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Mt252368
Hellion
Mt252368

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PostSubject: Re: Tyranids   Tyranids - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 11 2012, 07:41

Perfect.

Thanks for the clarification!
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Nomic
Wych
Nomic

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PostSubject: Re: Tyranids   Tyranids - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 11 2012, 08:23

Harlequins still get a 2+ coversave, provided they are inside terrain. They don't get a save in the open, tho.

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Murkglow
Kabalite Warrior
Murkglow

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PostSubject: Re: Tyranids   Tyranids - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 11 2012, 08:28

Are you sure they still get the increased cover and not just the base cover from the terrain? After all the cover from being in the open is mearly an increase from a base as well (in this case a base of 0). Makes more sense to me that they only get the 5/4+ that the cover would have normally given, both from a fluff as well as a rules standpoint.

I mean sure you can argue that "A unit can't take cover saves from any source other than the terrain they are in" doesn't specifically stop them from enhancing said cover but frankly that seems pretty rules lawyery to me and not in keeping with the spirit of these three FAQ questions. That might just be me though.
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: Tyranids   Tyranids - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 11 2012, 10:58

@Murkglow wrote:
Are you sure they still get the increased cover and not just the base cover from the terrain? After all the cover from being in the open is mearly an increase from a base as well (in this case a base of 0). Makes more sense to me that they only get the 5/4+ that the cover would have normally given, both from a fluff as well as a rules standpoint.

I mean sure you can argue that "A unit can't take cover saves from any source other than the terrain they are in" doesn't specifically stop them from enhancing said cover but frankly that seems pretty rules lawyery to me and not in keeping with the spirit of these three FAQ questions. That might just be me though.

The Stealth and Shrouded rules increase an existing cover save and there is nothing in the rules of FAQ that would suggest this is not allowed.

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Murkglow
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranids   Tyranids - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 11 2012, 15:16

Fair enough, this just strikes me as another Lelith ignoring armor saves with grenades/quad gun kinda thing. I'll just have to wait for more errata I guess.
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: Tyranids   Tyranids - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 11 2012, 15:22

@Murkglow wrote:
Fair enough, this just strikes me as another Lelith ignoring armor saves with grenades/quad gun kinda thing. I'll just have to wait for more errata I guess.

I would not use the Lelith thing as it's a blatant exploit, regardless of whether it is RAW or not, but this I would happily use as it doesn't seem in any way odd or unintended to me.

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Murkglow
Kabalite Warrior
Murkglow

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PostSubject: Re: Tyranids   Tyranids - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 11 2012, 15:24

To each their own of course but what is your view on why this doesn't seem odd or unintended? A cover save out in the open is essentually the same as enhancing an existing cover save (just the cover save it is enhancing is - instead of 5+ or whatever). Why should it ignore one enhancement and not the other? Why should it have no effect in one instance but full unaltered effect in another?
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranids   Tyranids - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 11 2012, 15:36

The rule says that the target can only count the benefits of cover they are in or touching if it lies between them and the Hive Guard. The cover save generated by Stealth and Shrouded does not meet the above requirement, so if the Harlequin is out in the open then he doesn't qualify and doesn't get any cover save. If however he's in an applicable form of cover then he gets a cover save and this is increased by his Stealth and Shrouded rules.


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Murkglow
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranids   Tyranids - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 11 2012, 15:40

Yes, but that's the same argument that goes for Lelith too (ie rules as written). Why are you against that one but not this one? Or more correctly why does that seem like a "blatant exploit" but this seems intended?
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranids   Tyranids - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 11 2012, 15:45

@Murkglow wrote:
Yes, but that's the same argument that goes for Lelith too (ie rules as written). Why are you against that one but not this one? Or more correctly why does that seem like a blatant exploit but this seems intended?

They are both RAW but one is IMO very clearly an exploit whereas the other seems perfectly proper. I just don't see any reason why Stealth and Shrouded wouldn't work if a model was in suitable cover.

To expand a little more, I can see exactly how the Lelith situation has arisen. She had no ranged attacks when her codex was written and so it didn't matter that her rules were loosely worded and allowed all her attacks to ignore armour. She only had melee attacks so they were the only attacks that it applied to. When 6th came along she suddenly gained the ability to throw grenades and fire gun emplacements and now her rules are no longer appropriate but have yet to be amended.

With the Impaler Cannon I don't see any such complication or oversight and it seems to me that it is 'working as intended'.

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pantofful
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranids   Tyranids - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 11 2012, 15:51

And since that's the way stealth and shrouded work for every model when nightfighting is in effect, so to me it's essentially an ability that makes them as difficult to see as a model at night...
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Bugs_N_Orks
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranids   Tyranids - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 11 2012, 16:25

You could make the same argument for Going-to-Ground. If you do it out in the open Hive guard ignore your 6+ cover, but if you do it in area terrain are you gonna argue that hive guard ignore the +2 bonus you get?

@pantofful wrote:
And since that's the way stealth and shrouded work for every model when nightfighting is in effect, so to me it's essentially an ability that makes them as difficult to see as a model at night...
I'm not sure what your point is, but fluff wise that's not what the Shadowseer does. Veil of Tears removes the harlies from the minds of your enemies. Even if you can see around corners it's hard to hit something you're not even sure is there.
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Murkglow
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranids   Tyranids - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 11 2012, 16:36

@Bugs_N_Orks wrote:
@pantofful wrote:
And since that's the way stealth and shrouded work for every model when nightfighting is in effect, so to me it's essentially an ability that makes them as difficult to see as a model at night...
I'm not sure what your point is, but fluff wise that's not what the Shadowseer does. Veil of Tears removes the harlies from the minds of your enemies. Even if you can see around corners it's hard to hit something you're not even sure is there.

Fluff wise the question remains: Why is the ability completely negated while in the open but fully effective when in cover? Either night fighting or Veil of Tears, if Impalers are totally unaffected by them in the open (I guess Impalers don't have the Harlies removed from their mind in the open) then they should be just as unaffected in a forest.

Anyway I'll stop arguing it. I've said what I wanted to say.
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BMD
Hellion
BMD

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PostSubject: Re: Tyranids   Tyranids - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 13 2012, 06:52

Fluff-wise, the Hive Guard negate cover by using other Tyranid units line of sight to see the enemy. If the Harlies are in cover, then they should get the benefits of Veil of Tears.
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Seelenberührer
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranids   Tyranids - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 13 2012, 14:01

Sorry - forgive my being completely dense, but which Harlequin special rule are we talking about here? My codex mentions "Veil of Tears", which only affects their visibility, not their cover save, and their "Holosuits", which gives them an invulnerable save. Neither talks about giving a cover save bonus.

Otherwise, I'd say that any special rule that improved an existing cover save would still apply. Think of it as a Venn-diagram. There is stuff that the rule applies to, and there is stuff that the Hiveguard doesn't ignore, and somewhere there is an overlap.
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Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranids   Tyranids - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 13 2012, 14:03

It's from the FAQ:

Quote :
Page 42 – Shadowseers, Veil of Tears.
Replace the last three sentences with the following: “The Shadowseer, and all models in her unit, have the Stealth and Shrouded special rules.”

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Seelenberührer
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranids   Tyranids - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 13 2012, 14:16

Ah, silly me. Thanks for the clarification. I'm still a total n00b and don't use harlequins, so I didn't even look at their part of the FAQ.

Yes, I would think they would still work. Just not in the open. In a fluff and rules sense, it's a function of what the cover is being provided by. The Stealth and Shrouded rules allow the Harlequins to make better use of cover that the Hiveguard is not able to ignore. Since the Hiveguard can ignore 'open terrain' cover, no bonuses are applied there.

However, I can see where Murkglow is coming from. And I can imagine GW FAQing this in line with his view. Not necessarily because it's more fluffy or balanced, but because it's more elegant, rules-wise, to say that it ignores all special rules, leaving only the 'naked' cover save.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranids   Tyranids - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 13 2012, 15:28

@Seelenberührer wrote:
Sorry - forgive my being completely dense, but which Harlequin special rule are we talking about here? My codex mentions "Veil of Tears", which only affects their visibility, not their cover save, and their "Holosuits", which gives them an invulnerable save. Neither talks about giving a cover save bonus.

Harlies "Veil of Tears" was FAQed to now give stealth and shrouding, instead of the 2d6 check for range

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ravengoescaw
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranids   Tyranids - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 17 2012, 23:49

For dark eldar to beat nids it is all about to thinks ranged poison shooting and target priority. Looking at his list, Go fast attack all out charge, target his Hive guard, Tervigons, Zoanthropes then flyrant, then mop up with massive shooting on his gaunts. Stay out of melee against nids, that is their strong suit. Granted D.E. have some very good CC but even the most B.A.M.F. Succubus or incubi squad will eventually go down to wave after wave of little gribblies. Stck to this target priority as close to movement allows, You want to be killing a unit every round so keep your army to gether and mass shoot, don't stop till dead.

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LordSqueak
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PostSubject: Re: Tyranids   Tyranids - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 19 2012, 16:55

I played some Bugs this week at 1500.

My army:

2x Venoms w/ 4 Blasterborn and 1 shardcarbine

2x Raiders w/SR's and 10 warriors and 1 shard cannon

1x Raider w/Succ (agonizer) + Bloodbrides and Syren (PW) w/PGL

6x Reavers w/2 HL and Arena Champ w/PW

2x Ravagers w/ 1 DS + 2 DL

His Army:

1x 16 melee
1x 16 shooters
1x 3 Warriers
1x Mortar
1x Flyrant
2x genestealers (1 was the elite one)
1x Prime (the 12 shot strength 5 guys)

1x Drop-pod with the doom thing inside

He started with the bottom 4 lines in reserve. He went first and could only shoot the barrage weapon because I had everything behind cover.

By the end of the first turn I had almost tabled him, as he had just 1 warrior, the mortar, 1 of the claw guys and 4 of the shooter guys left. He was completely gone by the end of the third except for his Flyrant. I lost 2 raiders and one full squad of warriors, the other squad of warriors was down to 6 left. It was a slaughter basically.
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