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 Newby Facing Tau for first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE

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Dogmar
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Dogmar

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PostSubject: Re: Newby Facing Tau for first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE   Newby Facing Tau for  first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 09:08

First of all I think the list looks solid, not sure about the talos but other than that sound choices.

Unfotunately I don't have the Tau dex nor do I play them on a regular basis with my DE, but still there are some things that strike me as odd:

First the lack of terrain. 40k is not meant to be played in a desert with close to no terrain at all. There is a section of the rulebook dedicated to how much terrain there should be and how to deploy it and DE really suffer from a lack of terrain because it's not a great idea to just stand in the middle of the field trying to outgun everyone. We need mobility and cover.

While disruption pods are a real pain the the lower back, but as far as I'm aware there is no upgrade that allows them to split fire/fire twice/count as fast (unless they already do from the get go, again no dex at hand).

I'm sure others can chime in and give more qualified advice, but other than your rubber lance syndrome these 2 things above strike me.

cheers
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Plastikente
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PostSubject: Re: Newby Facing Tau for first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE   Newby Facing Tau for  first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 09:18

It sounds like you need more terrain, and a different mission. You will not be able to beat Tau on an empty table, particularly if he can get away with just sitting back and shooting you. Without judging a guy I've never met, it sounds rather like he has 1 tactic - sit behind the aegis line and shoot. So choose a mission where he has to do something else. Play for objectives and space them out so he has to come out of his castle if he wants to win.
If he "insists" on purge the alien, why don't you insist on a different mission (or rolling a random one)? If he's not willing(/capable) of playing any other mission, then he's not worth your time to try to beat.

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Shadows Revenge
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Shadows Revenge

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PostSubject: Re: Newby Facing Tau for first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE   Newby Facing Tau for  first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 14:06

@Dogmar wrote:
While disruption pods are a real pain the the lower back, but as far as I'm aware there is no upgrade that allows them to split fire/fire twice/count as fast (unless they already do from the get go, again no dex at hand).

I'm sure others can chime in and give more qualified advice, but other than your rubber lance syndrome these 2 things above strike me.

cheers

Their tanks can become fast for relatively cheap, and their suits have an upgrade that allows them to split fire...

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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: Newby Facing Tau for first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE   Newby Facing Tau for  first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 14:19

The Multi-Tracker is the upgrade that makes his vehicles Fast while Target Lock is the upgrade that lets him split fire. Anyway, yeah trying to out shoot Tau is a pretty tough feat. You're going to really need to make use of terrain/speed to close on him and hit him from the flanks and/or attack his army one piece at a time with all of yours.
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Braseye
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PostSubject: Re: Newby Facing Tau for first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE   Newby Facing Tau for  first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 14:49

6th edition has been good to the Tau with the changes to rapid fire, it has made what they were always supposed to be; fast, mobile fire power. The WILL out gun DE, even with their mediocre ballistic skill and their vehicles are some of the most durable in the game which have incredible fire power, which with the right war gear can target separate units.

I play both Tau and DE (also Tyranids) and Tau is definitely a difficult match for us as our strengths are, largely wasted on them. A major strength of DE is that they care not a jot for high toughness models, Tau have none, so most other basic infantry weapons hurt them on 3+; we wound on a 4+. Another strength of Tau is that they have a decent 4+ armour save on the troops. So they get a save versus most of our AI fire. Sad
Also rail guns will just have to look at our vehicles to destroy them (auto pens on venoms and raiders and +3 to damage rolls is enough to make even the most jaded archon shed a tear.)


However, Tau are a synergistic army, remove the synergy elements (marker lights) and it will reduce their overall effectiveness. Also they are horrible at CC so get in close as fast as possible and engage them. Learn to love turbo boosting and hug the cover like a long lost brother.

I recently played my friend who was using my DE, and I, using my Tau. Reaver jet bikes proved to be very potent as lots of bladevane and cluster caltrops started to tare up my gun lines, honestly run at least one 6 man team of these. Getting Wyches down the field ASAP is important too, watch and laugh as these ladies chop up fire warriors into small pieces, and this is what the did to my Fire warriors.

I would take some scourges and razor wings to get behind his lines to deliver killing blows to troop squads and vehicles.

In summary, get close fast, get as many boots on the ground as possible to provide target saturation, take out key units (marker lights, Hammerheads) ASAP. Haywire up the Wyches to bring down vehicles, don't worry about tooling up an Archon as you will crush any Tau unit in CC anyway. Try to take down their army piecemeal, get those pain tokens fast and reduce the fire power of Tau.
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Dogmar
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Dogmar

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PostSubject: Re: Newby Facing Tau for first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE   Newby Facing Tau for  first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 19:03

Thanks for the heads up on Tau rules, I thought he was splitting fire / firing twice with his tanks, namely railgun which of course is not possible. Good to know what the suits can do.

Gameplay-wise I think Braseyes advice is very good. Again: you need terrain and maybe something other than killpoints.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Newby Facing Tau for first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE   Newby Facing Tau for  first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 19:06

I stopped at "3 ravagers, talos" personally.

I feel the advice I gave earlier is applicable to the situation discussed later. Kill Points don't matter - it's not actually that big of a deal. Just table him. I know that sounds dismissive, but it isn't meant to be - close the distance, get into his lines, and eat face.

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Shadowfield84
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PostSubject: Re: Newby Facing Tau for first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE   Newby Facing Tau for  first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 23:19

Well I did try to get up the table and into his face, my problem was that he hid behind an aegis defence line and by the time I hugged cover and got in there he blew up my raiders and I lost mass casualties (he was rolling like a demon). To be honest I'm not sure why I brought the talos, I think it was more as a distraction to draw fire away from my wych boats, it worked for a turn until he died swiftly!!

Anyways, in short I think I will insist upon playing something other than 'purge the alien'. It's not really a fun game when all he is doing is hiding behind a wall and auto-penning my paper aeroplanes...
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Newby Facing Tau for first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE   Newby Facing Tau for  first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Jan 11 2013, 23:51

Why were you hugging cover versus Tau?
Does he not run markerlights?

Because the only cover that is worth anything versus Tau is cover that prevents you even being shot at. Otherwise speed is pretty good, because it only gives him one round of shooting and still gives you cover saves.

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Shadowfield84
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PostSubject: Re: Newby Facing Tau for first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE   Newby Facing Tau for  first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSat Jan 12 2013, 00:04

Sorry I should have said line of sight blocking terrain. I basically came down the right flank and gave him almost no line of sight, except to the talos who he shot to death. I only exposed my ravagers to shoot at the one hammerhead who survived 9 lance shots, than he moved his squadron of 3 piranhas out and melta shot my raiders, killing half the occupants. The surviving wyches and my heat lanced reavers did wreck face and took all of his tanks, but swiftly died to rapid fire from fire warriors. By then the damage was done and he had taken to many kill points...

Edit: to be fair I'm not to familiar with squadron rules, seems pretty sucky 3 vehicles are worth 1 kill point...
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Sathonyx
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PostSubject: Re: Newby Facing Tau for first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE   Newby Facing Tau for  first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 13 2013, 07:26

Well, after reading all this advise, I got my 2000 pt game in vs my buddy's Tau. We had the regular deployment and the scenario where fast attack are scoring units. We had the objectives mission, 1 worth 4, 2 worth 3, 2 worth 2 and 1 worth 1. I lost 8-0 ! We each placed 3 objectives and I put 2 in his deployment zone, leaving only 1 in mine. 4 were in his d-zone and a 5th was just outside it. We rolled a D3 for each 2 foot square of board. I ended up with 1-3-1 and he rolled 2-3-2 for pieces of terrain. A short lived saving grace was going first.
I'd taken 3 units of 3 reavers each, which I continuously zig-zagged through his d-zone and units, targeting his pathfinders first, actually getting 4 of 10 by multiple bladevane. I quickly realized I didn't have enough shooting, going almost complete assault.
Heres what I took: 10 wyches w/2 hydra gaunt, Hek w/pgl & power lance in Raider (2 units like this), 9 wracks w/1 liqu gun + Haemi w/Liqu gun in raider. 4 Grotesques w/1 liqu gun and Haemi w/Liqu gun in raider. 4 Incubi w/ Archon in Venom. 3 Ravagers.
As I looked across left to right in his d-zone he had all his terrain on forward edge of his d-zone: General w/ 2 "bodyguards" in jump suits all with missile launchers/flamers 2 shield drones for general, 10 fire warriors on battlements of 4 story ruins, 8-10 pathfinders in low level of 2 story ruins, 10 fire warrior honor guard w/Ethereal behind a 4+ defensive wall, 8-10 fire warriors in a forest behind them, 10 fire warriors in a trench line, 2 battlesuits w/twin-linked rail guns on Battlements of 3 story ruins, hammerhead on ground, 10 fire warriors behind their tansport.
Turn 1 I flew both wych unit raiders into his deployment zone. He promptly blew one up and killed all the wyches. He wrecked the other, leaving me with 6/10 wyches when shooting ended. They killed 1 warrior unitin trench, only to get shot up. My Haemi/wrack unit went after his general and 2 bodyguard jumpers. He wrecked that raider w/general and 2 bodygurd missle launchers but 8/9 wracks lived, until he used the same guys to flamer them, which I didn't know he could do. His ethereal Ld 10 in his center kept him from running. My archon general killed his general, but were left in open. It was all down hill. When it was over turn 5 I had 6/9 reavers left, the 4 grots w/haemi, archon w/1 Incubi. I killed 7/10 pathfinders, 1 unit of 10 fire warriors, his jump general w/2 bodyguard jumpers. I couldn't get past his cover saves mixed w/shield drones and disruption pods on vehicles. He had 8 points of objective markers to my zero (0). My dice did no favors either. 1st hit on my archon I rolled a 1 to lose his shadowfield, so was shocked he survived the battle. He also got all 3 of my ravagers.
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Plastikente
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PostSubject: Re: Newby Facing Tau for first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE   Newby Facing Tau for  first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeSun Jan 13 2013, 11:02

@Sathonyx wrote:
Well, after reading all this advise, I got my 2000 pt game in vs my buddy's Tau. We had the regular deployment and the scenario where fast attack are scoring units. We had the objectives mission, 1 worth 4, 2 worth 3, 2 worth 2 and 1 worth 1. I lost 8-0 ! We each placed 3 objectives and I put 2 in his deployment zone, leaving only 1 in mine. 4 were in his d-zone and a 5th was just outside it. We rolled a D3 for each 2 foot square of board. I ended up with 1-3-1 and he rolled 2-3-2 for pieces of terrain. A short lived saving grace was going first.
Well, that's better than letting him castle in his DZ on an empty board. Think carefully about the placement of objectives. Usually I would advise placing some in his DZ because you want to run in to attack him anyway, but bearing in mind that he likes to stand and shoot it might be better to try to place as many as possible well away from his starting postion to make him move.

Quote :

I'd taken 3 units of 3 reavers each, which I continuously zig-zagged through his d-zone and units, targeting his pathfinders first, actually getting 4 of 10 by multiple bladevane. I quickly realized I didn't have enough shooting, going almost complete assault.
Heres what I took: 10 wyches w/2 hydra gaunt, Hek w/pgl & power lance in Raider (2 units like this), 9 wracks w/1 liqu gun + Haemi w/Liqu gun in raider. 4 Grotesques w/1 liqu gun and Haemi w/Liqu gun in raider. 4 Incubi w/ Archon in Venom. 3 Ravagers.
That list looks reasonable to me, and I wouldn't agree that you "didn't have enough shooting", but we all have different styles of play.

Quote :

Turn 1 I flew both wych unit raiders into his deployment zone. He promptly blew one up and killed all the wyches. He wrecked the other, leaving me with 6/10 wyches when shooting ended.
Seems like a reasonable tactic, but sometimes luck just isn't on your side. You have to be intelligent about where you fly to - try to use available cover to minimise number of units who can see (and shoot you). Remember that if he has to shoot through his own unit, or one of yours, to reach the target then you get a cover save. When vehicles explode they leave a crater behind, and if they're wrecked they remain on the table - both these options provide cover for the passengers who have to get out.

Quote :

They killed 1 warrior unitin trench, only to get shot up.

Always a risk. Try to use consolidation after an assault, and remember that after wiping a unit you get FnP.

Quote :
My Haemi/wrack unit went after his general and 2 bodyguard jumpers. He wrecked that raider w/general and 2 bodygurd missle launchers but 8/9 wracks lived, until he used the same guys to flamer them, which I didn't know he could do.
He can't. Last paragraph of the transport rules (BFB p.80). A single squad cannot fire on a vehicle and then the occupants in one turn.

Quote :
When it was over turn 5 I had 6/9 reavers left, the 4 grots w/haemi, archon w/1 Incubi. I killed 7/10 pathfinders, 1 unit of 10 fire warriors, his jump general w/2 bodyguard jumpers.
How did you not take out the pathfinders? They should have been a priority target to assault.

Quote :
I couldn't get past his cover saves mixed w/shield drones and disruption pods on vehicles. He had 8 points of objective markers to my zero (0).
He gets no cover saves in an assault. It sounds like you're still trying to beat Tau by out-shooting them, which is a hard trick to pull off. And from the kill tally it doesn't sound quite as one-sided as the scoreline makes it look.

I wonder about your overall tactics - a reasonable way to deal with his deployment (from the sound of things) would be a flank attack. You move all of your units flat out in the first turn to get right up one board edge. When you're this far forward, his own units will interfere with his LOS, and he would have to be very lucky to down all of your transports in 1 turn of shooting. You then assault one end of his line, and roll along. In general, DE win by using our manouevrability to gang up on portions of his force whilst preventing him from bringing all of his firepower to bear.

Keep trying - as long as you walk away from every loss with some lessons then it wasn't a waste of your time Very Happy

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Sathonyx
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PostSubject: Re: Newby Facing Tau for first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE   Newby Facing Tau for  first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2013, 18:05

I'm not concerned with winning or loosing at this stage (it was only my 4th game in 6th ed after being gone since 3rd ed) as long as I learn from every mistake. I did forget my pain token for the wyches after wiping out the fire warriors in trench. But there was so much incoming fire after my consolidation, it wouldn't have mattered enough. I was relying on my 3x3 reaver units to bladevane the pathfinders instead of straight up assault on them. Going first, and therefore deploying first, it didn't make sense to pile all I had on one side when I didn't know where his stuff would be after his deployment. I questioned his general with body guard unit using the missile launchers to down the wrack raider and then use their flamers on the wracks, but he said they had some special rule or upgrade that allowed it, so I didn't ask to see the rule (we've been friends for 8 years). 1 of my 3 ravagers had dis cannons and shot up one fire warrior unit like 6/10, but they didn't run cuz they had LoS to his Ethereal Ld10. The frustrating part was 2 broadsides w/rail guns and shield drones on battlements. He gets the 4+ cover save on the 2 drones that have to be taken out, before the broadsides with 4+ cover saves were affected. Trying to make that happen is what cost me my 2 ravagers with dark lances. I know there's no cover save in assault, but his fire warriors are 4+ AS to my 6+/4+ wych dodge save. He made alot of saves and my rolls for my 2 hydra gauntlet attacks stunk at 1 & 3. I learned alot, so not a lost cause, just frustration with cover/drone/disrupt pods/Ethereal Ld unlimited (LoS)range
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Newby Facing Tau for first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE   Newby Facing Tau for  first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2013, 21:28

When setting up first versus Tau you literally only have two options.

1. Set up dead center of the board and muscle the deployment line - that way no matter where he sets up you should be able to assault him by Turn 2.

2. Live in fear that he'll seize and cower behind what blocking terrain you have.

I would also advise not living in any fear of Tau 4+ armor saves in h2h combat.

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Sathonyx
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PostSubject: Re: Newby Facing Tau for first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE   Newby Facing Tau for  first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Jan 14 2013, 23:51

Knowing I was going first, I set up for all out assault and was willing to accept consequences of him seizing initiative. I didn't have fear of Tau 4+ AS for fire warriors, but got very frustrated at the number of saves he made on all the hits & wounds my wyches threw at the warriors. I got +1WS for my drugs, so was WS5, was hitting on 3+ and wounding on 4+. His fire warriors (WS2) were hitting back on 5+ and wounding on 4+ having only 1A each. Mathhammer went right out the window....LOL. Excellent dice day for him, crap dice day for me....which is another subject. I'm 60 years old and fart dust. I did 28 years in American army special forces (Vietnam, Bader-Meinhof Gang with GSG-9, Lebanon, Desert Storm) so can safely say I have some grip on tactics. The difference is that in all those situations, I knew the enemy's capabilities. Being fresh back to 40K after so long, I'm starting from square one all over again. So, I hope all here will tolerate my ignorance of enemies until I'm "caught up".
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Newby Facing Tau for first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE   Newby Facing Tau for  first time, NEED HELP/ADVISE - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Jan 15 2013, 08:12

To be honest I wouldn't underestimate tau fire warriros and their 4+ saves, they can be really annoying sometimes, on the bright side it means you are more likely to stay in combat for two turns, which is always a good thing. Did you throw a plasma grenade before charging? At S4 AP4 they are the bee's-knees against fire warriors.

I think because our units are S3 T3 and have 5-6+ saves assault is always risky business in 6th edition. I only tend to commit to close combat if I'm sure I can overpower my opponent, or If ibelieve it will keep safe from the ranged threats of the rest of their army.

@Sathonyx wrote:
I did 28 years in American army special forces (Vietnam, Bader-Meinhof Gang with GSG-9, Lebanon, Desert Storm) so can safely say I have some grip on tactics. The difference is that in all those situations, I knew the enemy's capabilities.

In my experience I found Dark Eldar are like space mongols in terms of tactics.

Mongol reavers. Bladevanes Ho!

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