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decado4184
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PostSubject: Need Advice   Need Advice I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 26 2012, 00:44

Hi Everyone, I am looking for some advice as I was just tabled in my first game of 6th edition against my friends Eldar, I would like to pose him more of a challenge in our next game, lists are below:

My List
HQ: Succubus (Venom Blade) - Warlord
HQ: Haemonculus (Venom Blade, Liquifier)
Troop: Wracks (x5, Liquifier)
Dedicated Transport: Raider (Dark Lance)
Troop: Kabalite Warriors (x5, Blaster)
Dedicated Transport: Venom (Splinter Cannon)
Troop: Wyches (x7, Hekatrix, Venom Blade, Haywire Grenades)
Dedicated Transport: Raider (Disintegrator)
Fast Attack: Reavers (x9, Arena Champion, Venom Blade, 3 x Heat Lance)
Heavy Support: Ravager (3 x Dark Lance)
Heavy Support: Ravager (3 x Dark Lance)

His List (From Memory)
HQ:Autarch (Banshee Mask, Chainsword)
Elite: Striking Scorpions x 5
Troop: Jetbikes x 4 (Shuriken Cannon)
Troop: Guardians x 12 (Scatter Laser)
Dedicated Transport: Wave Serpent (Scatter Laser)
Troop: Guardians x 12 & Conceal Warlock (Bright Lance)
Heavy Support: Nightspinner
Heavy Support: Falcon (Scatter Laser)
Heavy Support: War Walker x 2 ( Twin Scatter Lasers)

I deployed everything, he kept his Autarch/Striking Scorpions, Jetbikes and War Walkers in reserve. I had first turn and moved forward firing all anti-tank at his Waveserpent and my Venom at his foot Guardian squad, I killed two Guardians and inflicted only a single hull point on his Waveserpent. His first turn his Nightspinner landed a direct hit on my Reavers killing five including the champion and all the heat lances and downed my Venom, killing one of the Kabalites and earning First Blood. Second turn I bladevaned the foot Guardian squad and fired my Disintegrator at it reducing them to two men who held, again all anti-tank fired at the Waveserpent and once again inflicted only a single hull point of damage. This left my Wyches who had disembarked ready to charge the occupants in a vulnerable position as they would have to face the Guardian squads fire, so I elected to charge the Wave Serpent and finally managed to destroy it in assault. The following turn as expected due to my failure to destroy their transport the Guardians wiped out my Wych squad entirely.

Over the course of the rest of the game I was then systematically shot to pieces and all my combined anti-tank fire managed to down only a single war-walker over the rest of the game.

I understand that I made some tactical errors but I was surprised at how totally ineffective my anti-tank shooting was, eight dark lance shots a turn for as long as each unit lived inflicted a sum total of four hull points damage and failed to outright destroy a single vehicle.

What areas can I improve on and should I be trying to get more anti-tank fire into the list?


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Smurfy
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PostSubject: Re: Need Advice   Need Advice I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 26 2012, 02:22

You overestimated how much Guardians can do with Overwatch, I think, and should have gone to charge them.

Bad luck with the Lance Curse (S8 vs AV 12 is the most annoying fight)

I think you need more threats and you only have 1 combat threat unit, Reavers might but they don't look like they will WANT to get into combat, if you understand what I'm saying.

My 0.02
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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: Need Advice   Need Advice I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 26 2012, 04:25

Eldar vs Dark Eldar is always going to be a blood bath so it's not surprising one of you gets tabled during the game. That's probably what's going to happen to him too if you end up winning.

Anyway, your list looks good enough. I'm not a fan of the wracks and would swap them for another warrior squad with blaster or a small wych squad with haywire grenades but I don't think that's likely a big part of why you lost. Mostly it sounds like a case of bad luck (failing to do damage with your lances and having all your HL shot out of your reaver squad) and maybe a problem with target priority/positioning. Without seeing the board I can only say you want to focus on killing his tanks with most of your units while minimizing the amount of shooting he can send back your way. Guardians/Scorpions can wait till after his tanks (especially the walkers/falcon) are gone (though obviously the venoms can still shoot them each turn if able since the venoms can't help with Anti-Tank anyway).
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Balisong
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PostSubject: Re: Need Advice   Need Advice I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 26 2012, 06:35

Did you have NightShields on your vehicles?

May have helped to keep them alive longer.
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Leobruno
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PostSubject: Re: Need Advice   Need Advice I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 26 2012, 07:38

Bad luck with lances and a lot of points stuck into reavers that got their teeth pulled first turn. Perhaps keep reavers in reserve (as they are your only non-mech unit and therefore the only first turn target for his AI) or perhaps drop that expensive squad to build more redundancy throughout the rest of your list.
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decado4184
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PostSubject: Re: Need Advice   Need Advice I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 26 2012, 11:20

I have a rematch in a few days time and I think I will leave the list unchanged and see if I can play it better, I think my main learning points are:

1) If going first start the Haemonculus with the Reavers to give them FnP, if going second start them in reserve.

2) Ensure that I space the special weapons out better in the Reavers so that a lucky Night-spinner shot will not kill them all.

3) Focus on killing the main threats to my vehicles e.g. Falcon, War Walkers and foot Guardian squad with Bright Lance.

4) Do not disembark my Wych squad to charge unless they are guaranteed a worthwhile charge target (I should not assume that my anti-tank fire will destroy a transport to allow me to charge the occupants).

5) Try and make better use of cover for my vehicles as a 4+ cover save would have helped more than the 5+ jink save (although passing a jink save at some point in the next game would also help).

Does anyone have any other suggestions?
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Need Advice   Need Advice I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 26 2012, 12:53

@Leobruno wrote:
Bad luck with lances and a lot of points stuck into reavers that got their teeth pulled first turn. Perhaps keep reavers in reserve (as they are your only non-mech unit and therefore the only first turn target for his AI) or perhaps drop that expensive squad to build more redundancy throughout the rest of your list.

This is spot on.

Quote :

Going first

The first turn has many advantages when using reavers. Firstly it mitigates their biggest weakness: no jink save until they move. This makes it a lot less risky to start the reavers on the board. The main disadvantage of going first is your opponent gets to see your deployment. This can help him limit first turn bladevane damage.

Going second

Going second is not a bad thing. It gives you a lot of advantages. It will be easier to use your reavers to contest towards the end of the game. More importantly you get to see your opponents deployment. This combined with the 48" movement range of reavers can make it quite easy to deploy your reavers in a safe position out of the range of most of your opponents fire power. Protecting them during their most vulnerable part of the game. Line of sight blocking terrain will make it easier to deploy your reavers aggressively (for a first turn bladevane) whilst still keeping them safe. Ruins can also help by giving reavers a cover save for that first turn. If you feel that your reavers are still too vulnerable after considering these options you can always keep them in reserve.

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Need Advice   Need Advice I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 26 2012, 15:55

This looks like around 1000 points and yet you have a ton of points tied into 2 squads, 249 into the reavers, and assuming you put the succubus + Haemy in with the wych unit makes close to 300 points, roughly half your army and they are not survivable units nor do they dish out much damage. In my opinion, Reavers are a multi-purpose tool; but your army first needs some dedicated AI, and dedicated AT. As an alternative, you could have easy, put down a Voidraven bomber for some AT, that he doesn't have an answer and more splinter spam at the same time by cutting down on your 2 mega units.

As far as wyches go I think they are no longer able to form the core of a dark eldar army. This might just be me, and some one I'm sure can make it work where I cannot. But, they are highly fragile and almost guaranteed to come under fire before getting into combat, where they will at best tarpit something or suicide to take down a tank (as you did) for what they cost I'm finding taking them as anything but an accent flavor to your normal core units to be not worthwhile.

Lastly, the Succubus is awesome for her points but the Archon + Shadowfield or Baron options tend to be much more survivable and dish out equal damage or more.

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Rathstar
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PostSubject: Re: Need Advice   Need Advice I_icon_minitimeWed Jan 02 2013, 12:11

I'd also agree that the reavers are too large for 1000 pts, I'd reduce them to 6. The reavers are not the best in close combat, so I would lose the venom blade and consider dropping the champion upgrade.

I'd also lose the succubus until you play higher points games. When you do play larger games a second HQ will be fine (whether the a cheap succubus, a character slaughtering archon, or the Baron all are great choices).

Making those changes would allow you to increase the size of your army. I would increase the wracks to 10 in a raider (to give you a second assault unit). I would increase the warriors in 10 and change their transport to a raider with splinter wracks. Finally I would add 5 wyches with haywire grenades in a venom. A Quick adding up shows all my additions would put you over 100 points over, so leaving the warriors as a small unit, and reducing the size of the wracks and wyches a bit from maximum size would give you a list of:

Haemonculus (Venom Blade, Liquifier) - 65

Wracks (x8, Acothyst, Liquifierx1) - 100
in Raider (Dark Lance) - 60

Kabalite Warriors (x5, Blaster) - 60
in Venom (2nd Cannon) - 65

Wyches (x7, Hekatrix, Venom Blade, Haywire Grenades) - 99
in Raider (Dark Lance) - 60

Wyches (x5, Haywire Grenades) - 60
in Venom (2nd Cannon) - 65

Reavers (x6, 2 x Heat Lance) - 156

Ravager (3 x Dark Lance) - 105

Ravager (3 x Dark Lance) - 105

Total: 1000 pts

By now you've already had your rematch, so let us know how it went, and hopefully you can take something from the list I've suggested for your next game.

Rathstar

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decado4184
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PostSubject: Re: Need Advice   Need Advice I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 03 2013, 00:01

Thank you for all the feedback, I will certainly consider playing around with my list with some of the changes you suggest.

That being said I played the rematch today and the tables were turned as I won the game 8VP to 1VP.

Deployment:

My friend kept his War Walkers and Jetbikes in Reserve, Scorpions and Autarch were in the Falcon this game, and deployed his forces as far back as possible. I deployed everything, putting the Reavers at the back more than 48" from the Nightspinner with the Haemonculus to give them FnP and the Wrack/Succubus raider alongside ready for him to embark and join them. My other vehicles started further forward behind cover where possible.

Turn 1:

My friend had first turn but Night Fight was in effect (forgot to use this rule in our first game) and this limited his shooting, his Nightspinner hit my Venom and a Ravager, inflicting a hull point on both and stunning the Ravager, he then inflicted a further hull point on the Ravager with his Falcon.

In return I moved forward with the Venom and fired at his Bright Lance Guardian squad killing two, both Ravagers (one firing snap shots) and the Dark Lance Raider fired at his Falcon inflicting two hull points. The Reavers and Wracks Raider both turbo-boosted forward.

Turn 2:

My friend got both of his reserves, his War Walkers came on behind my army and wrecked the Wracks Raider forcing an emergency disembarkation into a crater and a pinning check which they failed. His scatter laser Waveserpent fired at my undamaged Ravager and destroyed it outright. His Bright Lance guardian squad fired at the other Ravager (with one hull point remaining) but missed. The Nightspinner and Jetbikes fired at my Reavers but with a 3+ jink save and 5+ FnP none died.

My remaining Ravager moved back towards my board edge to engage the War Walkers and killed one, my Venom targeted the Jetbikes (Guardians were obscured by my Reavers) and killed none, the Kabalites fired their Blaster at the Falcon (one hull point remaining) but failed to hit. My Reavers bladevaned his Bright Lance Guardian Squad and killed them all and my Wyches disembarked from their Raider and charged the Nightspinner wrecking it with Haywire grenades.

Turn 3:

His scatter laser Waveserpent wrecked my Venom and the Kabalites disembarked into an adjacent crater and passed their pinning check. His jetbikes moved up and fired at my Wyches killing two (they passed break test). His Falcon moved up and shot at my nearby Kabalite squad killing only one (they passed break test) and his Autarch and Striking Scorpions disembarked and threw a Haywire Grenade at the nearby Ravager (one hull point remaining) and failed to wreck it, before his remaining War Walker fired at it and destroyed it.

My Kabalite squad fired at his Falcon (one hull point remaining) and wrecked it, my Wych Raider fired at his remaining War Walker and destroyed it. My Wrack squad moved forward and fired both their Liquifiers at the Striking Scorpions and killed three, before the Reavers bladevaned the squad killing them all including his Autarch. My Wyches moved forward and fired their pistols and a plasma grenade at the Jetbikes killing two and then attempted to charge them but failed even though they required only 4", rolled 3" twice.

Turn 4:

My friend only had his scatter laser Waveserpent, the Guardian squad it contained and two Jetbikes left at this point and I had both objectives (Wracks on one, Wyches on the other). He disembarked the Guardian squad and fired its scatter laser and the Waveserpent scatter laser at the nearby Kabalites, I went to ground for a 3+ save and only lost a single Kabalite (they passed their break test). The Jetbikes moved back slightly to 12" from my Wyches and fired at them killing one.

Before I could take my turn, with his Jetbikes in range of a charge from my Wyches and the Reavers able to bladestorm his Guardians and both objectives in my control he conceeded.

Final Count:
Dark Eldar 8VP (2 X Objective, Linebreaker, Slay the Warlord)
Eldar 1VP (First Blood)

The Reavers were the stars of the game, destroying both the Guardian squad and the Striking Scorpions/Autarch and caused him to keep his second Guardian squad inside their transport for most of the game. Ironically given the small squad sizes I had all my infantry squads still in play but only a single Raider survived.

Two questions that came up in the game were:

1) Can units that do not require line of sight (e.g. Nightspinner) shoot further than 36" in Night Fight, we played it as no as the rule states "The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away."?

2) Do skimmers get a jink save against close combat attacks, we played it as no as it is a cover save and you do not get cover saves in close combat?

Were our interpretations correct?

Also on a more important note does anyone have any advice for keeping Reavers on the flying stands, the ball and socket is not very secure and mine kept falling off and several broke during the course of the game?

Do people simply glue them to the stands?
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psycheer
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PostSubject: Re: Need Advice   Need Advice I_icon_minitimeThu Jan 03 2013, 16:25

sounds like everything worked out for ya!

1. Anything that is targeted that is further than the max range of a gun automatically misses (yay premeasuring!). If you target something that is exactly the max range away and then scatters further, apply dmg as normal.

2. No, it is a cover save. Though you do get to jink through overwatch!

as far as the stands, i've seen a few people magnetize them to their stands (custom stands) or just glue them. Even saw one guy put a small screw in the socket and magnetized the base.

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