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 Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850

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Raoiley
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PostSubject: Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850   Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 08 2013, 01:42

I was just tabled. Consensus in the store was that very few lists would have stood much a chance. Still, I'd like some ideas.

Here's what I ran --

Duke in a raider with 5 incubi
2 raiders with 10 wyches with haywire grenades
2 raiders with 10 warriors with splinter cannons and splinter racks
2 venoms with 4 trueborn with blasters
2 void ravens with missles (the 7 strength ones)
1 ravager

he ran

3 hydras
4 extra armour sentinels
9 chimeras with veterans in them with a lascannon and plasma

to put it bluntly, he shot me to crap. I was ruthlessly tabled. Mistakes I recognize I made ---

1. I thought maybe I could deepstrike the wyches in with the duke and haywire his tanks. but his deployment made this impossible. I did deepstrike one of my raiders and turbo boost into cover. he just drove away from it on the next turn so nothing could assault.
2. i didnt get to go first
3. first turn was night fight, i didnt deploy properly and he was able to shoot a couple things on first turn
4. i was overconfident that id survive and shoot

still... what do you guys do against a super super meq guard list? he just has SOOOOOO many shots. no matter how many heavy weapons i take, im not gonna be able to bust 10-15 tanks in a couple of turns..
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850   Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 08 2013, 02:28

Duke can not start with incubi unless you have no warriors or true born.

This is just a plain bad match up. That much armour on the table is always bad for us.

The points spent on the void ravens missiles are a waste IMO but to be honest, 3 ravagers would be better in most cases, especially when they have 3 hydra!

Night fight should have been gold for you as you ignore it and combined with night shields would have seen either very good cover saves or no shots at you.

Incubi are a waste in this game and trueborn, harlies, beasts or reavers would all have been helpful

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Thor665
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Thor665

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PostSubject: Re: Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850   Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 08 2013, 03:09

I consider his list a competitive IG list, but on the weaker side of IG.

I would consider your list a semi-competitive list, and probably on the weaker side of that.

Consequently, you being tabled is not much of a shock. Add in a bunch of self admitted mistakes on your part and it becomes even less surprising.

Are you playing an 1850 or a 2000 point list here? Your list looks like a 1850 point list with points badly spent on too expensive options, or a 2000 point list with way too many upgrades taken. I'll admit I'm getting off point here, but I am looking at your list and seeing a lot of holes in it. I also don't really like building lists for other people, but let's just consider the real breakdown here;

Problem: You were tabled because he had more mech than you could deal with.

That's really why you lost, so let's look at your solution to dealing with mech in this list;

5 Raiders - so 5 shots that can go at any target.
2 squads of Wyches - in assault can manage a couple vehicles, can't manage assault till urn 2 or so (later if you deepstrike them, also, DSing robs you of two lances)
Duke's pistol - meh. Turn 2-3...maybe.
8 Blasters - all in 2 firing platforms, so only 2 additional targets.
1 Ravager - so 3 lances, all shoot one target.
2 Void Ravens - 4 lances, but only two targets.

So, you have a lot of anti-mech at a glance, but pay attention to that target issue. Yes, you can say you're bringing 12 lances and 8 Blasters, sounds really intimidating...but are you really gaining a lot with that?

Because the reality is you're only able to shoot at 10 different targets in a turn, and that's if you start everything on the board and aren't trying to bum rush with the Wyches. (8 targets if bum rushing with the Wyches)

My usual 1850 army fields, let's see...15 lances and 13 Blasters that can be fired at 16 different targets (which, in a truly magical universe, might just deal with 15 tanks in one turn, and can certainly deal with them in a couple of turns, and has). I also still have Haywire assault support and a Deathstar unit.

That's the sort of difference that starts to put you into a situation where you deal with mech, and that's where I think you had part of your issue.

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Raoiley
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PostSubject: Re: Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850   Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 08 2013, 03:16

makes sense for sure..
what would be in your deathstar?
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850   Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 08 2013, 03:37

My current affordable deathstar of choice is Baron Sathypants + Beasts. It also helps you get first turn, which is rather nice versus gunline wimps.

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Raoiley
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PostSubject: Re: Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850   Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 08 2013, 03:41

i did just convert a baron and I have a full beast squad waiting to go......
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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850   Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 08 2013, 07:49

How exactly do you fit 15 lances and 13 blasters in a list? Most I've wielded in 5th was 10 lances and 13 blasters (2 Ravagers+Razorwing, 2 Raiders, 3 3man Blasterborn and 4 Warrior squads). If I gave everythign Raiders instea dof Venoms, I could get it to that number, but that would leave me seriously lacking in anti-infantry (and so far in this edition my main problem has been dealing with huge Marine blobs rather than tanks; luckily the Helldrake has made footslogging 50 Marine less popular). And in this edition I've had to cut down on the lances a bit to fit other useful stuff (using 2 flyers and 1 Ravager instead of 2 Ravagers and a flyer, took an allied Farseer and replaced Wytches with Baron and Beastmasters).

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850   Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 08 2013, 16:14

I feel like you're answering your own question there. You're adding in flyers, adding allies, and convincing yourself that a specific amount of Venoms are needed.

My list is easily buidable at 1850, and includes baron, beasts, and Wyches w. HWGs (and I have Venoms too).

Beasts are an optimal infantry blob killer, and I have enough Venoms to deal with a Loota or Long Fang squad at game start if needed. The Wyches also have PGLs, so can do an okay job locking in with infantry blobs if I need them tarpitted and do not need to assault any Dreads or something with grenades.

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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850   Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 08 2013, 19:49

Not so much a specific number, but having some Venoms is necessary, I think, for dealing with infantry. I'm only running 4 in this edition, as opposed to the 7 in last. One or two could probably be replaced for Raiders and still maintain decent amount of AI fire.

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huymix
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PostSubject: Re: Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850   Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 08 2013, 20:49

There are a couple of things between Army Composition and Target Priority. Let's start with Target Priority.

If you don't consider Voidravens and Razorwings in your army composition the last thing you give any care to are those Hydras. As I recall, they only shoot things on the ground on 6s (reverse of shooting at Flyers).

Between the Chimera's and the Sentinels, I would prioritize the chimeras in order for the Venoms to kill whatever comes out. Chimera spam is very common with IG lists so if you're playing in a competitive environment, expect to see a lot of them.

Army Composition:

- I really don't like the blasterborn anymore because of the fact moving more than 6" means snapfiring only. For this reason, I've downgraded my blasterborn into sniperborn (3 man 2 lance squads).
- For one thing I already don't like wyches. So 10 in a squad is already a lot for me. But 2 squads of 10 is also too much for me. Consider, taking a venom and throwing 5 in. The reason is, if you're throwing them at tanks, you would expect them to die the next turn. So, minimize the losses from these squads.
- 2 Voidravens gets pricey too. I like Voidravens a lot. But 2 all upgraded with Missles is a lot of points to sink into flyers that don't start on the table and shoot every turn.

To answer your question, my composition is the only real answer I have for you.

3 squads of trueborn with dark lances (x2)
1 Ravager with dark lances (x3)
1 Quad Gun (for those very light tanks, Rhinos/Sentinels etc.)
2 blasters on 2 warrior squads in Venoms
1 Razorwing with Lances
3 Reavers with 1 Heat lance
1 Drop pod grey hunters with melta
1 squad of split firing twin-linked missle launchers from Long Fangs (x5)

However, I am very reliant on alpha strike. Otherwise, I can get crumpled.

My suggestion is small 3 man Reaver squads with heat lance can turbo right behind him and cause havoc.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850   Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 08 2013, 21:23

@huymix wrote:
If you don't consider Voidravens and Razorwings in your army composition the last thing you give any care to are those Hydras. As I recall, they only shoot things on the ground on 6s (reverse of shooting at Flyers).
They still fire normally when targeting Skimmers.

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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850   Tabled by Imperial Guard at 1850 I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 09 2013, 07:51

Voidraven swith all missiles are just too expensive. I'd consider running them with eighter 2 (since you can only fire 2 per turn anyway) or with none. With 2 they can do one turn of missile fire, enough to obliterate most GEQ or small MEQ (longfangs and such) units. With none you've got a relatively cheap flyer (not compared to Vendetta, but Vendetta is ridiculously underpriced anyway) with very good anti-armour capabilities.

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