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shadowseercB
Wych
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PostSubject: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 20 2012, 08:40

I have used the webway today. Me and my opponents were not sure how to use it.

I was under the impression that in turn one I would run across the board in a venom flat-out. In turn 2 move six, drop my webway then charge or just get out then drop the webway. Then we talked about it and we werent sure if I have to wait till turn 3 to receive the people from reserves or not.

I was initially under the impression that I could in turn 2 get out of the venom drop the portal then receive the occupants in the same turn (turn 2).

My question is, how am I supposed to use this thing?

And if anyone has strategies that would be great too.

Thanks.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 20 2012, 09:01

Reserves are rolled for at the start of the turn, ie before the WWP is placed. You need to get the WWP in place in Turn 1 realistically in order to get the most out of it. Best bet is to deploy your WWP carrier as far forward as possible in a venom or raider. Turn 1 move 6", disembark another 6" into cover and place the WWP. Then on Turn 2 you can roll for reserves and they will be able to come out of the WWP if you wish. Note however that you cannot now assault on the turn you arrive from reserves so the WWP has lost some of its usefulness.

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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 20 2012, 10:28

Damn,

How would I go about putting units in ongoing reserves? I have read all over the place and in the book the only example it says is for flyer's leaving the table and going in "ongoing reserves".

I was thinking that maybe it would be cool if a webway portal could be droped by an Archon like in Adhemar's example. I have scourges come out and shoot something up, then go back into reserves somehow, then pop out of another webway dropped by a haemonculi on the other side of the board then they shoot up the next target on the next turn.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 20 2012, 10:31

AFAIK flyers leaving the board are basically the only example of a unit on the table going back into reserve other than maybe some reserve shenanigans at deployment with Malys.

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 20 2012, 12:38

The best way I have found to use a web way portal this edition is to fill the hollow sphere with plaster or concrete, and use it as a paperweight.
Very Happy

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 20 2012, 15:46

Webway portals work well with Mandrakes and Scourges, together they form the crappiest dark eldar army money can buy.

But your models will look damn cool.....

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pantofful
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 20 2012, 16:19

I have had some limited (mainly because I've just started) running a WWP occaisionally. To me the key is not to use assault troops, but shooting troops. last time 2 taloi, 6 reavers, and 8 trueborn with carbines/splinter cannons took out a tank and quite a bit of infantry right out of the gate, and the Taloi created a great distraction to protect the reavers and trueborn as they were in assualt range for turn 3.
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 20 2012, 17:19

I purchased a defense line to improve my reserve results to be used with the webway Sad

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Plastikente
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 20 2012, 17:48

Webway Portals are far from useless, but they are quite tricky to use well now that you can't charge out of them. It's certainly easier to run a Venom/Raider spam list. But if you want easy, why don't you just play SMurfs?

I'm with pantofful in saying the easiest thing to do is bring shooty units on through the webway, because then you don't waste a turn. You could bring an assault unit on, but you must make sure there is some nearby cover to hide in for a turn. Harlequins can actually work well in this role (if fielded with Shadowseer) because they have an immense cover save and don't get slowed by the terrain at all.

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 20 2012, 17:50

I really do believe Scourges are the best unit for a WWP

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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 20 2012, 18:02

@Plastikente wrote:
It's certainly easier to run a Venom/Raider spam list. But if you want easy, why don't you just play SMurfs?

That's not mildly insulting/elites or anything. Rolling Eyes

@Plastikente wrote:
I'm with pantofful in saying the easiest thing to do is bring shooty units on through the webway, because then you don't waste a turn.

Except you are wasting a turn, the first turn while your guys sit in reserves. And maybe more turns if they fail to show up. Not to mention dictating what your webway portal dude is doing his first turn (and forcing his equipment/unit design around placing it). Assault just wastes another turn over ranged units out of a web portal.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 20 2012, 18:33

When some one wants to play on planet bowling ball and spam cheap tanks (looking at you IG players...) then the Webway can provide a cheap way to get units across the board.

Or when you play against a grey knight player, whom you tabled over and over again because they don't understand grey knights don't have any tactical options, and you want to give them something they might actually be able to keep their dignity against throwing down a WWP isn't a bad idea. A small hint of kindness in an Archon's black heart, which would be followed up by regret, which would be followed up by doing everything you can to table them any way Smile

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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 20 2012, 18:59

I just thought of a useful situation for them, lets say I miss my reserve in turn 2 but my HQ is on the other side of the board by the end of turn 2. I would be able to drop it there and have my guys come out without worrying about scatter. That is pretty cool. Lame that it is 35 points.

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Scorpion
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 20 2012, 19:43

With a comms relay ón your ADL you could even re-Roll your succesful reserve Rolls and increase your chance of not having your reserves enter the game before turn 3.
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pantofful
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 20 2012, 20:01

Quote :
Except you are wasting a turn, the first turn while your guys sit in reserves. And maybe more turns if they fail to show up. Not to mention dictating what your webway portal dude is doing his first turn (and forcing his equipment/unit design around placing it). Assault just wastes another turn over ranged units out of a web portal.

Agreed, you are losing out on firepower for a few turns, but when I use the WWPs (which I don't in my base army, but like to mix it up), I find what I give up in early firepower is balanced by creating more late-game survivability for denial/scoring units I bring through...
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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 20 2012, 20:22

@Scorpion wrote:
With a comms relay ón your ADL you could even re-Roll your succesful reserve Rolls and increase your chance of not having your reserves enter the game before turn 3.

Im not following, can you please explain/example?
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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 20 2012, 21:02

@shadowseercB wrote:
Im not following, can you please explain/example?
Com relays let you reroll reserve rolls. He's saying to reroll any you succeed on before you get your Webway down (since otherwise they would be forced to come in from the board edge, wasting the entire point of the webway to begin with, though even with the reroll you can't be sure they won't come on anyway). Of course now you're spending even more points that aren't directly helping you win to keep parts of your army you did spend points on off the board and letting your enemy kill it a bit at a time. It just seems like a waste when you could just start shooting from turn 1.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 21 2012, 07:46

The webway portal still has it's uses. I think the biggest misunderstanding of it comes from thinking that it's used to get units without transports further up field, this is wrong.

If you consider the safest way to deploy a webway portal: a big units of grotesques or harlequins deployed centrally on the board 12" in, then you get 12"+6"+3"+6" = 27" into the board now if you come in on turn 2 that put's you 3" further in than if you just deployed 12" in and moved 6" for two turns, and you can't charge. So the movement advantage is not the main reason for using the webway portal as it is unreliable at best.

What the webway portal does do, is protect units for 1-2 turns and removes the disadvantage of going second, as units coming out of the portal always get their shots in first. In fact going second is how the portal should be played as that way your units can avoid more of his shooting as even if you come in on turn 2 your opponent will miss two turns of shooting!

Uses:

1. Keeping small scoring units safe. Why spend points on larger units of troops when you can use smaller ones that will be just as effective as they will be immune to shooting for the first 1-2 turns.
2. Preventing fragile units from giving up first blood.
3. Increasing the threat range of blaster units coming in from reserve. Your opponent will think twice if anything within 30" of the portal could potentially be threatened by blasters mounted on reavers/scourges.
4. Delay anti infantry units until they are needed. Against a mechanised opponent they might not have anything to shoot at on the first turn, however by the time they come in from the portal a portion of the opponents armies will be demechanised.
5. Board control, the webway portal creates a bubble of potential threats around the centre of the board that will make your opponent think twice before commiting his forces, this is a fantastic edge in an objective based game.
6. Reducing the number of turns your opponent has to take out a threat. Three Talos marching across the board is intimidating. Three talos that may or may not appear in the centre of the board create a massive fear factor due to their liquifiers and splinter cannons. What's worse is they will be coming on at full wounds and potentially snap up a few pain tokens with their splinter/liquifier shooting when they come in (getting FNP). What makes this so much worse is rather than having 6 turns to deal with three talos your opponent now has 3-4 turns (if you are going second even if you come in on turn 2 your opponent will miss two turns of shooting!).

It's these strengths that make the Webway Portal a cheap investment all things considered, it guarantees that units coming on form reserve will be at full strength and appear in a central position on the board, it denies at least two turns of your enemies shooting against the units in reserve (As you want to go second with a WWP army). Finally it guarantees that the units in reserve get their "Alpha Strike".

If you want to play a Dark Eldar army that doesn't depend on going first then the webway portal is a solid option. Just don't do anything fancy and use a solid foot unit to deploy it.

Here's a battle report that demonstrates some of the above (with pictures):

BR16: The Black Buzzards VS SoB Mech - 1500pts

Hope that helps. Very Happy

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Plastikente
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 21 2012, 12:46

Mush, that is a great breakdown of reasons to use a Webway Portal. Do you mind if I link it in my Tactica article?

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 21 2012, 15:05

@Plastikente wrote:
Mush, that is a great breakdown of reasons to use a Webway Portal. Do you mind if I link it in my Tactica article?
Paraphrase/use away. Smile

Just to add a bit more reasoning behind my previous post.

I don't think this version of the webway portal was ever meant to be used to "rush" your opponent, that's what raiders/venoms are for. In my opinion it's about protecting a bunch of units whilst creating board control and guaranteeing they will get their shots in first.

I think people got trapped trying to use the portal the way it was used in the old codex, basically a portal bomb that you charge into your opponents line and beat face out of. Now that's you can't prevent the units from coming in from reserve that tactic isn't reliable.

As for why I'm not a fan of mechanised portal delivery units:

1. You need first turn.
2. You need a fast fragile portal delivery unit, or two (large investment of points).
3. If you go second those delivery units will probably be out of position (as they are fragile and need to be hidden), so their bonus movement is often wasted.
4. It tends to be a lot of points to invest in a fragile unit who's only purpose is to deliver the portal (an then get shot off the board).

A foot units is survivable, won't give up first blood and can almost always be deployed centrally. And lets you plan to go second as you know they can shrug off a lot of fire power. They also tend to double up as a beat face assault unit (grotesques or harlequins) and would have been on foot anyway, so the cost of using the portal is 35pts. Not 170pts for a naked haemi and three wracks mounted in a venom who's only purpose is to set up a portal. Also with central deployment you only need one portal.

Grotesques are ideal being T5 and having FNP, deployed centrally in the open or preferably in some area terrain and they will do a good job (watch out for manticores). Or Harlequins with an archon in cover with veil of tears. Both are fantastic counter assault units that can withstand a lot of shooting.

As for not being able to assault out of portals, it hasn't really changed anything.You can't use wyches out of a portal that's about all it's changed and it's not like your opponent kindly waited around the portal to get assaulted by wyches anyway. Reavers can blade vane or shoot, warriors/scourges want to be shooting and wracks are going to be coming on to score. As for talos who in their right mind would have got within 12" of a webway portal that had a talos in it last edition? No one. Taking liquifiers on the talos carries on that tradition, because no sane general would risk leaving his infantry anywhere within 12-14" near of a potential liquifier alpha strike. The only difference is that your opponent might be willing to risk his transports and tanks nearer the portal as the talos can't rip them up on the turn it comes in (but god help you if that talos is still standing next turn). Again having blasters coming out of the portal should dissuade this, if that transport goes the contents will be asking to be tear-drop liquified. You need a mixture of threats coming out the portal to get the most out of it.

The WWP is similar to proper Talos use in this respect, it's about projecting "fear" and using that "fear" to deny part of the board to your opponent. What if his blaster born come out and take out my land raider, what if his talos rolls a 3 on his liquifiers and take out half my assault marines, etc. If your opponent comes near a portal he has to be aware you are playing on home ground and you will get the jump on anything that enters portal territory.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 21 2012, 15:15

Worth noting that fortifications can be deployed anywhere in your own table half. It can be slightly risky if you don't get first turn but you could choose to place an ADL or Bastion near the centre line and put your WWP carriers in cover or possibly even out of LOS behind it. On your first turn you move up and place the portal in ready made cover ready for your reserves to arrive.

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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 21 2012, 18:20

Thank you guys, but now a question comes back to mind after reading this and the battle report. Were you able to activate the portal in first turn and have guys come out of the WWP to fire? I thought reserves can only come out in turn 2.

It looks like Mush came out in turn 1 and fired in his battle report.

Please use the Edit button in future, thanks. Smile - Mush
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 21 2012, 19:49

@shadowseercB wrote:
It looks like Mush came out in turn 1 and fired in his battle report.

The talos started on the board that game. All the wracks and one squad of reavers used the portal.

You can decide what comes out of the portal before the game starts, and in that particular game I was experimenting with keeping my troops in reserve (to prevent them from giving up first blood), and as I had a lot of them, so I needed the Talos on the board to meet the 50% rule for reserves.

Hope that clears it up. Very Happy

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 22 2012, 15:10

@Mushkilla wrote:
You can decide what comes out of the portal before the game starts

no, you decide what units are in reserves, and then any non-tank unit in reserve may choose to move through the portal. There is a difference there Wink

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Help me use a webway portal   Help me use a webway portal I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 22 2012, 15:30

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
@Mushkilla wrote:
You can decide what comes out of the portal before the game starts

no, you decide what units are in reserves, and then any non-tank unit in reserve may choose to move through the portal. There is a difference there Wink

For all intents an purposes I was trying to say that the portal is flexible and you can change your battle plan accordingly, depending on what army you are facing. <-- should have just said this Very Happy

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