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 Trueborn+Venom super AI squad

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wittykid
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PostSubject: Trueborn+Venom super AI squad   Trueborn+Venom super AI squad I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 13 2012, 21:44

So what do you guys of a squad of 5 trueborn in a venom with the double splinter cannon obviously on the venom, then 2 splinter cannons for the trueborn and 3 blasters for the others. Albeit expensive, this unit has a good number of poison shots and some high str ap 2 to definitely put a dent in anything that has a good enough armour save to counteract the splinter weaponry. Also in a pinch it could take out tanks. Does anyone have experience with a build like this? Any ideas on how it might play in a game? Just looking for feedback
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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn+Venom super AI squad   Trueborn+Venom super AI squad I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 13 2012, 21:57

The general issue is really the standard one with trueborn: It's expensive. The other issue is that Blasters and Splinter Cannons don't work the same so either way you're kinda wasting one or the other's potential.

Splinter Cannons are long range which is one of the best things about Splinterborn. You can hang back at 36" and shred things. Add Blasters and suddenly that's a huge waste. Likewise Blasters are nice Anti-tank but Splinter Cannopns will do nothing which is a waste. At least the venom can split its target from the squad so they can work together (or at least not waste each other's time). That's not the case when both weapons are mashed in one squad. Sure they can both kill infantry together but it's not exactly an efficient method.

All that said, it really brings up the question of why you don't split the SC and Blasters into two different squads, letting you use both to their full potential, and get an extra venom out of the deal? And the excuse that that would take two elite slots to the other option's one doesn't fly with me in this case. 3 Blaster 2 SC Trueborn squads are too expensive for anything below 2000 points anyway so you should have plenty of slots.
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baster
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn+Venom super AI squad   Trueborn+Venom super AI squad I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 13 2012, 22:13

it mixes AT and AI, i found you had to make a choice between targeting a vehicle or troops! so now i keep em separate, that way you get 2 venoms.

normally run 2 squads of lance born in venoms with the extra SC and nightshields, expensive but the range on SC and Lances combined with nightshields makes em very killy and very survivable
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Fraust
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn+Venom super AI squad   Trueborn+Venom super AI squad I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 14 2012, 04:52

The unit you're talking about is actually how I used to run my trueborn. Lately I've dropped one blaster (and model) so it's two and two. The points brought up by the other posters are perfectly valid in my opinion, but I still like the unit. For one, I play in larger games than what is apparently normal. I play at least two of these units every time I run DE, and normally three...so there's no option of making them two different squads. Also, I regularly spend the first half of the game dancing around the edges of max range on the splinter cannons taking out infantry before moving in and going after things with the blasters. If it wasn't for the occassional time when I need all the anti tank I can get I would outright drop the blasters honestly, but they've saved my army enough times in the past that I keep them in. Is it the most efficient way to run the unit? Eh, probably not, but I think what it lacks in efficiency it makes up for in swissarmyness, which works for me.
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wittykid
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn+Venom super AI squad   Trueborn+Venom super AI squad I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 14 2012, 05:03

Okay thanks Fraust your post was kind of something I was looking for because I had already heard most of the above arguments against it, I just wanted to know if anyone has had any experience in the "swissamryness" or utility of the unit where it proved to be useful. Sorry I probably should have said something about the arguments above in the original post since I was looking for something else which was a more positive experience or some little known reason in why it ends up a bad combo. You mind if I put that in my signature by the way "I think what it lacks in efficiency it makes up for in swissarmyness"

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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn+Venom super AI squad   Trueborn+Venom super AI squad I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 14 2012, 05:55

@Fraust wrote:
For one, I play in larger games than what is apparently normal.

Yeah, my advice mostly applies to around the 2000 point mark or less. If you're talking 3500+ point games then you've got points to burn so you might as well pack in every special weapon you can. I just don't see alot of games at that point value (at least not 1v1) so I don't give advice for those types of games unless they specify that's what they're doing.

@Edit: Thinking more on it I take back what I said above. Given the allies and double force organization chart rules even at 3500 points you're still going to have plenty of options and places to spend those points so you're probably never going to have so many you can just blow them on whatever. There is something to be said for flexibility on a unit per unit basis but at the same time efficiency can lead to flexibility too. Save points in one area spend them on more troops for flexibility in another.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn+Venom super AI squad   Trueborn+Venom super AI squad I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 14 2012, 14:45

@wittykid wrote:
Okay thanks Fraust your post was kind of something I was looking for because I had already heard most of the above arguments against it, I just wanted to know if anyone has had any experience in the "swissamryness" or utility of the unit where it proved to be useful.

The problem is this "swissarmyness" you guys want, isnt optimal. Your wasting blaster shots when getting the most out of the splinter cannons, and wasting splinter shots when trying to aim at tanks. Things that are "swissarmyness" means wasted points, and wasted points= inefficiency. Its the same reason you dont buy a sybarite and give him an agoniser, he should never use it, and if he does, he will most likely be dead anyway. "Swissarmyness" Is a waste of points, no matter what point value. You can always drop useless upgrades and get another squad out of it, and that extra squad may be the difference from winning and losing.

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Fraust
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn+Venom super AI squad   Trueborn+Venom super AI squad I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 15 2012, 00:52

Sure, quote away!

I play at 2k+, and that's what I'm thinking of. 2k, 2.5k. Though yeah, I am thinking single force organization chart. I always remember you can do that when I'm away from my group and just thinking up army ideas, but forget about it when I'm there and ready to play...

Shadowsrevenge. That's a very good point, and my only real answer is I do well against the people I play against, least most of the time and when that's not the case I generally see it as a mistake I made during the game rather than a weakness in my army list. One half baked answer is I'm coming from a list design perspective where I could be fighting all infantry orcs or paladin heavy grey knights, so I like having units that can play multipe roles. On the other hand, I don't run blasters in my warriors because I don't think the single shot is worth the price...so I do have some specialization. When I get back whith my group I'm going to try out 4 blaster truborn, and who knows, maybe I'll love them. Biggest reason I haven't yet is I feel like I'm either rushing up to get in range with the blasters, and wasting the venom shots or hanging back and wasting the blasters. At least with my unit I'm only wasting two blasters per unit when I hang back.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn+Venom super AI squad   Trueborn+Venom super AI squad I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 17 2012, 16:06

@Fraust wrote:
One half baked answer is I'm coming from a list design perspective where I could be fighting all infantry orcs or paladin heavy grey knights, so I like having units that can play multipe roles. On the other hand, I don't run blasters in my warriors because I don't think the single shot is worth the price...so I do have some specialization.

Thats weird... you codone the use of mixed blasters and splinter cannons on your trueborn, but dont pay the 15 points for the blaster in your warrior squad? May I ask the reason??? That 15 points goes along way. The blaster is better statistically than even the 2 shot the rifle would get you, and it gives you the option to tank hunt (true, one shot isnt much, but its not like 5 rifles is statistically going to do much damage either). That isnt even going into the wound allocation shennanigans you can do with having a different weapon profile wound in the wound pool. Its just weird to me that you want that duality with the trueborn, and are willing to pay a premium for it, but wont do it for your basic troop option (not to mention its almost DE 101 with warriors)

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Fraust
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PostSubject: Re: Trueborn+Venom super AI squad   Trueborn+Venom super AI squad I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 17 2012, 20:08

Part of it was very rarely ever using the blasters in the warrior squad (what I used were ten man warriors with blaster and cannon in raider...didn't have enough venoms to share...still don't actually), and when I did them suffering from the one shot curse. Another part, and if I'm being completely honest it's a larger part, is model availability. The initial decission ended up being to take the blasters out of the warrior squads so I didn't have to proxy so many blasters in my truborn squads, and to try out having the warrior squads specialize in anti infantry. After doing that I started winning more games. As money comes in I'm slowly picking up more venoms and blasters and trying out more "traditional" DE lists, but even beside the money issue is the lack of game opportunities...so a lot of the time it comes down to, try something new, or play with the same/similar units to what I've won with before.

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