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huymix
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PostSubject: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 31 2012, 15:27

Hello everyone,

I've recently had the pleasure of facing my friends Necron army of 6 Night Scythes and while it ultimately come down as a draw, I was wondering what the communities thoughts were on the most effective means of dealing with flyers.

From my own experiments I would rank the options as:

1) Quad Gun
2) Broadsides
3) Long fangs with Rune priest
4) Grey Knights Dread (strength 8 of course)
5) Razorwing/Voidraven
6) Ravager/Other Lances

The reason I have Razorwing/Voidraven so far down is due to the fact that I feel the shooting at flyers is at odds with the use of the missles. Especially with the Voidraven it feels like more of a waste of points to shoot at another flyer (even with strength 9). I like the Ravager as the per point Dark Lance use and the fact the Ravager is flexible means that it can try to stay out of the firing arcs of flyers.

Any options I haven't considered? Am I out to lunch with the way I've ordered the above? I'm interested in hearing how all of you have managed against flyers and what your experience has been so far.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 31 2012, 15:38

Best Anti-Air options:

1) Mobility and positioning, these are by far the biggest counter to flyers. They have to move 18" and can only perform one 90 degree turn at the start of their movement. They also have to come on from their table edge and can't fly off the same turn they come on. Taking these things into account if you can get most of your army into your opponents half they will have a far harder time finding targets. They also have big bases so if you position your models carefully you can limit their movement to an extent (why hordes are so good against flyers).

2) Assault, if you are locked in combat flyer's can't shoot you.

3) Going to ground, you can get a 2-3+ cover save by going to ground in area terrain making flyers that don't ignore cover a lot less effective.

4) Ignore them and focus on the mission and wiping out your opponents ground forces.

Hope that helps. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 31 2012, 16:27

I would move Mush's 4 to 2, but otherwise think he nailed it.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 31 2012, 17:03

Cheeky answers although very true answers.

There are always the generic tactics of: Avoid, Ignore and Attack.

But I think it I did not specify in my original post my intent, which is to ask: what is the best tool in the toolbox for attacking flyers. Certainly avoid and ignore are ways of "dealing" with flyers but if you are going to attack them, which isn't even one of the options listed, what would you take.

In my post, I talked about playing against a spam 6 Night Scythe list and the problem was that I did wipe out his ground forces turn 2 which makes options 2 and 4 completely useless. 1 was very difficult as there were 6. And going to ground is tough when objectives are in the open.

I'm you think glad Mush "nailed it" and I'm guessing you might not be dealing with as much flyer spam as I am but in my situation I was hoping for something different.
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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 31 2012, 17:19

It wasn't intended as a cheeky answer. Sorry if it came across that way. Embarassed

But seriously the above four points are the most effective tools for dealing with flyers as Dark Eldar. Most of the other options are not really worth it. A quad gun will get taken out in the first turn, void ravens will be out numbered, and the other options have a huge cost in terms of HQ and TROOP tax.

@huymix wrote:

In my post, I talked about playing against a spam 6 Night Scythe list and the problem was that I did wipe out his ground forces turn 2 which makes options 2 and 4 completely useless. 1 was very difficult as there were 6.

BR8: The Black Buzzards VS Necron Teslatastic - 1500pts (with pictures)

Only four scythes at 1500 points, but it should give you an idea of what I'm getting at.

@huymix wrote:

And going to ground is tough when objectives are in the open.

You get to deploy some of the objectives, so some of them could have been in cover. You can also just park a raider on an objective, that way when it gets wrecked the crater it leaves behind gives you a nice piece of area terrain to hide in.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 31 2012, 17:58

while I agree with the avoid and evading of flyers strategy, I really think you need to redo your rankings. The VoidRaven bomber needs to be seperated from the razorwing, your statement about using AI missiles doesn't by default apply to the Voidraven.

You could make a similar arguement that the other models mentioned from the other armies have "Other things to do" and therefore aren't good anti-flyer either.

In any case,

The Long fangs (4 missiles) with rune priest, the GK psy-dread, the voidraven, and the razorwing will all score on average 1.33 hits against a flyer. But the Razorwing has + 1 to the damage result for being ap2 and the voidraven has the +1 for being ap2 and +1 str. Making the voidraven the clear winner of the 4 and the razorwing in second.

The voidraven also beats out the quad gun against armor 12, but the interceptor rule more than makes up for that.
As for Broadsides, how many? I assume 3 meaning you will should score 1 hit per turn on average, and its str 10 ap1 so yeah it's pretty nice, but if it's 2, then it's a not so nice.

The Blood angels Storm Raven should be at the top of the list. Those blood strike missiles with the power of the machine spirit is increadibly mean.

The voidraven is pretty much a dedicated AT/AF unit it can drop the mine on infantry units and then fire at the flyer seperately with really good guns making it a very nice anit-flyer unit, if your opponent tries to move up close forcing you to move over them, then they get bombed! and you can just fly off the table.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 31 2012, 18:34

I didn't think you could drop the bomb on a flyer. Maybe you're right but for some reason it doesn't feel right to me.

Also, does the Quad gun really attract that much attention? I use small Trueborn squads with lances so those tend to be picked on first and then Ravagers.

As for HQ and Troop tax it really depends on your local meta game. So if I had nobody that took flyers then I would not be justified in spending anything on anti-flyer and also making the troop/HQ "tax" worthwhile. On the other hand, if I'm going to tournaments (which I will this year as DE) and I expect a good number of flyers (Storm Ravens, Valkyries, Night Scythes are all very popular in my area) then I can very well justify the "tax" if the benefits outweigh the cost. What I'm saying is, I wouldn't immediately disqualify a desperate ally option without thinking about the likely opponents.

So maybe the list of best weapons to attack flyers goes:

1) Blood Angels Storm Raven
2) Quad Gun
3) Void Raven / Valkyries
5) Broadsides (3 for sure!)
6) Long Fangs + Rune Priest / Razorwing / GK Dread
9) Ravager etc.

Now the above is not to say that each of these reflects the most cost effective way of dealing with flyers or that these should be taken in this order for all builds. But I think it's good, for building lists, to consider all options and all types of threats. Anti-flyer is just another threat to consider (just like horde, parking lots, deathstars, etc.).

Even now, the BA Storm Raven was not something I had even considered so propers to Seshiru for pointing it out.
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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 31 2012, 18:47

I was meaning drop a bomb on infantry, and then shoot the void lances at a flyer since you don't have to target the same unit; your right Flyer's can't be hit by blast weapons.

For me, I take out my opponents quad guns turn 1 ever time; it's an easy first blood, it's a real pain for my transports, and I tend to use at least 1 Void Raven so I don't want my opponent to be able to down it.

I see a quad gun in almost every list, even most Dark Eldar players, and if they have access to flyers most armies will have 1-2 with the exceptions of Necrons which tend to have 3-4 or them.

I like your new rankings

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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 01 2013, 15:35

@huymix wrote:
I'm guessing you might not be dealing with as much flyer spam as I am but in my situation I was hoping for something different.

You will not get air superiority against a necron flyer spam list. Simply because flyers are the best solution to taking out other flyer and a flyer spam list will have more flyers than you.

Investing in a void raven or another single unit to take out a flyer is like trying to break a stone with an egg. The necron player will have second turn, his flyers will come on after yours and take them out before they can shout, at best you might take out one of his flyers before he takes out your dedicated source of AA.

By not investing in dedicated anti flyer units, you will be able to take out his ground forces faster. The faster you take out his ground forces the sooner you can consolidate onto the mission objectives, go to ground and point your blasters and lances to the sky. Your units will have absolutely no penalty for going to ground as they can only snapfire at flyers anyway.

@huymix wrote:
Also, does the Quad gun really attract that much attention? I use small Trueborn squads with lances so those tend to be picked on first and then Ravagers.

It's easy to take out and it's a quick first blood. If your fighting an opponent with flyers it's a no brainer to take it out. As mentioned before that's the problem with all the options you listed. Flyers always get the alpha strike except against units with the intercept special rule, so your squad of long fangs, broadsides or whatever will just get toasted by the flyers when they come on. Especially if you are playing against a flyer heavy list. Necron flyers spam lists just have this great ability to pick one target and make it dead.

So going over your list:

1) Blood Angels Storm Raven <-- going to get taken out, as it will be outnumbered
2) Quad Gun <-- single target will get taken out before flyers get on
3) Void Raven / Valkyries <-- going to get taken out, as it will be outnumbered
5) Broadsides (3 for sure!) <-- HQ and TROOP tax, single unit syndrome
6) Long Fangs + Rune Priest / Razorwing / GK Dread <-- HQ and TROOP tax, single unit syndrome
9) Ravager etc. <-- Dark lances, and blasters are by far your best option

So I would rewrite it as this:

1) Dark light weapons (go to ground in area terrain, body block objectives and point your blasters/lances to the sky).

The biggest concern with all the other options you listed is they don't have any redundancy.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 01 2013, 16:48

Hmmm, well I still think you're missing the goal here. I think there is something that you're touching on, that can be discussed as well as a component of army building, which is the distinction between:

- Effectiveness
- Efficiency

Which as a loose working definition I generally define effectiveness as in: getting the job done the best whereas efficiency is getting the job done using the least of a particular resource.

An example would be: to kill a unit of Nobs.

You might say, Most Effective Unit in DE Codex is Incubi.
But then, given the constraint of costs (by default) Most Efficient in DE Codex is Disintegrators.
If the constraint changed to, of infantry models (for whatever reason) then Most Efficient might be Incubi.

Both questions of what is the relative effectiveness and efficiency of a unit are relevant for army building and an critique of a particular unit does not really make much sense without the overall context of an army list.

The point of all of the above is this, I have been hoping to ask an effectiveness question rather than an efficiency question.

I think the point of survivability and redundancy are probably best kept to either an efficiency conversation or to a specific army build.

I hope that all this keeps this post a bit more on track.

Note: I disagree about the Quad gun but that can be its own post if you like.
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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 01 2013, 17:09

Also, they're coming at the problem from a very narrow viewed concept.

I feel like the question was "What is the best way to deal with Tau out-shoot you" and the answer was "assault them" and then the reply was "but assaulting them is silly, I want to outshoot them"

Well, yes, you can attempt to - but it's not the best way to *beat* Tau out-shooting you, so is the goal to outshoot them, or to defeat them? That's what I feel we're seeing here - "what's the best way to defeat Flyer spam by killing them?" and the real answer is "Our army has shockingly limited tools to kill them - most armies do - but our army has amazing tools to outmanuver, survive, and negate them which will defeat them all the same, regardless of the killing aspect."

As far as killing Flyers go, for the DE in specific and even other armies in general - it's about the ability to generate a lot of shots that can successfully hit.

To be frank, if we're talking about killing them I'm actually intrigued by some of the answers. Long Fangs? Really? Paying almost 150 points for 5 guys with missile launchers is a 'good strategy' vs. Flyers? That's 5 shots, hitting on 6+ If that's 'good' then a squad of Lootas are the next coming of the Almighty methinks - 10-30 shots that hit on a 6+ (which is almost them shooting at their full BS) and they'll shred a flyer with Str 7 spam shots. Plus they're fearless and will be way harder to actually kill and take off the board and will be effective at popping Flyers down to even just 5 of them.

Against AV 10 Flyers - the entire Ork Codex is about the best thing ever seen.
Orks are also good at covering ground, and being surprisingly mobile - doing the other strategies that help actually weaken and nullify flyers.
So, I would say outside of Necron Flyer Spam, the best anti-flyer spam option when killing is the goal is to play Foot Orks with a lot of Lootas and other high strength shooting options.

I think that's not really the true answer - but I do think Mush makes some excellent points in trying to point out how brining small, single, easy to kill options is really not good anti Flyer spam tech. If I bring one or two Void Ravens I do not have good anti-Flyer spam abilities in my army, because the Void Ravens are out numbered and out gunned at their mission goal, and will be blasted from the sky.

Understanding that, I need to look at what the absolute maximum "best Flyer killing Force" I could field. That would be 3 VRs, a Quad Gun, 3 four man Trueblasters, and, I guess, a lot of other Darklight spam.

I will mostly hit on 6+ I will wound on 4+. The Quad gun and the VRs have better ratios, and it's a question if my support elements can help those 4 units overpower 3-6 enemy Flyers.

Probably versus some lists it would work. Against some other Flyer lists (6 Flyers) it probably would not.
Now the question is to look at it from the other side - if the enemy brings a non-Flyer based force, does my army have any chance at all?
The answer is 'no'.

So, at that point I need to figure out a way to adjust the list, because it fails against non-Flyer lists and is only semi-effective against spam Flyer lists. What that tells me is I can't build a DE list with the idea of killing a Flyer Spam list. I need to do something else.

And that drifts me back to the initial comments I thought nailed it. Understanding how to weaken and diminish the Flyers without needing to kill them.

But if you only want the answer as to what kills them best?
I think Ork Lootas do it better than most of the things you're listing.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 02 2013, 09:18

@huymix wrote:
The point of all of the above is this, I have been hoping to ask an effectiveness question rather than an efficiency question.

Well lets take your definition of effectiveness.

@huymix wrote:
Which as a loose working definition I generally define effectiveness as in: getting the job done the best whereas efficiency is getting the job done using the least of a particular resource.

Consider the following scenario, lets assume for simplicity that a flyer gets 4 turns of shooting per game (coming in turn 2, and needing to spend one turn repositioning, and the game ending on turn 6). So using the list you suggested six necron flyers get 24 turns of shooting altogether (this is assuming the unlikely event that they all come in on the same turn).

Take one of the options in your list the quad gun. Lets assume the quad gun (optimistically) takes out one scythes before it can fire and another the following turn (before getting it gets taken out by your opponent). That means that the quad gun would reduce the total number of turns of flyers shooting to 17.

Now take positioning, merely by having all your forces within 18" of your opponents board edge, you will reduce each of those flyers turns of shooting by 1 (as they will have to come in at an angle meaning they will get a turn of shooting before overshooting you wasting at least a turn to reposition). Positioning alone would reduce the total number of turns of flyers shooting to 18.

Even assuming the best case scenarios for the quad gun and the scythes and the worst case scenario for positioning, they are very similar in terms of "effectiveness". However once you take into account the ease of achieving good positioning with the Dark Eldar's armies fantastic mobility you can easily. it's clear that positioning is a very "effective" way of dealing with flyers and what's even better is that it scales for the number of flyer your opponents has (as positioning will at least negate one turn of shooting for each flyer your opponent has). The quad gone does not have this "scaling" advantage.

If you can get your whole army into the the centre of your opponents half you can easily halve the effectiveness of their flyers, as the best option for them will be to strafe you and then fly off the board (rinse repeat). In this case positioning would reduce the total number of turns of flyers shooting to 12. If you can get two out of say four objectives in this area you are off to a very good start. Get them in cover/make cover with raider wrecks and you are on your way to victory.

The bellow picture demonstrates this. If you get all your forces in the red circle, then your opponents flyer has to follow the yellow line, with turn 2 leading to them overshooting you. Therefore for him to get the most turns of shooting out of his flyers his best option is to follow the blue root after his first turn of shooting and fly off the board. He will keep having to do this, thus only shooting you once every two turns with a given flyer.
Anti-Air Options Flyerpos
Note: the green Xs represent objectives you have placed.

So why not use positioning and one of the static options you mentioned above (broadsides, quad guns etc). Simply because you can't. Those static units will not be near your opponents board edge due to their lack of mobility. This means your opponents flyers will not be missing out on shooting as they will still have valid targets when they over shoot the rest of your forces (be it the quad gun and the squad manning it, or some broadsides sitting cosy in cover).

The impressive mobility of the Dark Eldar army gives you fantastic positioning capabilities, and as pointed out above positioning is not only a very "efficient" way of dealing with flyers but also a very "effective" way. In this regard you could say DE have an inbuilt flyer defence due to their mobility.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 02 2013, 10:14

I hope I won't get accused of de-railing the thread here, but I'd like to bring up what is currently my biggest pain-in-the-rearguard for my Tyranid army: The Chaos Heldrake. With the flamer option, this thing is a nightmare for anything except Terminator armour!

To address Mushkilla's 4 alternatives to killing the flier:
1) Mobility and positioning
The Heldrake has the Hover rule, so can move between 0 and 36", and at short range pivot how it likes

2) Assault, if you are locked in combat flyers can't shoot you.
This still works!

3) Going to ground
Baleflamer is a template, so ignores cover!

4) Ignore them and focus on the mission and wiping out your opponents ground forces.
Between total movement options, and a weapon that ignores cover and most armour, wounds on 2s, and once per game even re-rolls its failed wounding rolls, this flier pretty much removes a unit every turn!

Add to that a 5++ save and It Will Not Die, and you have a flier that can certainly NOT be ignored, and can only be dealt with by shooting at it until it is dead,dead,dead!

How do you guys think the above AA lists would be modified to include Chaos Flier spam lists?
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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 02 2013, 14:02

I don't disagree with the tactic of staying out of the flier's firing arc.

I think commandersasha is getting to a very relevant example. Sometimes, this tactic of avoiding does not work. Examples include:

1) Necron NightScythe spam. They are everywhere, and in your diagram, getting into the red zone can mean, getting assaulted by a lot of scarabs/rapid firing gauss weapons.

2) Heldrakes. One is a pain the arse, two is brutal. Especially with hover.

3) Valkyries (with outflank, I think it still works this way, but I've yet to play an IG in 6th that fields these guys).

4) Flying Hive Tyrants/Chaos Daemons flying circus. Hive Tyrants have a 360 degree arc and can start on the table Turn 1.

Avoiding is great, and if you can avoid fliers then by all means avoid them. I don't think I've ever argued against avoiding fliers as a tactic but the bottom line is, sometimes the only option left is to attack them. Mush, your diagrams and explanation are fine and I understand its a great tactic when available, but I think you are missing the point.

To commandersasha's question re: Chaos Flier spam lists is the only difference I see would be that the Broadsides might be an even better option to consider because of AP 1. Once a penetrating hit goes through, that AP 1 will make a difference in destroying a Heldrake. You can't do much about it hovering or it's 5++ and It Will Not Die, but when you get a penetrating hit, the Broadside has the best shot of making that penetrating shot count. Whether or not you feel a troop/HQ tax (if you even view them as a tax) can justify the Broadsides in the context of your army list will be up to you to balance out. But as a tool against Heldrakes, I think the Broadside definitely gets higher billing.

Note: It helps that the Broadsides have a very good save and would be very survivable in comparison to any other single option against the flamer attacks of the Chaos.
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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 02 2013, 16:28

As far as the Chaos stuff goes - if it hovers because it has to deal with your attempts to weaken it then isn't that kind of solving the whole flyer issue for you right then anyway?

HWGs in assault and Bob's your uncle.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 02 2013, 17:13

@huymix wrote:

Sometimes, this tactic of avoiding does not work. Examples include:

1) Necron NightScythe spam. They are everywhere, and in your diagram, getting into the red zone can mean, getting assaulted by a lot of scarabs/rapid firing gauss weapons.

Necron flyer spam lists like going second so that they can contest/claim objectives on the last turn and so that you have less turns shooting their flyers. This means you will get two turns where you have all of your army against half or less of his. That's easily enough time to clear most of what he has and consolidate into the middle of his half. Remember even just being in his half will reduce his number of turns shooting, though not as effectively as being in the middle.

Scarabs, wraiths? Great, firstly they won't be at full strength when you engage (scarabs are no where near as good this edition) as you will have spent a turn at range whittling them down. Then you can move in and assault and use those units to keep your army safe from flyers by locking yourself in combat.

@huymix wrote:

2) Heldrakes. One is a pain the arse, two is brutal. Especially with hover.

The flamer on the helldrake gives it a very short range (12"+8" template), it can only flame you once before overshooting you. Because of the short range of the helldrake you don't even need to go over into your opponents half (as they will always overshoot you because of their range). Again you just need to group up and tempt it to go into hover mode, and then it's dead, as you apply all of your lance fire to it (as hover mode means hitting on full BS). Also the most your opponent can field is three and they aren't exactly cheap so I wouldn't even consider this flyer spam.

If the above strategy doesn't suit your fancy then void raven's excel at taking out helldrakes, as even if the helldrakes outnumber it they can only hurt the raven with their meteoric decent. Deepstrike behind the drake(s), S9 AP2 void lances laugh at AV10 rear armour (yes our flyers can deepstrike).

@huymix wrote:

3) Valkyries (with outflank, I think it still works this way, but I've yet to play an IG in 6th that fields these guys).

They can outflank on the first turn they come in, however they can no longer do this when they come in from ongoing reserve. Not to mention they are generally an anti tank platform, so are not much of a threat to infantry. More Vendettas means less chimeras. Don't really see the problem here.

@huymix wrote:

4) Flying Hive Tyrants/Chaos Daemons flying circus. Hive Tyrants have a 360 degree arc and can start on the table Turn 1.

Our basic weapons always wounds on a 4+. Also grounding tests are caused by successful hits. Again what's the problem?

@huymix wrote:
sometimes the only option left is to attack them.

You have two types of army that you can face that involve flyers:

1-3 flyers: ignore/outmanoeuvre them, get into assault, or take them out when they switch to hover mode. Most flyers just can't do enough damage to be worth taking out (helldrakes being the main exception, but tend to switch into hover mode).

Again if the above doesn't suit you a void raven does a good job against 1-3 flyers as it can out manoeuvre them thanks to deepstrike.

4+ flyers: take out all your opponents ground forces, set up good positioning and point all your dark light weapons to the sky, go to ground, and block objectives.

None of the above require dedicated anti air units. If you feel safer with an AA unit then by all means take a void raven it's a fantastic AA and AV platform, that get's a real edge from deep-strike. I just don't see desperate allies being worth it just for flyer defence.

Interesting discussion though. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 03 2013, 15:50

@Mushkilla wrote:
Also the most your opponent can field is three and they aren't exactly cheap so I wouldn't even consider this flyer spam.

They can field 6 at 2k, there not that expensive (although this would be very unlikely) and RAW it seems they can flamer behind them so moving over you with a Vector Strike then setting you on fire, it's very nasty.

For me the Hell Drake and the Storm Raven Gunship, make the Void Raven worth running in 2K and up games that are all commers.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 03 2013, 17:33

@Seshiru wrote:
and RAW it seems they can flamer behind them so moving over you with a Vector Strike then setting you on fire, it's very nasty.

Sure you can place the template of a torrent weapon anywhere within 12" (BRB page 71). However line of sight for vehicles is worked out from their gun barrel (BRB page 34) and if no models in the firing unit have LoS at the time the shooting is resolved all wounds in the firing pool are lost (BRB page 16). So the helldrake can't wound anything behind it because it doesn't have LoS behind it.

This should make helldrakes less of a threat to you. Hope that helps. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 20:22

I'm sorry Mush, but the outmaneuver the flyers answer just seems a bit over-simplified to me. Maybe I'm not fast enough with my Dark Eldar, but even if I toe them all up to the deployment line like I'm starting the Indy 500 and forget about getting them into cover, I am not going to have the bulk of my forces within 18" of my opponent's back table edge at the end of T1, ESPECIALLY in Hammer and Anvil. Granted, I could be close, but trying to do so costs me much of my alpha strike ability and makes me vulnerable to T1 shooting. Further, given some of the scenarios in 6th and the ability of torrent weapons to fire off bore, a strategy of maneuver based on getting into and staying within 18" of my opponent's back edge seems doomed for an army that relies on its ability to maneuver.

I agree with you that we cannot out-flyer-spam true flyer spam armies, but I just am not convinced that you can solve that by simply saying "maneuver better". So can you elaborate or provide examples (point to some batreps?) of what you are talking about and how it is achieved.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 20:51

@Malevolent-Storm wrote:
So can you elaborate or provide examples (point to some batreps?) of what you are talking about and how it is achieved.

Other than the battle report I linked near the top of this thread I don't. Though I'll try and get my next game in against a list with 3 or more flyers. Or is it specifically scythe spam you want an example of?

Hope that helps. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 21:44

I'm curious about the O.P.'s question in the terms of dealing with a list with too many flyers for us to out-flyer so say more than three. I'm also specifically curious about the Heldrake and its torrent which can move around so much. It could com in on a shallow angle and fly along the 18" line tossing it's flame "around the corner" and burning things well inside the 18" line.

I get that Reavers can get inside the 18" if they have a mind to do so pretty easily. Obviously Taloses simply can't. Most everything else could get there pretty quickly, but probably not in 1 turn. if you go first, you have two moves to get there, but if you go second, you have only one. If you start in the front of your DZ you have to move 18" in Dawn of War and 30" in Hammer and Anvil to get there. In one turn, our transports can do the 18" barely but in doing so give up a lot of the initial round of shooting. They can't really move the 30" in one turn, but that means degrading our shooting for 2 turns. Beasts, Hellions, etc. have their won movement, but are closer to the Raiders in speed than the Reavers.

So it doesn't seem as simple as you implied to just close the range to avoid the flyer. Doing so gives up a lot of the early turn shooting which is crucial to a fragile list like ours. It also will often force us to take more risks with our transports which already give up first blood all too often. Many scenarios use objectives in ways that will make it impossible to castle up in our enemy's DZ and win. Some flyers like the Heldrake are super good at shooting at sharp angles, minimizing the shelter created by the 18" line. none of that even addresses the tactical problems for a mobility army having to rush into and then stay within the 18" line in the enemy's backfield.

I looked at that BatRep and while it made mention of trying to get closer than 18" to the flyers at times, it did not seem to really follow your advice in this post to get inside the enemy's back 18", hunker down, and point the dark light weapons to the sky. In your report, you had lots of Reavers who, of course, got within 18 inches of the back edge. Your Raiders, however, only just got to 18" and you were deployed Dawn of War. You weren't trying to work with any slower stuff like a Talos either. And in T2 and T4, you back your raiders up outside of the 18" line. It may simply be that I am misreading your original replies to this thread, but I look at the drawing with the arrows and that is not what you did in your BatRep.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 22:01

@Malevolent-Storm wrote:
I am not going to have the bulk of my forces within 18" of my opponent's back table edge at the end of T1.

Wouldn't do you any good if you did, "In a turn in which a flyer enters the board from reserve, it can do so facing any direction you wish" P.80

I think the arguement is let you opponent come in with their flyers and hammer on you for 1 turn then zoom close to try and prevent further hammering.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 12 2013, 01:10

I have to say I was in the same boat most of u are now. My friend got a heldrake and I freaked out, tried using aton of lootas (which was actually a ton of fun) with de and aegis. He also started using more and more demon princes. It really freaked me out that I had to hit on 6s for everything. I slowly realized that having more of our bread and butter, lance and poison is the way to beat these highly specialized lists.

What I do now is just never attack flyers unless I have nothing else to shoot at. The more I specialize against taking them out, the more they targeted those units. So at best I get 1 turn less of getting attacked by a flyer. Also at best with those options I have less of our units that actually stress people out. Such as venoms and ravagers

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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 12 2013, 20:55

@Malevolent-Storm wrote:
I looked at that BatRep and while it made mention of trying to get closer than 18" to the flyers at times, it did not seem to really follow your advice in this post to get inside the enemy's back 18", hunker down, and point the dark light weapons to the sky. In your report, you had lots of Reavers who, of course, got within 18 inches of the back edge. Your Raiders, however, only just got to 18" and you were deployed Dawn of War. You weren't trying to work with any slower stuff like a Talos either. And in T2 and T4, you back your raiders up outside of the 18" line. It may simply be that I am misreading your original replies to this thread, but I look at the drawing with the arrows and that is not what you did in your BatRep.
The point is about moving to minimize the ability of the flyers to apply damage to your army - if you look at his movements you will see he did that consistently while also still moving and acting in ways to win the game.

I think the problem a number of posters here are having is thinking the advice "move into a situation where you can avoid flyer attacks' and the advice 'a good place to be is your opponent's back 18" ' translates into 'You must move fully and totally into the back 18" asap and ignoring all other considerations'.

At least that's the vibe I'm getting.

Yes, in one turn your Raiders can generally only manage 12-30 inches.
Other things move slower.
Yes, you are unlikely to be able to dodge around with a Talos - you made that a decision of your army when you bought your Talos - a Talos don't dodge nothing. If it dies too easy then either accept it as the bullet magnet it is, or use something else, but there is no logic in grumping that a Talos is slow and gets shot a lot.

Now, let's look again at this 18" bubble from the back edge situation and apply it to your army.
Let's say you get 2nd turn - the worst case thing a number of people have noted.
So you move up 12" and shoot your vehicles, some of your units maybe only move up 6" (though I debate what these would be)
Enemy fliers fly out 18" and shoot.

Now, let's assume you only moved up 6" - if you deployed on the line then you now have *exactly* 12" between you and the enemy fliers.
At an absolute maximum (say you deployed on your back board edge for cover reasons, I dunno.) you should have a touch over 20" between you and the enemy fliers.
Which means if you move towards the fliers this turn you should be able to dramatically minimize which of them can shoot at you.
As in, only those on a rough 45 degree angle from you ought to be able to then manage to shoot you.
That's moving very slow and from your back board edge.
DE are faster than that.

You cannot prevent fliers from shooting your army - this will happen. That's why we want Jink saves and armor saves, and other stuff.
But you *can* minimize the damage and wipe out all of the enemy ground forces. That's what the movement hijinks are about - controlling how much abuse the enemy fliers can inflict on you before the battle ends. If you minimize their ability to shoot you then you are functionally 'killing' them because the point of killing them is to prevent them shooting you.

@Seshiru wrote:
Wouldn't do you any good if you did, "In a turn in which a flyer enters the board from reserve, it can do so facing any direction you wish" P.80
You should read the rest of the sentence after that. This is not allowing fliers to 'fishtail' onto the board - it simply allows them to pick the angle they enter - they still need to move on in a straight line moving with their forward facing and still cannot rotate afterwards.

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PostSubject: Re: Anti-Air Options   Anti-Air Options I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 16 2013, 10:33

I know its FW and not everywhere allows FW, but I'm surprised that the Nightwing Interceptor didn't make its way onto the list of allied choices, as it looks purpose built to dick over other fliers and is available from BiB allies.

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