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 Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???

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alexwellace
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PostSubject: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 27 2012, 18:36

Well i have a friend who likes to win and as such uses a cheesy tactic of Mordric with his ghost knights using his first into the frey ability with a storm raven to get get it in first turn without scatter and he CAN do this. I aint complaining about that cheeseness either, hes playing grey knights, i knew what i was getting into. But anyway i was thinking for ways to beat this storm raven but my razorwing i need with dissies to take out the stupid amount of 2+ saves so i went straight to my eldar allies for help.

In the game i will have 3 scatterwalkers but at strength 6 i carnt hope to really win and i need them to save eldrad. As the grey knights have a deep grudge against him and he will try kill him first turn, meaning he wil be close. Thats where this idea came from, look at the wording of eldrich storm ''Vehicals touched by the template.....and are spun around to face the direction directed by a scatter dice'' and the wording of Hard to hit ''flyers carnt be hit by blasts or templates.''

So if i aimed eldrich storm at the raven (if im alowed) i could still spin it even though the hit doesnt happen, the secondary effect has no reason not to. I could even make an argument for the first effect because its not worded as a direct hit from the template but as an effect for as it says ''any vehical touched suffers a hit with 2d6+3 penetration'' as the hit is coursed by being touched by the template but i wouldnt really use that, but back to the other idea.

Spinning a flyer in the other direction is a big thing and can really help me mess up his plans as he can only rotate 90 degrees, so whats your verdict?

P.S. I know its not nice and i probs wouldn't do it normally but he plays grey knights! C'mon, its not like he doesnt deserve it Smile


Last edited by alexwellace on Fri Dec 28 2012, 00:43; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 27 2012, 23:44

Couple of things:

That Modrak thing is rather controversial and hinges on whether or not Modrak "accompanies" the Stormraven. RAW there is no definition for "accompanies", so technically his rule does nothing unless he is on his own. I'd be nice enough to let my opponent use the rule with ghost knights and an attached IC, but if he tried the Stormraven thing I'd insist he followed strict RAW. But I guess you're nice enough to let him slide.

As far as the ES thing goes, it works...sort of. It should get spun if the template touches it (for the reasons you stated), but you'd need another nearby unit to shoot at since the latest FAQ prevents you from even targeting a flyer with a blast weapon:

Quote :
Q: How do maelstroms, novasand beams– or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyersand Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.(p22)

A quad gun with a Fire Dragon Exarch could go a long way in discouraging this tactic though, as he's got a pretty decent chance of taking the SR down as it shows up.

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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 28 2012, 00:16

As Bugs_N_Orks said his tactic is rather on the fringe of legality, because by the rules he can't accompany the Stormraven.

For your tactic I must dissent, though. What does 'touching a vehicle' mean? It certainly doesn't mean to actually touch the vehicle with the template, but to hit it, by it being under the template. And as the FAQ and BRB state a zooming flyer can't be hit by those attacks and is considered to not be under the template.

But hey, if he insists, that Mordrak accompanies the Stormraven, just physically touch it with the template.

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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 28 2012, 00:42

Well i was just on Dakka and went to see if he really could do his tactic, but as soon as people started argueing dictionary deffinitions i really couldn't be bothered reading it. But we agree that if it scatters on the raven we can spin it? Because it says touched not hit, one could also say that he is also hit wiht the 2d6 +3 also because it says touch not hit, but i dont even think i buy that....

And if he says no ill kindly point out Mordric isn't an IC which no one in my store has noticed yet, then he wont ever be able to do his tactic with paladins ever again which he pulls in every apoc game!!! Twisted Evil

P,S Whats the difference between targetting and hitting in this editition. There was a big one last editition because if you targetted my raider because of nightfields you are out, you couldnt hit and the shots where lost. so this editition is really taboo to target the flyer with the blast, even though i have no chance to really HIT it?
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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 28 2012, 01:20

The problem is that 'touch' is as much undefined, as is 'accompany'. I don't know, if it was a common term in 4th, when the Eldar codex was written, but today I'd interpret it as: a model is touched by a template, if it is under the template and is hit by the attack.
As zooming flyers can never be hit nor even targeted by any attack, that uses a template, blast, beam or any other auto-hit mechanic it is at least questionable, if it can be touched by a template, when it is considered to be not under it for all other purposes.

The difference between targeting and hitting is small, but sometimes essential. A model that can't be hit by a certain attack can still be targeted, so you can resolve the attack and all it's consequences, but will miss automatically. If you can't target something you aren't even allowed to try.
You for example can shoot at a target you can't hit, because it's out of range, to use a searchlight. Though you will never hit the target you can still illuminate it. If you can't target it you can't shoot and aren't allowed to use the searchlight.

In this case you aren't allowed to target the Stormraven with eldritch storm, because it is a shooting attack with the large blast special rule and those can neither target, nor hit zooming flyers.

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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 28 2012, 02:00

@Tiri Rana wrote:
You for example can shoot at a target you can't hit, because it's out of range, to use a searchlight. Though you will never hit the target you can still illuminate it. If you can't target it you can't shoot and aren't allowed to use the searchlight.

I'd like to point out that in 6th this doesn't work anymore:
Quote :
At least one weapon must be in range
of the target unit. If no weapons are in range, then a different
target must be chosen.
so you need to have one gun in range to seachlight something
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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 28 2012, 02:19

Yes, I overlooked that passage. Lets rephrase it.
If you are allowed to target a unit you can apply certain effects, regardless if you hit or not. You can for example use a searchlight to illuminate a target, if you hit it before or not doesn't matter. If you aren't allowed to target said unit in the first place, because it is out of range, more than 36" away under night fighting conditions, it's a zooming flyer / swooping MC and you only have template/blast weapons and so on you can't use the desired effect.

Important is that shots can't be lost anymore, because you check range before firing and can change your target if the first one is out of range.

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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 28 2012, 03:35

I would certainly disagree with your opponent regarding Mordric being able to alter the deep strike of a Storm Raven. It simply is not a unit he is accompanying, period (in fact since he is not an independent character the only unit he can accompany is his Ghost Knights, otherwise he's a single model unit). It might be a vehicles he is embarked on but that's not the same thing. Nothing I see in the rules supports this in the least. By the same token I would disagree with your attempt to get Eldritch Storm to work on a flyer. Flyers are very much called out as not being able to be affected by templates/other effects that don't roll to hit and this very much falls under that.
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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 28 2012, 09:32

Buts the spin effect isnt a hit, its an effect of being touched by the template which the raven has no defense against. i think this comes down to how we interperate the word 'touch', im using it as if you can physicaly touch it with the template, you takes the effects of eldrich storm. Its not a hit, because it makes no use of the word hit until the 2d6+3 armour pen bit, so id say that bit is ignored, but the part that isnt a hit there is nothing in the rules that says he is immune.

'A flyer carn't be hit by templates'. It quite simple, and clear cut, templates cannont hit flyers and there fore carnt course conventional damage. Imagine if Bob the guardsmen had this rule ''bob carnt be hit by templates'' and then his unit is hit by a thunderfire cannon, he would still take the secondary effect of moving through terrain right? Probs a bad example. i got a better one. While i find it in need of an FAQ until then i states if i can touch your raven you take the spin effect
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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 28 2012, 11:17

Yes, I guess it would depend on ones definition of touched by a template. If it is the same as being under the template a zooming flyer can't be affected, if not it can.

Just keep in mind that you still can't target a zooming flyer with eldritch storm, so have to find something else to center the template on and hope it deviates onto the stormraven.

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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 28 2012, 12:07

Unfortunately it doesn't work. As mentioned before the rules are quite clear on this.

Rather than stoop to the same pathetic level as your opponent you are better off finding someone else to play. He's only wasting your time. Cheating to beat cheaters is just not worth it. He'll come crawling back when he has no one left to play. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 28 2012, 18:47

@Mushkilla wrote:
Unfortunately it doesn't work. As mentioned before the rules are quite clear on this.

Rather than stoop to the same pathetic level as your opponent you are better off finding someone else to play. He's only wasting your time. Cheating to beat cheaters is just not worth it. He'll come crawling back when he has no one left to play. Very Happy

I dont see either way as cheating, at least not intentionally as i see no reason why the effect wouldnt work and i carnt find the rule saying mordric carnt do his with his stormbuggie.

I played the game today and i won cheers but only due to the extream luck of my friends small army. i have 1,500pts and he plays 2k to i had help from a friend new to the hobby, dont regret it for a second! he alowed me to do it but only after making me ask around at at 2 for and 1 against i span his buggie (he always deploys ghost knights just by the raven so i hit it with a tiny scatter) so it had to fly off bored but more importantly it turned its back armour to my friends scout missile who has already racked up a tally of a dead dred in 1 shot. That scout preceeded to stuff the buggie in 1 shot, his dice where really on fire!

It was a fun game and ended close and we only won cause fast attack could score and reavers took a far off obj as well as making a chain to get line braker.

Anyway people thought that since it said touch and not hit, the spin effect would still work. As long as my store is ok with this im happy Very Happy ...well until the FAQ.
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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 28 2012, 19:56

@alexwellace wrote:
i carnt find the rule saying mordric carnt do his with his stormbuggie.

Your opponent needs to show that he CAN do this, not the other way around. Meaning he has to prove that Modrak "accompanies" the Stormraven. Since "accompanies" isn't actually defined in either the GK codex, rulebook, or any of the FAQs, that's impossible to prove, so RAW First to the Fray does not function unless Modrak is DSing in by himself. Nowhere in the rules is it stated that embarked=accompanies, if you choose to House Rule that it does I'm sure your opponent won't argue. But saying FttF works on the Stormraven makes about as much sense as saying it works on the entire army, after all in a literal sense Modrak "accompanies" the rest of the army into battle.
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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 28 2012, 20:40

accompanies, was defined in previous editions as joining the unit (as they are now full blown members of the unit and before they were not) just as "touching" was used in the definition for hitting with a template because their was a distinction between how covered the model was.

But lets ignore that for now, If you want to say that "Accompanies" does not mean joining and therefore you want to let him do that it's your loss but I would say if he's argueing "Accompanies is undefined" then the ability is unuseable under any circumstances from that view point. Templates on the other hand actually have there own section in the begining of the book saying how they are used, then seperately have rules on how they work as a shooting attack.

Here is your problem, the templates actually say to hold it over the models in the BRB so at no point are you physically touching them and your definately not hitting the stormraven because that was made clear. So if your not physically touching them and your not hitting them, then how can you argue gaining the effect?

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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 28 2012, 22:28

Just re-read the blast rules and it says ''hold over an enemy unit...then look through to see how many models bases lie underneath. A unit takes a hit for each model that is fully or partially underneath the template.'' and the flyer rule states clearly ''flyers carnt be hit by templates.'' To me that would say you ignore the hits from being under the template, not ignoring the template itself, but usually templates have no other effect then to course hits, this one does.

If it said ''flyers are immune to the effects of templates'' fine but right now it says they carnt be hit. I am not hitting it, i am spinning it beecause you are partially under or touched by the template. You do not ignore the template, you ignore the hit caused by the template.

I am argueing that because you are under the template you would take a hit, you ignore said hit because templates carnt HIT you, if you are a vehical i can also spin you in the direction of a scatter die, you do not ignore the effect because it is not a hit, it is caused by being under the template, which you are.

At any rate can you see why i would think i can do this? Or am i completely cheating and being maliceful, and trying to win at all costs?
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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 28 2012, 22:44

@alexwellace wrote:
Or am i completely cheating and being maliceful, and trying to win at all costs?

This, sorry to call you out on it. But it's just your friends bad playing habits rubbing off on you. You're trying to bend the rules to create a crutch in order to win a game, the exact same way he has been doing. The problem is once you start playing other people, is that they won't give you that crutch to lean on, and suddenly you can't stand.

Since when did winning 40k come down to who was the best rules lawyer? You should beat him by being a better general, not desperately trying to find some loop hole or gimmick that doesn't hold water.

At least that's how I see it. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 28 2012, 23:21

@Mushkilla wrote:
@alexwellace wrote:
Or am i completely cheating and being maliceful, and trying to win at all costs?

This, sorry to call you out on it. But it's just your friends bad playing habits rubbing off on you. You're trying to bend the rules to create a crutch in order to win a game, the exact same way he has been doing. The problem is once you start playing other people, is that they won't give you that crutch to lean on, and suddenly you can't stand.

Since when did winning 40k come down to who was the best rules lawyer? You should beat him by being a better general, not desperately trying to find some loop hole or gimmick that doesn't hold water.

At least that's how I see it. Smile

Well honestly, since i started playing wood elves vs daemon meta gamer in fantasy Laughing , but thats not the point, in 40k i play for fun. Yous hould see my army list, utterly terrible....1 raider! Its not a gimmick either, if its useable, which i see no reason for it not to be, it is a tool i can use just as much as any other and slot it into my plan, whats not general-y (tactical) about that? Also we dont see what he is doing as cheating (well the gaming group as a whole...) or bending the rules so can we leave that bit. Its not about Mordric, its about if a wave of night scythes come in and my storm scatters onto them, can i or can i not use the spin effect to send the flyers, well....flying. I can find nowhere in the rules that says i carnt and unless i do find it then im not ''bending the rules'' or ''using crutches'' but am using the effect of eldrich storm.

Anyhow ive created a topic on dakka, so knowing that site the problem will be over soon, one way or the other.
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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 29 2012, 10:46

@alexwellace wrote:
if its useable, which i see no reason for it not to be

It's not. That's the problem. For a start you hold the template over the models, it never touches them. The eldar codex is merely using touch synonymously with hit, as in 40k they mean the same thing, otherwise eldrich storm would have no effect on any vehicle as the template never touches them (held over the model). Again in this case touch and hit are interchangeable. So if you can't hit something, you can't touch something, simple as that.

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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 29 2012, 10:59

Not true, because being HIT and being touched (e.g under/partially uder, normal rules) are different things. It says ''hold over an enemy unit...then look through to see how many models bases lie underneath. A unit takes a hit for each model that is fully or partially underneath the template.''Meaning that the marker causes the hit but you ignore it. You are still under the template, so you still spin. We can now go through the check list.

Hold over a unit and check if its base is underneath? check
Cause a hit for everybase underneath. No, flyers carnt be hit.

If you are a vehical i can soin you if you are under the marker.
Are you under the marker? check,
Then you spin, quite simple.

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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 29 2012, 11:25

Where in the main rule book under blasts does it ever mention the word "touched"? You never determine what is "touched", you determine what is "Hit".

So you have two situations either you:

Treat "Hit" and "Touched" to mean the same thing. In this case eldrich storm works against vehicles but doesn't work against flyer.

Or

Treat "Hit" and "Touched" to mean different things. In which case the eldrich storm spin never comes into play.

Like I said in the last post, in this case "touched" is synonymous with "hit".

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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 29 2012, 11:42

Touch is synonymous with being under the marker, like how you would normally determin how many HITS are caused, The hit happens after you place the marker to each model under the marker. Flyers dont get this hit. Buy the flyer is still under the marker.So it still gets spun.

Touch=normal marker rules.
so in a word swap ''any vehical *under/partailly under the marker*......and is spun the direction of a scatter dice.''

* word swapped.

So because the flyers base is under the marker, and since you are vehical, you spin.
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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 29 2012, 13:36

I'm going to weigh in and agree with Mush on this one. This usage of Eldritch Storm is not supported by RAW, nor by RAI. If you choose to use this house rule amongst your own gaming group, then that's your decision, but you will struggle to justify it elsewhere. Razz

As for the Mordric/Stormraven combo, that sounds pretty dubious as well, but I don't know the rules for that so I'm not judging its legality.

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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 29 2012, 20:55

@alexwellace wrote:
Touch is synonymous with being under the marker...

Provide a quote for this.

@bleum937 wrote:
As for the Mordric/Stormraven combo, that sounds pretty dubious as well, but I don't know the rules for that so I'm not judging its legality.

They both don't work by the rules even if you try and force RAW.
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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 30 2012, 04:49

I'm going to take back my earlier comment, I looked back at the FAQ and it doesn't say flyers can't be hit with blast templates, though I swore it did. It actually says they can't be targeted, so provided you target another model you are good.

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PostSubject: Re: Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???   Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 30 2012, 09:05

@Seshiru wrote:
I'm going to take back my earlier comment, I looked back at the FAQ and it doesn't say flyers can't be hit with blast templates, though I swore it did. It actually says they can't be targeted, so provided you target another model you are good.

Your forgetting the part in the rule book where it says blasts and templates can't hit flyers.

Quote :
Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot hit flyers in Zoom mode. - BRB page 81 under Hard to Hit

And from the Eldar FAQ:

Quote :
Q: Does Eldritch Storm need to roll To Hit? (p28)
A: Yes, though as it is a blast weapon, Eldritch Storm will scatter.

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“Even the Black Buzzards thought highly of him, and those maniacs were renowned for hating everyone.” - Tantalus, by Braden Campbell
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Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm??? Empty
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Rule Lawyering: Eldrich Storm???
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