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 Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks

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Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 06 2012, 11:35

Got a game coming up in a couple of days time against a Horde Ork list w/ 2 BattleWagons.

Haven't played Orks at 2000pt level, I know pretty much what his list is like:

140 Boyz, 3x3 MANZ, 2 BW's, 3 Trukks and some Skorchas.

What are some of their tricks I need to counter against when building my list. I know they have crap Ld but the Boyz are Fearless when more than 10. Would shooting/bladevaning a unit down to say 9, then hitting them with pinning weapons be a good strategy to try?

I'm thinking of running a Talos w/ TL Liq and Stinger Pods - throw down some templates then tie up a unit....

I'm also thinking of Liquifier shenanigans in taking 2x Haemie, 2 Liq with 8 Wracks, Liq in Raider. Fly up and flame, then when they charge me can overwatch the Liquifier's from inside the Raider. As the unit is Fearless (and providing I haven't been completely surrounded) in my next shooting phase I can Flame them some more. Also thinking about taking Envenomed Blades for the lolz....

Also going with Venoms, Trueborn, Reavers and Ravagers to fill in the rest. Any further advice would be great!

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 06 2012, 11:43

Well I dont tailor list myself, but my usual skimmer spam does the trick. Either it be Raiders or Venoms.
The only thing I have found tricky playing orks so far is the bomber, but this is because I dont have any flyers in my lists.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 06 2012, 11:57

Lots of darklight weaponry to take out the vehicles and force them to footslog. Then Vevoms to make them wish they'd never been born! Keep the Venoms at long range and they should be able to destroy large units fairly quickly by focusing everything on one unit until it's dead then moving on to the next.

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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 06 2012, 14:44

Large numbers of units demand large numbers of shots. What gives out the most shots? Venoms!

As for the ideas you brought up:
1) I don't think trying to work against orc leadership is worth the effort. If you get them down to 9 or less they are already almost dead, trying to pin them seems like wasted effort.
2) A Talos can work, and its Twin-Linked Liquifier will be nice. It also brings another splinter cannon to the part so bonus there.
3) I'm not a fan of that Haemoculus + Wracks build. Seems like it'll just get killed on the charge, yeah you'll be doing 3d3 auto-hits but that's not really that many vs orcs and you'll only be wounding on a 4+. Why get that close when you can have Warriors with Splinter Rifles gunning them down on a 4+ from range?
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baster
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 06 2012, 15:27

i agree with murkglow, keep them at range and pin cushion them to death. their toughness counts for nothing against poison and if your close enough to use the flame template your way too close. pop the battlewagons early pick em off with SC and warrior gun boats. i dont think you need to "tailor" a list just bring the regulars they will do the business
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Druchii
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 06 2012, 17:15

I got nothing further to add than what have been said above.
I just want point out some thoughts that a Ork playing buddy of mine said after his first game against my Dark Eldar army.
The same moment that the Ork player starts to foot slog his boys across the board you got him right where you want him. If the boys isn't insanely packed up in rank or file you'll be able to kill enough of those boys to hamper his movement towards you. With the 6th edition wound rules you can with easy cut away 3-4 inches from his front row. Let's say you kill enough boys to force him to remove all boys 3" from the front. Even after his 6" move in his movement phase he has only won 3" overall. Rinse and repeat. Then throw in the night shield on your skimmers and you're all set=)


I would say that if you want to tailor your list against orks splinter cannon true borns in venoms, kabalite warriors in raiders and razorwings with shatter field missiles is right down your lane. You might want to try out the dissie ravager to counter his MAZ. Archon and Incubus MIGHT do the trick but it's quite many eggs in one basket if you ask me.
If you are running with allies you could always use some Eldar to add some scatter laser love to aim towards those trukks. Scatter Vypers are great trukk hunters but a squad of scatter walkers can never do you wrong =)

Be advised though; a tailored list is never ever a good idea. In tournaments and such you'll need a TAC-list, in a friendly game with your mates it should never be so important to win that you are ready to destroy the whole game session for your buddy, and in so even yours =)
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 06 2012, 18:31

and don't let them get the charge well not so much in 6ed but still
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Bugs_N_Orks
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 06 2012, 23:53

Talos can be quite mean against orks with their base S3. At 2000 Points I don't think reavers are a good choice, Bladevaning will do an average of 1 wound per bike (before saves) but there's likely to be so many bodies on the table that something will be able to charge them right after that.

Also remember to focus fire whenever you can to make every shot count.

Oh and please don't ever take envenomded blades...ever....
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 07 2012, 05:04

hehehehehhe
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 07 2012, 07:02

OK, so Liquifier squad w/ Envenomed Blades no good.

Load up on Poison, use Focus Fire where possible, stay at range.

Thanks for the replies, keep them coming. Game is on Sunday (AEST)

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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 07 2012, 17:15

All good advice, fighting on your terms is always what we strive for. Where does he load his troopers? If its MANZ in trukks, 2 BW full of 20 shoota boyz each and the rest on foot, you definitely are in for it. Strand him and make him walk is my best advice.

In theory the Talos @ T7 is awesome, and with fearless the boyz cannot withdraw ( but the Nob w/powerklaw in there can hurt you, and ignores your armour save), but will it do more than a stock razorwing? I tend to think not, and heres why.

At best ( I know, this wont happen, but bear with me), the talos getting 6 attacks per round, hitting and wounding with each attack would take 4 rounds to force a leadership save on one footslogging squad of 30. (fearless over 11+ boyz, need to kill 19 to make them test) . From a RJF you get 4-5 inch templates and 6 Str5 ap2 shots. You could go for 2 more lances if you prefer, but 2 ravagers should be able to take down the battlewagons/trukks coupled with your raider lances. Giving The RJF the same best case scenario, 2-5inch templates hit say 6 models each, then the 6 dissie shots hit same, and in one round you've done 18 wounds; same as Talos best case of 3 rounds. Not only can you do it again the next turn, but another unit can shoot the RJF's target and force a leadership test.

Granted the Talos can be a bullet magnet, and a durable one at that, but if your goal is to stay out of range the Talos plays against that. WIth the Splinter Cannon upgrade on the RJF; you get one heck of a super mobile horde thinning weapon. The SC is optional, but it does give you more damage potential after your missiles are gone.
Woebetide your talos ( or transports) if he takes lootas, they can shoot alot of S7 shots at 48" if his dice get hot!

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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 07 2012, 17:55

Why would melee be the Talos's "best case scenario"? I think Twin-Linked Liquifiers + Splinter Cannon will do far more damage then anything it could do in melee and is every bit comparable to a jetfighter, especially when you consider the fighter's limitations. Meanwhile the Talos can sit in cover on an objective while the fighter is getting snap shotted at by lootas (Orks are hurt the least of any army by having to Snap Shot).
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 07 2012, 22:38

Agree with most of the above. Do not use liquifiers against orks. The last place you want to be is up close with that amount of boyz.

With that amount of Boyz you need volume of fire. MSU venoms is the way to go to bring them down. Before that you need to take down the transports so everything is footslogging towards you, I'd take 3 x 3DL ravagers with N/s to help with this. I'd probably also use sniperborn to assist here.

So 3 venoms with sniperborn, 6 venoms with cheap troops (5 warriors) 3 Ravagers, a token HQ and whatever else you can fit in that provides ranged weapons, scourges with haywires perhaps.

In summary, keep your distance and shoot. Prioritise transports first to prevent them reaching you more quickly. Oh and shoot some more.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 07 2012, 23:26

voidraven with 4 shatter field missile is the was to go
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 08 2012, 05:34

As others have said sit back, de mech, poison. DE love to play against this army! Just to be different i would take some wracks with liquifiers.

@kenny3760 wrote:
My tournament list is designed to bring as much raw killing power as I can muster in a TAC list. Combining elements of AI and AT in both assault and ballistic platforms with the aim of having multiple options is the way to achieve this.

Agree 100% Kenny.

I don't tailor but i don't mind if my opponents do. I have experience against the ork list your describing. My all comers 2k list includes.

Heamy - Liquifier, venom b.
2x5 Wracks - Liquifier, 1 in raider with Heamy, 1 in raider or venom

They are a great cheap expendable option to have in my tool box. Defensively they can counter allmost any infantry unit that somehow manages to special deploy or move close enough to be a threat and mess with my target priorities. 3 liquifiers and the charge usually puts a large hole in the new threat and my long range AI is not wasted on them. Offensively they can burn units in cover and off obj late geme.

They also have an area denial effect. After wiping units of 8 grey hiunters with a WG arriving by pod just with liquifiers more than once, my opponents are alot less likely to drop pod or DS a unit of MEQ or even TEQ within 18" of these skimmers. This makes them higher on my opponents TP list which is just fine with me!
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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 08 2012, 19:43

@Murkglow wrote:
Why would melee be the Talos's "best case scenario"? I think Twin-Linked Liquifiers + Splinter Cannon will do far more damage then anything it could do in melee and is every bit comparable to a jetfighter, especially when you consider the fighter's limitations. Meanwhile the Talos can sit in cover on an objective while the fighter is getting snap shotted at by lootas (Orks are hurt the least of any army by having to Snap Shot).

Only a best case as the talos is doing what its meant too; beat face in cc. Twin link liquifiers are just a wound re-roll, not two shots, so they are great but not the greatest clear out weapon ever just awful close! You will maybe get one or two shots with the liquifier before the horde is on you, and 6 cannon shots with reroll at BS3 is about 4-5 hits per turn, meaning 2-3 wounds at most.

Sitting a talos in cover and shooting 6 cannon shots at a wall of 140 approaching orks doesnt make sense to me, and plays against our outranging the greenskins strategy. The Talos can still be hurt by Orky shooting, granted it saves better, but if you are worried about shooting give a razorwing night shields, then shoota boyz can be as close as 12 1/2 inches away and not even be able to shoot at it. (except maybe a big shoota or two) If the goal is to make him shoot at the Talos instead of skimmers it might work, but as soon as your opponent realizes the Talos cant really hurt back at 8-36" away hes liable to ignore it until it breaks cover and gets close. Stinger Pods on a Talos are more effective vs hordes than the splinter cannon.

Lootas have become an even more dangerous unit for orks to use, and I would be surprised if @ 2000 points there werent some in there. Especially lootas in a looted wagon, mobile, hard to shift, and capable of laying out a potentially gross amount of dice rolls. However a squad of 10 firing max 30 shots will snapshot on average 5 hits, the Ork boss knowing this will probably prioritise based on that. As a counter, Lootas can only be taken in squads up to 15; and have the same problem as regular Orks-Low LD in groups under 10 and no real armour.

Liquifiers arent bad as a defensive measure, a haemy in a kabalite gunboat isnt a bad additional deterrent to a charge, but as an offensive weapon I think it would expose the unit carrying it to to much of a potential counter.....unless of course you want them to attack that unit as part of a grander design....... Besides, orks are more likely to be trying to get in your face not cowering in cover.

Shatterfield missiles are a waste of points imo as the standard monoscythe is pretty awesome. The shatterfield reroll is nice, but most Ork boyz have armour of 6+, and monoscythes are AP5. You already wound on a 2+ and ignore armour; if you hit 6 on average you will wound 5 and kill almost that many outright.

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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 08 2012, 21:21

Melee is what a talos was meant to do? Since when? Anyway, I wasn't saying Talos was amazing or that you should run them, I was simply saying the Talos is easily comparable to the Jetfighter in terms of damage done. Frankly I wouldn't use either of them vs a Green Swarm Orc army.
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 08 2012, 21:31

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
140 approaching orks doesnt make sense to me, and plays against our outranging the greenskins strategy. The Talos can still be hurt by Orky shooting, granted it saves better, but if you are worried about shooting give a razorwing night shields, then shoota boyz can be as close as 12 1/2 inches away and not even be able to shoot at it.

Orks have the best counter to flyers, board real-estate, i.e so many models you have problem manoeuvring your flyers, and the other one is the dakkajet, they will tear any of our flyers to pieces any day. Those would be my main concerns if I was running flyers against orks.

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
1As a counter, Lootas can only be taken in squads up to 15; and have the same problem as regular Orks-Low LD in groups under 10 and no real armour.

As for looters, they tend to be behind aegis defence lines so their armour save shouldn't be a problem. Not to mention if they are taken in units of 10 or less they can go to ground for a 2+ cover save. Very effective even if they only get one or two hits, if they already went to ground they won't be sacrificing any of their fire-power targeting your flyers as they would be firing snapshots anyway.


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MalysII
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeSat Dec 08 2012, 22:39

can i suggest the humble Shredder? i mean, yes, that's no blaster in warrior squads, but a small blast S6 AP- shot could do some damage in a horde of boyz
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 09 2012, 00:17

I find small blasts to be appallingly bad. Unless your opponent bunches his models ridiculously close you're lucky to get more than 1 or 2 models under most blasts. And that's assuming the damn thing doesn't scatter!

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MalysII
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 09 2012, 15:21

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I find small blasts to be appallingly bad. Unless your opponent bunches his models ridiculously close you're lucky to get more than 1 or 2 models under most blasts. And that's assuming the damn thing doesn't scatter!

With respect, Count.... we DE wouldn't scatter that much, plus space is a premuim and large squads will need to bunch up for all the models to fit on the table! that's one more dead ork anyway compared to rifle shots and every dead Ork helps Razz
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeSun Dec 09 2012, 21:50

@MalysII wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
I find small blasts to be appallingly bad. Unless your opponent bunches his models ridiculously close you're lucky to get more than 1 or 2 models under most blasts. And that's assuming the damn thing doesn't scatter!

With respect, Count.... we DE wouldn't scatter that much, plus space is a premuim and large squads will need to bunch up for all the models to fit on the table! that's one more dead ork anyway compared to rifle shots and every dead Ork helps Razz

I've used small blasts a lot with BS4 models (Plasma Cannon on my BA Devs) and I almost always wish I'd taken something else. For every game where you manage to land a shot on a terminator squad that's just arrived by Deep Strike there's 3 games where they either scatter off every target, are only able to hit 1 model due to good spacing or, in the case of plasma, land perfectly on a prime target and then roll a 1 for Gets Hot! Evil or Very Mad

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PostSubject: Re: Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks   Fighting BattleWagon/Horde Orks I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 14 2012, 21:39

I don't tend to take plasma cannons in my marine alter ego, but I love the thunderfire cannon. It shoots 4 blast templates and it is rare that they all miss (or hit). But with still hitting on a 4 or less on the scatter, the hit 4 times more often than they miss 4 times. (3-1 in my case). That said, I've found targeting the blast weapons is the key to make them work and I can't always target the thing that is the shooting priority for everyone else. Instead the thunderfire seeks the places where the enemy is concentrated. Against horde armies, that is pretty easy in deployment. Best I've ever done is 7 and 4-5 is more common because they have two competing problems. If they disperse, you get fewer under your template, but you are less likely to scatter off them entirely. If they bunch, you get more per hit, but are more likely to scatter off them entirely. And you always keep your scatter in mind and try to place your blast so that you maximize your chance of hitting on a scatter, sometimes at the expense of models under it on a direct hit. Other than that, you look for places where terrain funnels the enemy and forces them to bunch up -- make sure your blast weapons cover those areas when you deploy them. for most of the game, you should have decent targets to drop blasts on though picking can get scarce later in the game. Sometimes, though I have targeted a single guy like a dismounted necron lord with one would left or an obliteration.

Against less hordy armies, you do lose effectiveness, but you can still find targets, and with these guys, you don't have to kill as many to cause the same proportional loss. I also seem to like my blasts better when I can drop them in a group. Thus I like Typhoon squadrons (multiple missile balsts), thunderfires (4 S6 blasts), and devestator squads with missile launchers or plasma cannons. It feels like I have much less luck with single blast weapons.

What I don't like about plasma cannons if the tendency my dice have to blow me up with them.

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