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 Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites

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Plastikente
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PostSubject: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 30 2012, 13:14

Part 3 of my unit guide - please critique and I will include any points I feel are valid in the final draft.
[Prepares himself for wall of feedback...]
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ELITES
Elites are the specialists who add punch to your army. Generally they are suited to destroying a particular type of enemy but don’t shine against other targets. Elites are not scoring units, so they are usually not game winners in their own right, but rather facilitators who clear the way for and protect your troops.

WRACKS
Strengths: Poisoned CCWs. Tough (for Dark Eldar). Start with a Pain Token. Can be troops and therefore scoring. In this case, they become the smallest, cheapest scoring unit available to DE.
Weaknesses: Very poor save. Very limited access to shooting weapons. No grenades. Not Fleet.
Upgrades: Liquifier guns are awesome – a flamer template with a 50% chance of melting straight through power armour every time it fires. I always max out on this upgrade.
An Acothyst is a fairly standard character upgrade, with the associated Ld buff, and ability to make precision strikes and make/accept challenges. The wargear available to an acothyst has all been covered in my description of Haemis. The high-end weapons essentially double the cost of the Acothyst, and he doesn’t have the I to take full advantage of them so I just stick to the cheap and cheerful Venom Blade. A Hexrifle can also be useful for picking out opponents with a chance of insta-killing any character or MC you are lucky enough to wound.
How to use:

Model vs MEQ vs TEQ vs GEQ vs MC
Undrugged Wych 0.056 0.028 0.222 -
Wrack 0.083 0.042 0.333 0.083
Like Wyches, Wracks need to be in combat to achieve much; in fact, Wracks can achieve almost nothing at a range greater than “template”. Unlike Wyches, Wracks love a tough opponent, giving them a better kill rate against SMurfs than a Wych without drugs and making them ideal for hunting Plague Marines, Wraithguard, Monstrous Creatures etc. The free pain token helps their survivability, and is very much needed as they only have thick skin for armour. Once they get a second pain taken, Wracks will be re-rolling to wound Space Marines and Orks on the turn they charge. Avoid targets in cover.
Wracks can make a useful escort for an IC, allowing him to start the game with a pain token. Beware the fact that they are not Fleet though, and they become very fragile if the IC separates and takes their pain token with him.
Unless deploying from a WWP, Wracks need a transport to get them to their target. 5 in a Venom or 10 in a Raider are both effective builds. I like to field Wracks, but only bother if I am also taking at least one Haemonculus to make them scoring.


INCUBI
Strengths: Best armour save available to DE. AP2 weapons, high weapon skill, above average attacks, standard DE high initiative. Incubi demolish MEQ in an assault.
Weaknesses: No grenades! If you assault someone in cover you lose your major advantage of striking first. Incubi have the standard DE toughness, which makes them vulnerable to shooting and strong cc attacks, even with that save. They also have a tendency to become victims of their own success, wiping out the first unit they charge only to be left stranded in the open where the enemy shoots them to pieces.
Upgrades: Apart from a dedicated transport, the only upgrade available to Incubi is to take a Klaivex and tool him up. I would only bother with a Klaivex if you aren’t using the Incubi as escorts for an IC. In that case, the Ld upgrade alone makes the upgrade worthwhile IMHO - Incubi are so expensive you really don’t want to see them bravely running away if they botch a combat. Characters also have the benefit of precision strikes and issuing/receiving challenges. Beware challenges though, unless you are certain that you can take your opponent down in one round. Most characters have access to power weapons, which stand a good chance of finishing you if they can land a blow. Options for a Klaivex are:

  • Demiklaives. An expensive weapon that just doesn’t quite pay for itself. Statistically, the strength increase always performs at least as well as the attacks increase (against any T>2). You get an increase in killiness of about 30% for a cost increase of over 50%. I would leave it at home, unless you are trying to kit your Klaivex out as a challenge assassin, but even then, an Archon or Succubus would be better suited.
  • Bloodstone. Good for thinning out enemies in power armour before you assault. Beware killing too many of them, or your charge might fail, but the range of a template is so small that this is unlikely to be a major issue.
  • Onslaught. A squad of 5 Incubi including a Klaivex with this power will generate on extra 1-2 attacks on average. For only a few more points you could just add an extra Incubus and have those extra attacks guaranteed.
  • Murderous Assault. In 6e it is not possible to target an IC specifically unless he is challenged or not in a squad, this power is really only useful then if you want to try to kit out your Incubi as a challenge assassin.

How to use: A squad of 5 Incubi is generally more than enough to take on any enemy, but be careful who you charge. Unless you pair the squad with an Archon with PGL, you need to avoid opponents in cover, and avoid taking on troops with power weapons unless you are sure you can wipe them out before they strike back. Overkill is always a risk with Incubi, so try to pick combats where you will not be left right out in the open if you wipe out you opponent. Like other DE troops, Incubi on foot don’t last. Venoms have the advantage of being smaller and having the free flicker field (in case your opponent gets the first turn), Raiders have the extra hull point which lets them take a bit more flak – either option can work. Some suggested Incubi builds:

  • IC escorts. 4 Incubi, Venom, extra Splinter Cannon [153]. Add an IC and go looking for trouble. An Archon is the only option to bring along a Phantasm Grenade Launcher so that you can hunt enemies in cover. I would also tool him out with Huskblade, Soul Trap and Shadowfield, but this makes him a real points sink.
  • Standalone Incubi. 5 Incubi including Klaivex, Raider [185]. Use your mobility to find an exposed squad in power armour to pick on. Night Shields will help the Raider get in close if you have the points, or you could take Grisly Trophies to try to make sure you stick around, or Torment Grenade Launchers to make sure that the enemy doesn’t.



GROTESQUES
Strengths: Strongest and Toughest infantry in the DE list, with plenty of attacks and wounds. Grots are practically monstrous creatures. Start with a pain token.
Weaknesses: Must be escorted by an IC, and if he dies, they’re in trouble...
Upgrades: Take a Liquifier Gun. They’re well worth the points, and your Grots will be getting in close anyway. An Aberration brings an extra attack and the advantages of being a character who can accept challenges to save escorting IC if you want. The Aberration’s weapon upgrades are all covered in the section on Haemis, with the same comments applying. I would only consider a Venom Blade, as the others probably won’t pay for themselves. The VB means that if the enemy gets a MC into the fight with you (for which Grots are a prime target) then you should still be able to force a few saves even against a Wraithlord.
How to use: Grots have a miniscule leadership, and suffer from the Berserk Rampage special rule. For these reasons, you will always want to accompany them with an Independent Character. Fortunately, they are close combat monsters, making them ideal escorts for an Archon or Succubus (with the one small downside being that they are not Fleet).
If you are going to take Urien Rakarth, it is well worth paying the extra points to upgrade your Grots’ strength. Due to his other special rules, if you start them with him you can have 3 Pain Tokens from the start of the game, meaning you won’t get pinned and giving you a high enough strength to threaten most vehicles.
Because Grots are bulky, they will not fit in a Venom, leaving essentially 2 viable unit builds:

  • Raider Grots. 4 Grots, Liquifier Gun, Aberration with Venom Blade [225] +IC. The maximum number you can fit in a Raider to escort your character. Night Shields and Torment Grenade Launchers are good complementary upgrades for this Raider if you have the points.
  • WWP Grots. 6 Grots, Liquifier Gun, Aberration with Venom Blade [235] +IC. A very similar price to the Raider squad, but with more hitting power. The high toughness and wounds should allow you to weather the inevitable mass fire you will draw on stepping out of the portal. This squad should stomp all over anything you get it into contact with (except vehicles!). You could push the squad up to max numbers [375 pts!], but you are probably already going to overkill any squad you are in combat with.



MANDRAKES
Strengths: They look nice ... that’s about it. Well, they do have Infiltrate and Move Through Cover as well.
Weaknesses: No grenades. Poor save, even if it is invulnerable. Can’t shoot until they get a pain token. May be slightly stronger than the average DE, but only have standard ccws to hit people with.
Upgrades: Only upgrade is a Nightfiend, giving the standard Ld buff and the advantages of being a character.
How to use: Mandrakes are not a great option in a competitive area of the Force Organisation Chart. They do not hit as hard as Incubi (or even Wyches, in most cases). They don’t shoot as well as Trueborn, and can’t shoot until you’ve got that vital pain token. They can outflank, but if you do so they can’t do anything on the turn they arrive unless you’ve paired them with a Haemi to let them shoot. Same goes if you bring them on from a WWP. Despite their invulnerable save, they are about as fragile as all Dark Eldar.
Against the right opponent, Mandrakes can hold their own (low T, poor assaulters with good saves – think Tau, IG, Gretchin...). Because of stealth, they are also quite resilient in cover. They can work nicely when paired with a Cronos to help them get that first pain token. If you are going to take them, take a large unit (8-10), but don’t expect too much of them – they are not a strong choice in our list.


HARLEQUINS
Strengths: High WS, access to rending weapons, ignore difficult terrain, can hit and run.
Weaknesses: Expensive, fragile, have to pay extra for grenades, don’t get power from pain.
Upgrades:

  • Harlequin’s Kiss. For a few points, you can make your attacks rending. This is well worth it against almost all opponents, but makes your Harlie cost as much as an Incubus.
  • Fusion Pistol. Like the Blast Pistol, you have to get very close to use this, so you’re unlikely to make a good return on your points investment.
  • Shadowseer. Expensive, but almost essential. Stealth and shrouded (from the Veil of Tears, see FAQ v1.1, page 2, left column) do a lot to mitigate for your fragility as long as you’re in cover. And the Hallucinogen Grenades allow you to assault through difficult terrain without being hacked apart before you can strike. (Although Harlequins ignore difficult terrain, they still strike at I1 if they charge through it without grenades. See FAQ v1a, page 3, right column.) Beware precision shots/strikes though. The Shadowseer is a real force-multiplier and your opponent will want to take him out asap.
  • Death Jester. Carries a shuriken cannon which pins, but sacrifices his extra cc attack (from 2 weapons) to do so. Not essential, but can deliver a useful effect. Unlike splinter weapons, the Shrieker Cannon can damage light vehicles.
  • Troupe Master. Standard character buff. You probably don’t need the extra A and Ld, but a power weapon in the squad could come in handy, particularly if you give him a power lance to use during his furious charge. Also, his ability to precision strike is very useful for taking out sergeants/special weapons before they can cause you damage.

How to use: The following table compares Harlequins to a couple of our other cc specialists. These stats are worked out for individual models on the charge. Harlequins do significantly worse in subsequent rounds, because they lose the advantage of their furious charge.

Model vs MEQ vs TEQ vs GEQ vs MC
Harlequin 0.444 0.222 1.185 0.111
Harlequin with Kiss 0.741 0.444 1.333 0.333
Incubus 1.000 0.667 1.333 0.250
Bloodbride (no drugs) 0.222 0.111 0.889 -
Wrack 0.250 0.125 1.000 0.250
The problem with Harlequins is that, without a kiss, they lack bite against armoured opponents. With kisses, they are not as good as Incubi (if your opponent is wearing any armour), but cost the same. That said, you will be taking a Shadowseer to buff your Harlies, so they can assault enemies in cover, which the Incubi can’t do without the very expensive option of adding and Archon and PGL.
One (almost unique) thing that really sets them apart in the DE list is the ability to hit-and-run. This should always be used if you are in combat at the end of the opponent’s turn: there is no disadvantage to failing the initiative test, and if you pass you can move on to another target or go back in for your previous opponent ... with another Furious Charge! It can even be worth using this ability in your own turn if you think the consolidation move will get you in to cover again.
At first glance, the Harlequins’ lack of dedicated transport is a disadvantage, but they suffer so badly if a vehicle explodes that it is rarely worth doing a transport swap. In fact, as they are not slowed by difficult terrain, Harlies can advance at a decent speed on foot, whilst also benefitting from great cover saves. They will not quite keep up with your skimmers, but they won’t be far behind, and have a good chance of getting to their target relatively unscathed. They can also deploy from a WWP, but suffer the same problem as everyone else – they can’t charge the turn they arrive. Nevertheless, if you buy a Shadowseer they should be able to run into cover and get a great save while they wait.
Harlequins really excel on tables with very dense terrain (Cities of Death themed, for example). Here their flip-belts let them move freely whilst a Shadowseer buffs their cover save to awesome levels.
Harlies make a great escort for independent characters, as they can share in that immense cover save. The disadvantage is, the IC slows the squad down, because he cannot ignore the difficult terrain.
If you want to use Harlequins, try this build: 4 Harlequins with Kisses, Troupe Master with Power Lance, Shadowseer [174].


KABALITE TRUEBORN
Strengths: Special weapons! The small min squad size allows you to take just the tools for the job, with a minimum of associated chaff.
Weaknesses: They are just Warriors who have 1 better A and Ld. And they’re not scoring. Despite their improved stats, they are still poor in an assault, due to their lack of survivability. If you want to hit the enemy in cc, take Wyches, Wracks or Incubi.
Upgrades: Trueborn have the same special and heavy weapons available to them as Warriors, but they can take a lot more of them. The Dracon is next to worthless – a close combat leader in a squad which should never be in an assault. He doesn’t even lift your leadership. Because you don’t want to be in assault, the plasma grenades are pointless. You could bring haywire along, but generally this squad is kept close to max range, so won’t be in a position to assault vehicles.
How to use: Choose which weapons you want, max out and then hunt your chosen target. Builds to try are:

  • Blasterborn. 4 Trueborn with Blasters in a Venom with extra cannon [173]. Thanks to their transport, the Trueborn have a threat range of 24”, and should inflict at least 0.889 penetrating hits on any vehicle. Meanwhile, the Venom can hose down any infantry you don’t like the look of. This is the one build where you might perhaps add some haywire grenades, but it is safer to sit near the edge of effective range picking at the enemy rather than close enough to land an assault.
  • Splinter Fun. 3 Trueborn with 2 Splinter Cannons, 1 Shardcarbine, in a Venom with extra Cannon [126]. Start these with Duke Sliscus as a cheap way to lay down a huge amount of anti-infantry fire.
  • Dark Lances. 3 Trueborn with 2 Dark Lances [86]. The cheapest way to get a couple of Dark Lances on the table. Sit them in good cover and snipe enemy vehicles. Per Lance, they are more expensive than a Ravager, but look like less of a threat, and can often escape enemy fire as they desperately blast away at all the cc troops rushing towards them.
  • Shredderborn. This loadout was basically never used before 6th Ed, but the removal of the vehicle damage disadvantage to AP- weapons and changes to resolving blasts against vehicles mean that these are now a viable weapon against light vehicles, whilst still being primarily anti-infantry.



HEKATRIX BLOODBRIDES
Strengths: A little better than Wyches in assault.
Weaknesses: Not scoring.
Upgrades: Bloodbrides have access to the same weapon upgrades as Wyches, but you can take more of them. And the same comments apply, ie. it’s generally better just to buy another model for the unit. A Syren brings one more attack, access to other weapons (same as a Hekatrix in a Wych squad) and the advantages of being a character, but no leadership buff.
How to use: Bloodbrides don’t hit harder than Wyches, they just hit more times. There are very few situations when it wouldn’t be better to have the cheaper, scoring unit instead. A couple of possible uses are:

  • Counter-assault. A cheap counter-assault unit in a small (~1000pt) all-shooting list. In this case, 4 Bloodbrides (1 x Hydra Gauntlets) in a Venom with extra cannon [127] can be paired with a cheap Succubus and used as a mobile reserve. Although a Wych squad this small is ineffective, the Bloodbrides have the attacks of 6 Wyches (not charging) before you add the hydra gauntlets. They are still just as vulnerable to overwatch, but shouldn’t meet any if used to bail out units already caught in a fight.
  • Cannon Fodder. Wyches don’t like overwatch. But if the enemy is already locked in combat, he can’t shoot at his new assailants. 3 Broodbrides in a Venom with extra cannon [104] can match pace with your scoring unit and charge first to take the overwatch before your more valuable, scoring, unit wades in. And if they’re fortunate enought to survive, they can mount up and repeat the whole procedure again.


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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 30 2012, 13:34

What advantages do shredderborn (never even heard of anyone using them) have over blasterborn? Cheaper yes but after that? Blaster easily beat shredders vs vehicles (light medium and heavy) and honestly vs infantry too. You're really not going to get that many models under the blast (assuming it doesn't scatter off) and even if you did any armor stops them. Blasters only hit 3ish (assuming 4 blasters) but those three all probably die (maybe only 2 if in cover) even vs MEQ/TEQ strip wounds off MCs, ect... Maybe vs guard or nids you could argue the value of a template but at that point splinter/blaster do better again. Enemy (Dark)Eldar maybe? I really just don't see the point to this option but then maybe I'm just missing it.
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Plastikente
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 30 2012, 16:04

I am probably not the best person to defend the choice of Shredderborn, as I never take them. I added them as an option after feedback from Shadows Revenge when I raised this topic on another website.

If you will excuse me reaching for my Mathhammer though, I'll have a go...
Darklight weapons get one shot. Taking into account your roll to hit, if you turn your blaster on infantry, you will get the following kill probabilities:

vs. MEQvs. TEQvs. GEQ
0.5560.3700.556
With a Shredder, you may hit several opponents. I don't know how to work out the probabilities for that, so I have just included number of hits in the table:

Hitsvs. MEQvs. TEQvs. GEQ
10.2780.1390.556
20.5560.2781.111
30.8330.4171.667
So, 1 hit on a Guardsmen will net you the same number of kills as one shot with a Blaster, 2 hits on Marines should give you the same kills as 1 Blaster shot, and 3 hits on Termies. As I said, I can't work out the probabilites of these numbers of hits, but experience with small blasts suggests that 2-3 is fairly likely.

This means that against infantry, Shredders should perform as well as Blasters, even if the enemy is armoured. Admittedly, they can't compare when you aim them at vehicles or monstrous creatures (as you won't be getting multiple hits), but they are much cheaper than Blasters.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 31 2012, 02:49

I'm going to stream-of-conscious you as I read;

Wracks

Why do you give a shoutout for Wracks to avoid assaulting into cover? Yeah, sure, they lose initiative due to a lack of grenades...but they're only I4 to begin with, so on average they go simultaneous with whatever they assault to begin with...and half their benefit is being semi-tough. :🤷: I think it's important for people to understand that they lack grenades, but at that point they're just as functional to charge through cover as almost anything else and there are a large number of opponents that it really won't make a big difference to them if they do or don't.

Also, frankly, as the unit that carries our army's flamer...they are actually a semi-optimal choice to deal with things in cover.

I would do a larger shoutout to how Wracks are rather sub-optimal as Elites and are rather good as Troops. That's a very important consideration, and you only wedge it in at the end as a personal aside. Compared to our Elites - they are provably terrible. Compared to our Troops they are unique and excellent option.

Incubi

Ruling out a Klaivex if you are escorting an IC is a little silly. There are actually a lot of rather important moments where having an additional unit that can issue/accept challenges is important to help you control the flow of battle. I'll certainly agree it's not needed - but they do still bring important gains to an IC led squad.

Why do you have an IC riding in a Venom and a unit of 5 Incubi riding in a Raider as a suggested build? Besides basic fluff reasons it i a meaningless distinction in the final analysis. With squads of 5 or less they should be choosing Venoms and Raiders based on the overall need of their army - not for really any other reason. It feels an odd decision to endorse and is not explained at all if there is logic behind it. I would advocate the phrase 'in a transport' personally.

Grots

Your WWP Grots is also a build for a delivery system, yes? I would submit Grots are decent portal carriers and, currently, rather suboptimal portal occupants.

Mandrakes

You may have overstated their usefulness Wink

Harlies

Not much to add. I suppose you might want to discuss the whole Harleystar concept...but I actually agree with you in not bothering as it's a pricey gimmick with negligible functionality in my opinion.

Trueborn

I like your defense of the Shredderborn as discussed at the tail end of the article. I will note that the big issue is really this: DE don't need to pay extra points to help kill infantry - we are already good at killing infantry. A decent build to discuss, and I'd include some of the numbers, but make sure people know what they're buying...and then ask why they don't just buy another Venom instead...and then put Blasterborn in it Wink

Bloodbrides

Sadly, Bloodbrides are probably worse now than you're letting on. I'll give you points for creativity in the suggestons, but those are all horrendous wastes of points.

---------------------

Like the ideas - well done cheers

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Smurfy
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 31 2012, 03:04

I find Harlies hardly a gimmick, and much better than Incubi or Wychs -

- They can shoot worth a cent due to the Death Jester and Melta Pistols
- They have a multitude of Special Rules to help them live from firepower. Incubi? Meh, they're not even Marines and they don't do anything outside Combat. Wychs can try to help shooting, but definitely need to charge and...with 6+ Saves, I doubt they like being Overwatch'd
- Great place for any HQ to go and hide in to help against Slay the Warlord

And many more reasons but those are the main ones.

One thing to think about ELITES as in general in 6E is to use them as fully expendable shock units (shooty or CC, mostly CC with DE ones save the Trueborn). This is because they are never Scoring and as such, usually in other Armies they are the last slot I peek at.

DE and Eldar are the exception here, IMO, as they rely heavily on their ELITES to pull the punch where it's needed and for DE, it means more Venom/Raider access. Also should be looked at least that the Trueborn can take Haywire Grenades (DE's most reliable source of anti-parking lot) so do consider them on Trueborn for "insurance" measures. Chaos Maulerfiends hate walking into a unit of Trueborn and being surprised dead thanks to them being armed with Haywires, so a simple Walker charging into a shooty unit is no longer a solution.

Silly Mushkilla thinking that just because something's more expensive = bads to save this unit from being wiped out or your army because you NEED X vehicle dead, I'm willing to pay 20 pts or less to save my lines from that Land Raider that eeped through.
~0.02.

I more think the OP hasn't put Haywires in the Trueborn portion because all the stuff he's recommending is carbon copies of lists from 5E. We're now in 6E and the Dark Eldar's oldage of MAX LANCES and VENOMS simply does_not_work anymore. How long will people take to realize this when all they see is the same thing OVER and OVER and OVER? Probably another year. When I see someone here note that Incubi do suck because they are so limited in their options in what they can do I'll be happy.

But you, the fine visitor of this site probably already realized by looking through this site that everyone plays the same thing you've tried of MAX LANCES and VENOMS and you're like "why do these people get to be successful whereas I don't? I'll tell you - Because 1 - Luck is always involved and 2 - Some people don't know how to beat DE. I myself can look right through a DE list and determine what needs to die first very easily and that IS BAD, so I'm trying to help that problem.

The more people take a "template" the more it's bad for DE, so good luck future DE players, fall into the mold this DE community has been set for you, and wonder why you lose so much when people already know what's coming because EVERY OTHER DE PLAYER DOES THE SAME AS YOU WERE TOLD TO.

~ End Mini-Rant


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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 31 2012, 15:17

Onto the article itself. Great stuff, as usual. A load of feedback as usual. Wink

Wracks

I second thor on the assaulting into cover thing, it's not that big a deal since they carry flamers that have a 50% chance to paste marines and are only I4 anyway. If anything it might be worth mentioning that they are a lot more vulnerable to sweeping advance than our other assault units (being I4).

Incubi

Again the Klaivex is really useful, even more so if you are running an archon. First he can accept challenges which stops your husktrap mass murdering archon from wasting his 6 S6 AP2 attacks on a basic squad leader.

The other use is that he can snipe models, as he is I6 and other incubi are I5. Do this by getting the klavex into base contact with the model you want to snipe and as few other models as possible, as wounds must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a model attacking at that initiative step, and only the klaivex is attacking at that step you can snipe models. Use this to take out special weapons, or models (eg: the mark of the wolfen grey hunter).

Quote :
A Wound must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with a model attacking at that Initiative step. -BRB page 25

Grotesques

The flesh gauntlet is worth considering, due to the changes to poison this edition. Firstly it's on a S5-6 model with 6 attacks on the charge, this means it's generally wounding on a 2-3 and re-rolling to wound. As it causes instant death it also ignores FNP. If you take into account that you tend to run grotesques with haemonculi (who are not great at challenges), having a T5 3W FNP model with 6 attacks that wound on a 2+ on the charge, ignore FNP, cause Instant death and re-roll to wound you have a very intimidating independent character/Monstrous creature killer. This is definitely an option worth considering if your warlord is a haemi or haemi ancient.

Quote :
Melee weapon that has the Poisoned special rule, it always wounds on a fixed number (generally shown in brackets), unless a lower result would be required, when attacking in close combat. - BRB page 40

As thor mentioned Grotesques are far better suited as portal deliverers rather than users. In my opinion they are by far our best portal deliverers.

Finally it's worth mentioning this build:

1 Succubus venom blade/power weapon
4 grotesques, liquifier, aberation, venom blade
Raider

Cheap and very very killy, the succubus get's FNP from the grotesque, as well as T5, and can also tank all the S5 or less hits in close combat with her 4++ and FNP (using look out sir for any wounds that would cause instant death onto the grots). The succubus also gives the squad I8 for sweeping advance which is fantastic. This gives you a very effective shock assault unit.

Harlequins

Again like grots I see them more as portal carriers rather than users.

An interesting fact is that five harlequins with kisses inflict the exact same number of wounds to MEQ opponents over two rounds of combat as 4 harlequins and a power spear troop master (and they both cost the same).

I think its a bad idea to equip all your harlequins with kisses, as you are bound to take one or two casualties before you make it to combat (wasting the kisses). So always leave 2-3 models without kisses and run them at the front so you can take them off as casualties.

Finally Harlequins work really well with our transports and reavers as they can both provide cover to them to get their 2+ save, in the open. This means with a bit of careful positioning they are no longer dependent on the terrain/board layout for cover.

Hope that helps. Smile

Smurfy wrote:
I find Harlies hardly a gimmick, .

I believe Thor was talking about the Harleystar, not harlequins in general.

Quote :
Also should be looked at least that the Trueborn can take Haywire Grenades.

I don't really see the value in this, other than making a expensive and fragile unit even more expensive.

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 31 2012, 15:44

Great write up, I feel you gave everything a fair analysis.

1 thing I would add is that on the Grots section the aberation takes an Extra weapon, not a weapon upgrade.

+1 to the Klaivex being it's own init. value which is also different from the Archon Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 31 2012, 16:27

Just for the record, I have tried the Grotesque Unit with the succubus in it. As the one Mushkilla suggests. And it's amazing!! I put Them in a raider with sails and go full speed against the enemy Line. Annother unit i am thinkng about using is 4 Grotesques and 2 heamonculi, 3 LG in a raider with sails. What a fearless terror!
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 31 2012, 18:15

@Scorpion - I've used that unit and it's amazing, don't forget to throw in a shattershard, nothing more amazing than a powerfully IC charging at you and telling him he has to make D3 toughness tests or be removed from play mwhahahaha.

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 02 2013, 03:07

Fantastic write up! I'd merely "considered" getting some Grots; now, I GOTTA HAVE THEM if just for the 4 grot/succubus build. I think taking a PGL on the Succubus would be worth it too. With wracks and grots both at I4, a character with a PGL works for me, because I'd be willing to go toe to toe with the average marine who also has I4 and we strike simultaneously
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 02 2013, 03:38

The Succubus can't get a PGL only the Archon can.
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 02 2013, 04:30

Thanks Murkglow....I shoulda referred back to the army list, was confusing with Hekatrix...making "assumption" if Heka could take it, a succubus could too.
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 02 2013, 08:03

Sathonyx wrote:
Thanks Murkglow....I shoulda referred back to the army list, was confusing with Hekatrix...making "assumption" if Heka could take it, a succubus could too.

If only she could, it would make her even more awesome. Succubus, venom blade, PGL, 80pts to accompany incubi... yes please. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 02 2013, 12:46

You read my mind Mushkilla, are you a Farseer? LOL
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 02 2013, 18:04

Right - feedback assimilated. I have incorporated the following points in the article text:

Wracks
  • Added comment about them being a reasonable choice to assault through cover.
  • Strengthened the statement that they make a poor elite but good troop choice.


Incubi
  • Added fact that Klaivex is useful even with IC in unit to take unwanted challenges.
  • Added use of Klaivex to snipe models due to striking at different I step.
  • Generalised the transport choices, as the point was it doesn't matter if they're in a Raider or Venom (from a unit point of view).


Grotesques
  • Made note of advantage of poisoned weapons in the hands of a Grotesque, particularly Flesh Gauntlet.
  • Noted usefulness of Grots as WWP delivery system.


Harlequins
  • Incorporated Mushkilla's comment about not taking all models with Kisses.
  • Also noted use as WWP deliverers.


I have left the Shredderborn statement as it is. I don't feel that chucking any more stats or words in will add value to the passing mention I have given them. Likewise, I have chosen not to expand the mention of HWG in the Trueborn section, because I feel I have already given the option enough screen time.

I have not mentioned pairing the Grots with a Succubus, as I already mentioned pairing a Succubus with Grots in the previous article when I considered HQs. I want to avoid double-mentioning every unit-character combo unless I see a particular reason to emphasise something.

If you disagree with any of my editorial decisions, please start the debate (I'm happy to change my position on things, if I am given good reason to). Equally, if there is anything else to be added, please do so. I want to get the finalised article posted in the master thread this weekend.

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 02 2013, 18:25

Hehe... these are starting to look like patch notes.

Quote :

Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide v1.67

-Increased the point cost of Venoms by 10.
-Scourges now have the relentless special rule.
-Added Hats.


Reads well, good job! The amount of information you cram into these things is impressive. Unit + IC makes sense and like you said it avoids repetition. Look forward to seeing the final and the draft for the next section, fast attack? Smile



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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 02 2013, 18:44

Hats! jocolor I knew I'd missed something...

Fast Attack is next - I must admit to being a bit intimidated by it. I've never had much success with Reavers or Hellions, and I've never even tried Scourges or Beasts. I'll have to have a good surf of the forums to find out how people like to play them. After all, I've never pretended that the guide is all my own wisdom

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 04 2013, 19:41

Smurfy wrote:
DE and Eldar are the exception here, IMO, as they rely heavily on their ELITES to pull the punch where it's needed and for DE, it means more Venom/Raider access. Also should be looked at least that the Trueborn can take Haywire Grenades (DE's most reliable source of anti-parking lot) so do consider them on Trueborn for "insurance" measures. Chaos Maulerfiends hate walking into a unit of Trueborn and being surprised dead thanks to them being armed with Haywires, so a simple Walker charging into a shooty unit is no longer a solution.

Silly Mushkilla thinking that just because something's more expensive = bads to save this unit from being wiped out or your army because you NEED X vehicle dead, I'm willing to pay 20 pts or less to save my lines from that Land Raider that eeped through.
~0.02.

My question to you here to you is why would you chance your blasterborn fighting a maulerfiend in close combat anyway??? 4 trueborn w/ haywires are only going to take 1 HP off of him, and he does have It Will Not Die to get that back. Why not allow our regular haywire caddies (wyches) charge it instead? Also how a maulerfiend ended up in your lines if you followed the old addage of "more darklight, the better"

Quote :
I more think the OP hasn't put Haywires in the Trueborn portion because all the stuff he's recommending is carbon copies of lists from 5E. We're now in 6E and the Dark Eldar's oldage of MAX LANCES and VENOMS simply does_not_work anymore. How long will people take to realize this when all they see is the same thing OVER and OVER and OVER? Probably another year. When I see someone here note that Incubi do suck because they are so limited in their options in what they can do I'll be happy.

But you, the fine visitor of this site probably already realized by looking through this site that everyone plays the same thing you've tried of MAX LANCES and VENOMS and you're like "why do these people get to be successful whereas I don't? I'll tell you - Because 1 - Luck is always involved and 2 - Some people don't know how to beat DE. I myself can look right through a DE list and determine what needs to die first very easily and that IS BAD, so I'm trying to help that problem.

The more people take a "template" the more it's bad for DE, so good luck future DE players, fall into the mold this DE community has been set for you, and wonder why you lose so much when people already know what's coming because EVERY OTHER DE PLAYER DOES THE SAME AS YOU WERE TOLD TO.

~ End Mini-Rant

Ah... so you dont take max dark lances??? well theres your problem... We may "template" our army, but we use what works. Falling for this knee jerk reaction of 6th by having 2x squads of 20 warriors because "thats the way 6th is played" is just asking to fail. DE arent about being able to out grind the opponent. We are a speed and hard hiting army. Our transports and elites allow us to do just that. It is in our nature as an army, and if you dont like it, then this might not be the army for you.

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 04 2013, 20:54

Quote :
Sadly, Bloodbrides are probably worse now than you're letting on. I'll give you points for creativity in the suggestons, but those are all horrendous wastes of points.

Why so? They are still very cheap for the Venom they allow to bring. Something like squad of 3 with Syren/Agoniser is a good suplement for any assault and cost little less then 70 points. If you are not filling Elite slots they are a choice.

They probably wont draw to much fire either.

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 05 2013, 02:24

Show me the army build that makes sense with them and I'll retract the statement. But if you want to suicide an Elite slot then we have better ways of doing it.

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 05 2013, 14:37

Smurfy wrote:
Silly Mushkilla thinking that just because something's more expensive = bads to save this unit from being wiped out or your army because you NEED X vehicle dead, I'm willing to pay 20 pts or less to save my lines from that Land Raider that eeped through.
~0.02.

But only an inexperience opponent would send a land raider near a unit with haywire grenades, arguably making them a good deterrent. But why not use cheaper wyches in that case?

Blasterborn don't need them as they are already a significant threat to vehicles, and will get taken out early into the game.

As for giving splinter born duality I don't think it's worth it, they are already expensive enough, and with the shift to objective based missions they are a lot less viable as warriors are cheaper and scoring.

So I don't really see why haywire grenades on trueborn are a must. But if you get good use out of them all the more power to you! At the end of the day we are individuals, there is no one size fits all, and that's what I like about this series of guides is that they give you a good general overview without ramming a particular play-style down your throat.

Smurfy wrote:
by looking through this site that everyone plays the same thing

It's a shame you feel that way, and in my experience it couldn't be further from the truth.

A perfect example is this army list, inspired by posts the author read on these forum. Does that look anything like venom spam or lance spam?

Smurfy wrote:
so I'm trying to help that problem.

I don't think insulting someone who has put in a huge amount of time into writing a great guide is particularly helpful or nice. Or for that matter belittling a fantastic community, that if anything is very open minded and actively encourages players to experiment.

I hope in time you will come to see The Dark City for the friendly and inspiring community that it is. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 05 2013, 14:39

OK, so let's talk Bloodbrides ;-)

They are 30% moor expensive then regular wyches have 25% more attacks on the charge and 33% more attacks in the subsequent phases. They can have 1 special weapon for every 3 instead of every 5, which makes a great difference. I'll explain.

If you want to use either of them with a character, you'll only be able to field 9 or 4(if you want them mobil) and my experience is, that with 9 they shine.
That is because they can still take 3 special weapons and even thou I agree that for the two offensive weapons is better to take an additional body, the S&I can really make a difference when you have 3 of them.
They are a very good defence for your archon, as you can lower the attacks of models that can hit the archon by placing the S&I next to the archon. And the siren with an agoniser comes along with 5 attacks, buffed with CD she will be hitting pretty hard.

I often use this squad for an archon as they have enough hitting power not to overkill a unit but to damage it enough.

But that's just me ;-)

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 05 2013, 15:13

Thor665 wrote:
Show me the army build that makes sense with them and I'll retract the statement. But if you want to suicide an Elite slot then we have better ways of doing it.

I had some decent runs with 9 bloodbrides w/ 3 hydra gauntlets, a Syrien w/ agoniser, and a succubus w/ agoniser. It was super expensive, but atleast they could kill, unlike wyches. Through doom in, and they even chewed through a paliestar


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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 05 2013, 18:43

Shadows Revenge wrote:
I had some decent runs with 9 bloodbrides w/ 3 hydra gauntlets, a Syrien w/ agoniser, and a succubus w/ agoniser. It was super expensive, but atleast they could kill, unlike wyches. Through doom in, and they even chewed through a paliestar

I was questioning the minimal suicide squads of Bloodbrides.

I'll admit I don't think big squads of them are all that great either due to cost, but I can't argue that they can be fairly killy and certainly more killy than Wyches.

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 3 - Elites I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 05 2013, 18:54

It sounds like at least some people favour large Bloodbride units then, so I'll add one of those to the suggested builds, with a little explanatory text,

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