you plenty of shots but at longer range so they match up better with their venom and can hang back out of range of some of the shooting.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Warrior/Trueborn loads in Venoms - Thoughts?   Warrior/Trueborn loads in Venoms - Thoughts? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 16:53

This is dredging close to 'army list' discussion, so I'm just going to focus on the base question of 'Trueborn loadouts in Venoms' and expound on it in a general sense.

What Thor would do with 210 points and two Venoms he wants to put Trueborn into - 3x Trueborn w. 3x Blasters in each. Use the saved 40+ points elsewhere.

Let's discuss each of your thoughts and then also discuss mine.

1. 5 man squad w. 2 Blasters and 3 Shardcarbines - I hate this build, because this build feels like wasted points to me. If I'm paying for Blasters (which are more expensive then the expensive unit using them) then...why would I ever want to shoot them at infantry if vehicles were around? I probably wouldn't. At that point, all the points spent on the Shardcarbines are wasted. Conversely, if I did need to start shooting at infantry...Blasters are pretty good at killing infantry. They won't kill a *lot* of infantry, but they can kill strong infantry, and pretty much anything they hit and wound is dead as not much in the game can survive a Blaster hit due to Str 8.

2. 4 Blasters in one, 5 shardcarbines in other - I don't hate this build. Blaster Trueborn are good, and Shardcarbine Trueborn are okay, and at least this time there are not a lot of wasted points. I somewhat wonder what the purpose of the random extra guy in the Trueblaster squad is, and don't think you need him standing there with his rifle while the others fire their blasters, but overall I am fine with this.

3. 5 man squad w. 4 Blasters, 5 man Warrior squad w. one blaster - this build makes me wonder why you're thinking about Trueborn if you need troops. Look, either you have enough troops or you don't (glancing at your list, I am of the opinion that you don't...but you also have a lot of points burnt in HQs and some other stuff, but basically your list looks like a Space marine list using DE - which isn't going to end well).

4. 2x 5 man Warrior squads w. Blaster - I personally think this is what your list 'needs' In the general sense this is an excellent squad to put in a Venom.

Thor's suggestion - Considering your available points, and if you need Trueborn, my suggestion is the best as it gives you maximum tank killing potential while having no wasted points at all. The purpose of Blasters on Trueborn is to maximize their ability to buy a lot of Blasters - you spend points on them to get Blasters on them, and other points are silly. It's the same way if you want them to kill infantry with Shardcarbines, focus on getting bodies with Shardcarbines. Trueborn are really fragile, and if the enemy has an issue with them he will kill the squad quick, so have the squad focused on doing what you need it to do, since you may only get 1-2 shots with it before the enemy kills it. Also, 1-2 random extra T3 5+ save models are not going to make the unit harder to kill - save the points Wink

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AvInNebr
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PostSubject: Re: Warrior/Trueborn loads in Venoms - Thoughts?   Warrior/Trueborn loads in Venoms - Thoughts? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 17:36

Thanks for the thoughts, both of you. Murk, I hadn't considered the 3 man trueborn with 2 Splinter Cannon option before. Outside of 12" (where you'd want to be) you nearly double the shots of a 5 man warrior squad... You lose the scoring unit but get a lot of shots for basically equivalent points.

@Thor665 wrote:
This is dredging close to 'army list' discussion, so I'm just going to focus on the base question of 'Trueborn loadouts in Venoms' and expound on it in a general sense.

Yeah, I debated where to put it for a while...

@Thor665 wrote:

1. 5 man squad w. 2 Blasters and 3 Shardcarbines - I hate this build, because this build feels like wasted points to me. If I'm paying for Blasters (which are more expensive then the expensive unit using them) then...why would I ever want to shoot them at infantry if vehicles were around? I probably wouldn't. At that point, all the points spent on the Shardcarbines are wasted. Conversely, if I did need to start shooting at infantry...Blasters are pretty good at killing infantry. They won't kill a *lot* of infantry, but they can kill strong infantry, and pretty much anything they hit and wound is dead as not much in the game can survive a Blaster hit due to Str 8.

Good points about wasting the points. Scratching this thought as I want to be able to use whatever firepower I bring and if I'm shooting tanks I waste 3 guys with this build.

@Thor665 wrote:

2. 4 Blasters in one, 5 shardcarbines in other - I don't hate this build. Blaster Trueborn are good, and Shardcarbine Trueborn are okay, and at least this time there are not a lot of wasted points. I somewhat wonder what the purpose of the random extra guy in the Trueblaster squad is, and don't think you need him standing there with his rifle while the others fire their blasters, but overall I am fine with this.

The extra troop with his rifle is more a buffer for the others should the venom explode. If I lose a guy in the explosion I can retain my blasters and not force a leadership with a single death, though likely that last point is moot as in an explosion odds are good I'd lose 2+ guys on average anyway I imagine. The shardcarbines being able to put out 18 shots a turn are nice IMO, and while you have to be within 18" for that you have to be within 24" if you take regular troops with their rifles anyway (but they are scoring). It is a more expensive unit however. The Splinter cannon 3 man squad Murk suggested has a range advantage at the expense of a few shots and is similar in points to the warriors, though again not scoring...

@Thor665 wrote:

3. 5 man squad w. 4 Blasters, 5 man Warrior squad w. one blaster - this build makes me wonder why you're thinking about Trueborn if you need troops. Look, either you have enough troops or you don't (glancing at your list, I am of the opinion that you don't...but you also have a lot of points burnt in HQs and some other stuff, but basically your list looks like a Space marine list using DE - which isn't going to end well).

4. 2x 5 man Warrior squads w. Blaster - I personally think this is what your list 'needs' In the general sense this is an excellent squad to put in a Venom.

I do feel I need more troops, yes. I try to focus on removing my enemy more than objectives generally, but I do likely need 1 or 2 more troop choices so having one or both of them as warriors instead of trueborn is likely something I need to do even at the loss of a few blasters. My lack of Ravagers hurts when it comes to AT but I try to make up for that elsewhere until I can make that purchase...

I do have a lot of points in HQs for this list as well right now, however that is only intended to try out those two HQs as opposed to running Haemys as I have done previously. Likely after trying them out I'll end up going with one over the other or going back to Haemys (or a combination ... tend to play at 1500 mostly right now). Of course the HQs are minor in comparison to the glaring need of my army ... Ravagers. Razz

@Thor665 wrote:

Thor's suggestion - Considering your available points, and if you need Trueborn, my suggestion is the best as it gives you maximum tank killing potential while having no wasted points at all. The purpose of Blasters on Trueborn is to maximize their ability to buy a lot of Blasters - you spend points on them to get Blasters on them, and other points are silly. It's the same way if you want them to kill infantry with Shardcarbines, focus on getting bodies with Shardcarbines. Trueborn are really fragile, and if the enemy has an issue with them he will kill the squad quick, so have the squad focused on doing what you need it to do, since you may only get 1-2 shots with it before the enemy kills it. Also, 1-2 random extra T3 5+ save models are not going to make the unit harder to kill - save the points Wink

Any reason for the 3 trueborn instead of 4 trueborn? Is it simply that a fourth body in that squad you feel is wasted points as that 4th blaster isn't needed for most tank killing attempts?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Warrior/Trueborn loads in Venoms - Thoughts?   Warrior/Trueborn loads in Venoms - Thoughts? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 18:49

@AvInNebr wrote:
Any reason for the 3 trueborn instead of 4 trueborn? Is it simply that a fourth body in that squad you feel is wasted points as that 4th blaster isn't needed for most tank killing attempts?

Quick answer - 210 points couldn't afford 4 blasters in both.

Longer answer - 3 Trueblasters is almost as functional as 4, and is a massive point savings. I usually run 3 in my armies until I have such a surefit of points that I might as well toss some the Trueblasters way. Functionally each Blaster shooting at AV 12+ has a 22% chance for a penetrating hit. Now, probability being what it is (and anyone who sees me gak this up, feel free to leap in here) but here's what we're looking at;

Chance of getting 1 or greater penetrating hits
1 Blaster = 22%
2 Blasters = 39%
3 Blasters = 52%
4 Blasters = 62%

Looking at the numbers we can clearly see that (shock) 4 blasters is going to give us more penetrating hits than 3 blasters.
However, you pay 81 points for 3, and 108 points for 4.

So for a 33.3% price increase we get a 19.2% damage performance increase when the goal is at least one penetrate (numbers are better for at least 2 penetrates - 12% to 20% methinks, but that's a different ball of wax).
That isn't shameful, and in the grand scope of the game isn't bad...but it's hardly *needed* either. Three Trueblasters will serve your needs of putting pens into vehicles.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Warrior/Trueborn loads in Venoms - Thoughts?   Warrior/Trueborn loads in Venoms - Thoughts? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 19:08

However, the addition of hull points have made looking at the chance of wrecking/exploding vehicles more interesting:

Against AV12 on a 3 HP target:

1 blaster chance to explode/wreck = 7.39%
2 blaster chance to explode/wreck = 14.42% (7.03 increase)
3 blaster chance to explode/wreck = 22.62% (8.2 increase)
4 blaster chance to explode/wreck = 31.94% (9.32 increase)

(the above takes into account hull points and double imobalised results)

Notice how the increase gets larger per additional blaster due to the hull point mechanic.

Hope that's useful. Smile

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Warrior/Trueborn loads in Venoms - Thoughts?   Warrior/Trueborn loads in Venoms - Thoughts? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 20:11

That's immaterial though - yes, the more blasters you fire at something the more likely it will die. But the blasters can come from varying sources.

The goal of putting multiple blasters in a single unit has always been, to my mind, trying to ensure a major result from a single fusillade (the penetrate)

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Warrior/Trueborn loads in Venoms - Thoughts?   Warrior/Trueborn loads in Venoms - Thoughts? I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 20:33

Agreed, I just find it interesting that the hull points mechanic means there are no diminishing returns, the way you would normally expect, you actually get more bang for your buck from the 4th blaster than from the 3rd, which I find facinating and counter intuative. Especially with all the protection from suppression that's running around (fortitude, living metal, daemonic possession) and now that glancing doens't suppress.

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PostSubject: Re: Warrior/Trueborn loads in Venoms - Thoughts?   Warrior/Trueborn loads in Venoms - Thoughts? I_icon_minitime

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