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 Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 06 2012, 12:34

@Plastikente wrote:
Why is it useless against IG though? They have independent characters you can target, and when you get S6 you can really tear through guardsmen and vehicles.
They don't normally run independent characters as command squads and Platoon command squads don't contain independent characters and therefore you can't trigger the soul trap.

Their only independent characters: Commissar Lords and Primaris psykers don't see much play as the regular command squad is considered a superior choice. Mainly because they are cheap and have access to chimera, good orders like fire on my target (re-roll passed cover saves) and up to four special weapons.

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Plastikente
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 06 2012, 12:40

The couple of people in my LGS who play gaurd like Yarrick and Lord Commissars, so I've never had trouble finding a soul trap target. If that's uncommon then I'll mention it when I update the soul-trap section.

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 06 2012, 12:50

Yeah, lord commissars are considered to be a sub-par choice (against general internet wisdom that is).

To be honest against guard filling your soul trap should be the least of your worries.

Also it's not exactly the most expensive piece of war gear, though I do sweat every time I take that leadership test.

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 06 2012, 15:21

Can you disembark after deep striking with 6th ed rules?

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 06 2012, 15:53

@Seshiru wrote:
Can you disembark after deep striking with 6th ed rules?

You wouldn't think so as they count as moving at Cruising Speed, which would normally disallow it. But the Deep Strike rules specifically say:

Quote :
In the Movernent phase during which they arrive, deep striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark frorn a deep striking Transport vehicle if they are in one

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 06 2012, 16:11

Awesome, my thoughts were on the moving at crusing speed as you had mentioned.

Maybe I do need to consider running the Duke

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 06 2012, 16:57

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Seshiru wrote:
Can you disembark after deep striking with 6th ed rules?

You wouldn't think so as they count as moving at Cruising Speed, which would normally disallow it. But the Deep Strike rules specifically say:

My personal take on this is that it must be to allow SMurfs to get out of their drop pods. Why they didn't do that by adding a special rule to drop pods rather than letting everyone get out of their vehicles (except Dark Eldar without the Duke!) is beyond me. I'm drifting slightly off topic now though...

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 06 2012, 16:59

It's not as good as it was, as you can't full reserve anymore - which rolls it down into the 'semi-competitive, at best' category of army builds.

But it should still be viable - and there's probably some decent tweeks that could be made to it.

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 13 2012, 17:25

Finally got round to drafting some changes, incorporating comments so far...

Archon Wargear [Replace listed item comments with...]

  • Power Weapon. A useful cheap weapon to pair with a Soul Trap. See Part 1 of this series for a breakdown of the different power weapons and their uses.
  • Blaster. A Blaster is a great alternative if you don’t want a close-combat Archon. With his massive BS he has a 0.889 chance of hitting with every shot, and that AP2 Lance is great for vehicles and armoured infantry alike. If you are willing to pay the price you could even give him this alongside a CC build, to make sure he doesn’t get stranded out on a flank somewhere – it’s not a cheap option though.
  • Electro-corrosive Whip. A useful weapon for challenges and hunting monstrous creatures. Particularly once your Shadowfield shorts it’s very important to reduce the impact of incoming attacks. The big problem is getting that unsaved wound in the first place, as you will only be striking at your base strength.
  • Haywire Grenades. A subject of some debate on the board. You pay 2.5 times as much as your troops do for these, and I wouldn’t want my Archon to be assaulting vehicles anyway. On the other hand, it gives you the flexibility to threaten them if you want to, and some think that this is well worth the cost.
  • Soul-trap. A beautiful piece of DE evil. Pick the right victims to start upping your strength and you will still be an absolute assassin in assault. Pair with a power weapon (cheap) or huskblade (expensive) and watch your enemies flee in terror [evil cackling]. However... there is a down side. You need to take out an IC or MC with your Archon to get the party started. This means he needs to be mobile and have a decent escort to enable him to survive to pick a fight. And if your enemy takes very few ICs and MCs (Imperial Guard?), then you’re soul-trap is just an expensive bauble.


Archon builds [Add...]

  • Venom Blade, Shadowfield [95].... Add a Blaster if you like for a jack-of-all-trades.
  • Blaster only [75]. Super-cheap Archon for a shooting force. Has no self-protection but is ideally suited to ride with your Blasterborn in a Venom and stay away from assault.


Court - How to use [Add...]
By sacrificing the weaker squad members to gunfire you can make sure you keep that majority toughness for when it counts. Majority toughness also counts in assaults.

Succubus - Strengths [Add...]
I8 makes her deadly for sweeping advances.

Succubus - How to use [Add...]

  • With Wyches/Bloodbrides. The ideal pairing. Everyone benefits from the same combat drugs, so you shouldn’t have trouble remembering them, and if you get that lucky 6 the unit starts out with 2 pain tokens! An ECW and Agoniser (on the Succubus and Hekatrix/Syren) make a great combo for taking out monstrous creatures. This gets even better with a few Shardnet/Impaler combos in the squad.


Haemonculus - Upgrades
[Add...] Haemonculus Ancient. Has a useful Ld buff (standard Haemis have same Ld as a warrior), as well as higher A, W and I. Definitely worth paying for if this is going to be your warlord.
Power Weapon. [Replace with...] One unit that can take real advantage of a Power Axe. Coven units have plenty of poison anyway, so a bit of high strength AP2 complements them well, even if you strike last.

Haemonculus - How to use

  • Close Combat Specialisation. [Replace with...] The Mindphase Gauntlet is great fun against a low I army, otherwise a few S5, AP2 axes are a great bonus to any Dark Eldar assault. Otherwise you can always just grab a Venom Blade.


Raider - Upgrades

  • Shock Prow. [Replace with...] If you tank shock an enemy squad they are probably just going to assault you in their next turn, however in the end game that might be your only option to force them out of your deployment zone or off an objective. If you consider using your Raider to ram then you will most likely pen yourself, and that may well be the end of you, but again in a desperate situation this might be a worthwhile risk to take. Personally, I don’t take shock prows – their usefulness is too limited to be worth the cost in my eyes.
  • Enhanced Aethersails. [Add...] These can be used in addition to going Flat Out (6th Ed FAQ v1.1), giving an average of 7” extra movement. I find my Raiders fast enough anyway, but this could be useful for getting those non-Fleet passengers a little closer to the enemy, especially when entering from reserve, or playing from a hammer and anvil deployment.
  • Retrofire Jets. I don’t see much value to this. The speed of a Raider means that you can get to almost anywhere on the board by Turn 2 anyway, without the risk of your Reserves roll missing or getting a Deep Strike mishap. Equally, if you’re going to start in reserve, Enhanced Aethersails will let you get almost anywhere on the board with less risk and more precision.


Raider - How to use [Add...]
Once they have fulfilled their primary role of delivering units to where you want them, you can then start using them for other functions. At this point, the main things to do are block enemy movement or screen your own fragile troops by getting in the way. If you sit on an objective that’s been left in the open you may be able to tempt your opponent into wrecking or exploding you, leaving a nice piece of area terrain behind.

Venom - How to use [Add...]
Also, because the Venom has a Flicker field, use it to screen your Raiders during deployment, in order to give them a cover save.

Warriors - How to use [Add...]
(Although Wracks can be very survivable, especially if they go to ground, I don’t consider them “suited” because they have no offensive effect in this role).

Wyches - How to use [Add...]

  • Go tank-hunting in a Venom. A min-sized Wych squad has no redundancy. A bit of lucky overwatch or an exploding vehicle can easily reduce the squad below an effective size for an assault. That said, 5 Wyches with HWG in a Venom is a real threat to any vehicle they come across; remember to throw one grenade as you approach and laugh because vehicles can’t overwatch.


[Add...] WRACKS AND HELLIONS
Both of these units have the potential to be taken is troops if you select the right HQ choice. Nevertheless, I will deal with them in the Elites and Fast Attack sections respectively.

I think that's dealt with everyone's comments. If you think I've missed something, or if you have anything further to add, please post, and the discussion will continue.

-P

[Edit...] And a little bit more about the Hexrifle:
Hexrifle.
Weapon vs MEQ vs TEQ vs GEQ vs MC
Splinter Weapon 0.111 0.056 0.333 0.111
Hexrifle 0.185 0.111 0.333 0.185
The Hexrifle gives slightly better effect than a splinter rifle shot (I know Haemis can’t take a Splinter Rifle, but this is for comparison). But you only get one shot. So on average you should wound 1 Space Marine every 5.4 turns (the odds are slightly better for an ancient). If you do get that wound, it is pinning and gives a chance of insta-killing ICs and MCs, but the wound rate is so low that you can’t really build tactics around this fact. Oh, and it’s a sniper weapon, so sometimes you can choose where to allocate your hits in a squad. But the Haemi is a character, so you could do that anyway. I wouldn’t pay the points for this.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 18 2012, 14:26

Great stuff, a few little things. I'm just being overcritical now, as your work is to a very high standard and took you a lot of time, I feel I should give you as much feedback as I can.

Quote :
Haywire Grenades. A subject of some debate on the board. You pay 2.5 times as much as your troops do for these, and I wouldn’t want my Archon to be assaulting vehicles anyway. On the other hand, it gives you the flexibility to threaten them if you want to, and some think that this is well worth the cost.

So far you have taken a neutral approach to reviewing items, in this particular section you break away from that trend and let opinion come into what so far has been a very factual and unbiased review. I think you should rewrite this in a similar fasion to how you wrote the corrosive whip section. i.e a more neutral stance: despite it being arguably a debatable weapon (i have yet to see a list use the whip), you still state it's uses and benefits (this is good! as most review just blanket things as good or bad rather then going over the uses of wargear or units).

At the end of the day the haywire grenade gives you a BS6-7 hull point removing shooting attack and give your archon the option to deal with tanks/walkers. It might be twice the price but it is on a model with BS7 and a 2++ save and isn't a bad choice if you want to give your archon more options. Whether this is an overall sensible strategy is debatable but it doesn't detract from the wargears effectiveness it's still 5pts for a reliable way to strip a hull point (by the time an assault archon is within 8" of a transport/vehicle it may very well only have a single Hull Point left).

Quote :

Personally, I don’t take shock prows – their usefulness is too limited to be worth the cost in my eyes.

Another personal opinion that detracts from the rest of what is a very objective and well written paragraph. I think you would be better of saying something along the lines of "whether this makes it worth it's cost is debatable/down to how crucial tank shock fits into your battle plan".

Quote :

I wouldn’t pay the points for this.

Again, not necessary, and detract from what you wrote previously.

Personally I'm not a fan of hex rifles, but it's a great option if you want to run a WWP haemonculus with some eldar pathfinders. They give him scout letting him deploy the portal reliably 27" into the board (12" deployment zone, 6" scout move, 6" move, 3" portal), he gives them night vision so that they can be effective even during night fight, and the hexrifle gives him a sniper weapon that will be shooting similar targets to the eldar pathfinders. In this particular case it's a great option.

The overall theme I have noticed so far and what originally drew me to your articles, is that they were objective and informative and helped people make an informed decision as opposed to straight out telling people what they should or shouldn't do (a common occurrence on the internet).

In short you didn't say the electro corrosive whip was a questionable option, and I commend you for this, but adopt the same stance with all your reviews. Better to say an option is expensive than to say "it's not worth it" or "I wouldn't take it".

Again the above is me being overcritical and trying to make the review more consistent and appealing to the reader, so take it or leave it.

Great work! Look forward to the next section. Smile


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Plastikente
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 18 2012, 19:08

@Mushkilla: Thanks for the feedback. I wasn't trying to be overly objective when I started (which I guess is why I have slipped out of it occasionally), but I take your point about the style. I agree that it is better to let people know the pros and cons, then let them decide for themselves, so I'll modify the phrases you picked out.

@Everyone else: if I don't get any further feedback over the next couple of days then I will assume that I have satisfied everyone's initial comments, and I'll push the final article through to publishing Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 18 2012, 19:48

I agree with Mush about the idea of a Hex'd Haemie attached to some Pathfinders, it is a good option.

In addition, I currently run two Haemies in my monthly league, each with a squad of Wracks with an Acothyst. That gets me two Liquifiers and two Hexrifles in each unit. I usually keep them in cover and hold them for contesting objectives later in the game - but not always, sometimes they hoof it elsewhere, for which the assault Hexrifle is nice. In my last tournie, I had three such units, just for fun.

If anything approaches them, the Liquifiers throw up a nice wall (except when your opponent parks a Dirge Caster nearby, grrr). In the interim, they plunk away with their rifles at long range each turn and provide some nice harrassment and distraction for my opponents.

Obviously, they cannot be relied upon as a strategy, and there are harder-hitting long range options available, but my success rate so far is certainly better than one kill per gun per 5.4 turns. And since I always fire them at high-priority/-cost targets, when they do succeed I find that they more than make up for their cost. Plus there's the look on my opponent's face Very Happy

I understand not everyone likes them, but I do.
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 18 2012, 20:29

Nice, detailed and mostly fair reviews; really good effort, and now well refined following comments. I've only got a few bits and bobs to remark on.

@Plastikente wrote:

COURT OF THE ARCHON
The Court is not a retinue – the associated Archon does not have to join the unit.
Strengths: Er... some fairly good cc models
Weaknesses: Not an outstanding unit in this Codex. Everything this unit does can be done just as well or better by something else in the army list. You have to take at least one of everything. Not everything in the unit has Power from Pain.
Components:
  • Medusae. Basically a Kabalite Warrior with a variable S, variable AP flamer. A bit too random for my liking, but if the dice favour you it could be awesome.
  • Ur-Ghul. Lots of attacks at an above average (for DE) S.
  • Lhamaean. A Kabalite Warrior with better poison. Also gives the Archon better poison, but this will only affect his Splinter Pistol, so not that impressive.
  • Sslyth. Almost the same statline as a Grotesque (minus 1W), but a Sslyth can shoot. Costs the same as a Grot, but doesn’t get Power from Pain. On the other hand, there is no risk of berserk rampage.

How to use: Just another close combat unit, with a bit of medium-close range shooting as it approaches. Taking 3 Sslyth and 1 of everything else would give you a majority toughness of 5 until something dies, which would be fun and unexpected for a DE army.

A fair review of this generally ignored unit. It could be noted that even though not all members have powerfrompain, the ones that don't start with feel no pain (& even furious charge for the 'mighty' ur-ghul!). They all also have fleet (good), but no assault grenades (bad). Some of them are even well costed: A Sslyth unit would make a great alternative to grotesques for an almost identical cost, and medusae would be similarly handy. The biggest problem that you noted is the fact you have to take at least one of each, and some are limited to a low number (e.g. Sslyths). This more or less ruins the unit on a competitive level, so could be emphasised here.


@Plastikente wrote:
[*]Animus Vitae. This is a CCW, so you can’t claim its effects at the same time as another weapon (one which will actually help you kill something). Probably not worthwhile.

The text in the codex simply states that 'if the bearer kills one or more enemy models in a round of combat...' blah blah blah, the effects are applied (i.e. gain a pain token), so I would interpret that as saying you don't actually have to use the animus vitae in assault, you simply have to be the bearer. Could be used as part of a haemonculus close combat build designed to make maximise pain token use (if such a thing exists!!). Cheap too.

@Plastikente wrote:
[*]Raider Warriors. 10 Kabalite Warriors, Blaster, Splinter Cannon, Raider, Splinter Racks [195]. Anti-infantry gunboat. The Sybarite gives them more staying power when they start to take casualties and the Blaster again gives an anti-tank option.

If looking to save points, drop the blaster to maximise use of the splinter rifles & dedicate the unit to anti-infantry. There are usually lots of other anti-tank options in a DE list attached to more dedicated units.

@Plastikente wrote:
[*]Static Warriors. 20 Kabalite Warriors, 2 Dark Lances, Sybarite with Venom Blade, Phantasm Grenade Launcher [265]. A big unit designed to sit in decent cover holding an objective. Dark Lances let the squad deal with vehicles until the infantry get in range. Supplement with a Haemonculus to make this unit even tougher to shift. [/list]

Again if looking to save points, drop the sybarite upgrades as they are not terribly helpful except to slightly prolong the unit's survival if it gets assaulted.

@Plastikente wrote:
[*]Shardnet and Impaler. No effect against enemies with 1 attack, and can’t be used to assist characters in challenges, but these are absolutely great for hindering monstrous creatures, or for general tarpitting, especially if used in multiples. The one weapon whose effect can’t be simulated by just adding more Wyches. [/list]

Compared to how wych weapons used to work (i.e. 1st codex update), this weapon has always seemed a little underwhelming and pathetic - and overpriced! You can only take one in most squad builds, so may as well save some points, or take advantage of I6 and get another wych to pour on the attacks. And monstrous creatures should always be properly hindered by reducing their wounds characteristic to zero with venom blades & agonisers...by which I mean to say that wyches don't really need any help taking care of such opponents!

@Plastikente wrote:
[*]Don’t take a Venom. A min-sized Wych squad has no redundancy. A bit of lucky overwatch or an exploding vehicle can easily reduce the squad below an effective size. I wouldn’t bother trying to mount Wyches in a Venom.

I agree with your assessment of this unit & dislike its vulnerability also.


Anyway, just a few nip-picky points that hopefully don't irritate too much! Looking forward to the rest of the codex unit reviews, and hoping that you give the poor old mandrakes a fair assessment, lol!

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeTue Dec 18 2012, 21:50

@Plastikente wrote:
@Mushkilla: Thanks for the feedback. I wasn't trying to be overly objective when I started (which I guess is why I have slipped out of it occasionally), but I take your point about the style.

For me it's one of the many things that makes your guide stand out, as it makes the reader feel like he is having a conversation rather than being lectured (but that' just my opinion). Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 19 2012, 16:31

I always just lecture - after all, clearly I'm right and no dissenting opinions can be allowed Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 19 2012, 18:19

remember to add in the bit about the court of the archon build with maxing out Medusae and adding in a haemie for some flamer goodness.

Also like I said before, the lhamaean is actually pretty cost effective for her points value (compared to an equally equiped model) Im not saying they are good, but that is to say something...

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 19 2012, 18:33

Quote :
*]Don’t take a Venom. A min-sized Wych squad has no redundancy. A bit of lucky overwatch or an exploding vehicle can easily reduce the squad below an effective size. I wouldn’t bother trying to mount Wyches in a Venom.

Dont get it here. I dont agree, i mean completely.

You have redundancy in min-sized Wych squads by taking 3+ of those. With added benefit of taking 3 venoms for them. Thats the same 15 wyches that would have flied in 2 raiders. But instead they fly in 3 venoms. There is also target saturation, many people tend to take or forced by old codexes to take low numbers AV platforms, no matter how good they are. Yeah, multimelta can smack one Venom really effective. But only one.

Same old venom spam is more effective with Wyches inside, in my opinion.

Each of them individually can smack any vehicle in the game, except flyer. Which in turn allow to concentrate less on AV and more on hammer style AI, like Disses etc. Which is big boon for our codex, cause we in 5th edition we were forced to take all the lances we can grab, and have to forego all the brutal anti-infantry power available (except for the Splinter Cannons, that is).
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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 19 2012, 18:41

I agree with Azdrubael 5 wyches in a venom should not be overlooked as a viable option.

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeWed Dec 19 2012, 19:42

Thanks for this thread, been playing for 3 months, my first army, everyone tells me it was a huge mistake because its the hardest. It helps to know some of this, "math hammer".

Ill have to try some of this out.

BUT I AM GETTING BETTER THOUGH!!!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeThu Dec 20 2012, 19:04

@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
*]Don’t take a Venom. A min-sized Wych squad has no redundancy. A bit of lucky overwatch or an exploding vehicle can easily reduce the squad below an effective size. I wouldn’t bother trying to mount Wyches in a Venom.

Dont get it here. I dont agree, i mean completely.

You have redundancy in min-sized Wych squads by taking 3+ of those. With added benefit of taking 3 venoms for them. Thats the same 15 wyches that would have flied in 2 raiders. But instead they fly in 3 venoms. There is also target saturation, many people tend to take or forced by old codexes to take low numbers AV platforms, no matter how good they are. Yeah, multimelta can smack one Venom really effective. But only one.

Same old venom spam is more effective with Wyches inside, in my opinion.

Each of them individually can smack any vehicle in the game, except flyer. Which in turn allow to concentrate less on AV and more on hammer style AI, like Disses etc. Which is big boon for our codex, cause we in 5th edition we were forced to take all the lances we can grab, and have to forego all the brutal anti-infantry power available (except for the Splinter Cannons, that is).

I agree that these wych squads are used quite commonly now, and people presumeably find them useful - so I think they should be included as a viable option in the guide (despite my own reservations).

However, I think it's hyperbole to say that you disagree completely with Plastikente's remarks. After all, I'm sure you would agree that a 5-man wych squad does indeed lack redundancy (your point about taking multiple squads accepted of course), and that if the venom explodes you probably won't have an effective squad remaining after the dice have been rolled? Sure, a couple of wyches can still threaten to strip off some hull points, but they can so easily be stopped before doing that. For that reason I view them almost as suicide squads - disembark, kill tank, die - but these gals are your troops, and shouldn't be thrown away so flagrantly (apologies for flowery language!)

In your example, you compare 3 venoms to 2 raiders and I agree that I'd rather have the venoms, probably just because of the splinter cannons. However, the raider squads would likely have hekatrix upgrades and be viable in infantry assault & AT. HQ units can also join them to boost them further. Target saturation is a valid point, but note that raiders are tougher than venoms (something which has saved me from time to time).

You also note that this would allow you take take e.g. more disintegrators, but with no raiders (I assume, as you have argued taking venoms instead) you'd have to put them on your ravagers which takes away your anti-flyer abilities. A minor point as all those splinter cannon will take care of anti-infantry duty anyway, but I'm not sure "wyches instead of warriors" would allow us to make any radical changes to the rest of our army lists..... would you be willing to take talos instead of ravagers? This is a question that is probably best discussed with the rest of the unit reviews, but perhaps some proper examples of what you are thinking of would help when it comes to that stage of the discussion.

Ok, this has got out of hand now, I never meant to go on this long! In summary I agree with your main point, but thought i'd pick on a few bits here and there as I think such a fundamental shift of a troop choice is worth some analysis Very Happy

Merging a double-post here. Please use edit function to add to a previous post instead. Gob.

@shadowseercB wrote:
Thanks for this thread, been playing for 3 months, my first army, everyone tells me it was a huge mistake because its the hardest. It helps to know some of this, "math hammer".

Ill have to try some of this out.

BUT I AM GETTING BETTER THOUGH!!!!!

Glad you have decided to take on the Dark Eldar as your first army - this is not a huge mistake, you're just ambitious! The Dark Kin will make you a more thoughtful and finesse-oriented player ... or else!!

It's true that using mathematics (i'll confess i don't understand where the term "math-hammer" comes from) helps to compare units and wargear choices, but it has many limitations. Attempting to simulate the thousands of permutations of events that occur during a typical 40k game is basically impossible. Even just trying to replicate the various combat drug options is a bit of nightmare!

Anyway, have lots of fun (this should really be 'the most important rule') Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 21 2012, 12:32

@Squierboy wrote:

Glad you have decided to take on the Dark Eldar as your first army - this is not a huge mistake, you're just ambitious! The Dark Kin will make you a more thoughtful and finesse-oriented player ... or else!!
I couldn't agree more. And because they're challenging, you'll get much more satisfaction when they start to work for you.

@Squierboy wrote:

It's true that using mathematics (i'll confess i don't understand where the term "math-hammer" comes from) helps to compare units and wargear choices, but it has many limitations. Attempting to simulate the thousands of permutations of events that occur during a typical 40k game is basically impossible. Even just trying to replicate the various combat drug options is a bit of nightmare!
Again, I agree. Maybe I need a disclaimer. I do the "Mathhammer" (which I assume is just a net-speak combination of "maths" and "Warhammer") because I enjoy it, and it's a useful tool to help compare options. However it is not, and cannot be, the be-all and end-all. As you say, there are just too many factors beyond just average dice-roll expectations.

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeMon Dec 24 2012, 17:28

@Plastikente wrote:

Again, I agree. Maybe I need a disclaimer. I do the "Mathhammer" (which I assume is just a net-speak combination of "maths" and "Warhammer") because I enjoy it, and it's a useful tool to help compare options. However it is not, and cannot be, the be-all and end-all. As you say, there are just too many factors beyond just average dice-roll expectations.

Absolutely, it is interesting to run the numbers sometimes and help you make decisions - it could make sure your next purchase isn't a waste of money (competitively speaking). Especially when you're running low on Space Bucks.

Duh, I never really thought of 'hammer' being from warhammer. I just thought it was an Americanism and all the kids at high school spoke that way!

Oh, and merry christmas all!

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitimeFri Dec 28 2012, 15:16

Right, I had to call a close on feedback at some point, and finalise the blooming thing: Part 2 has now been uploaded to the master thread. I have taken your views under consideration (and in some cases even edited the article accordingly!), and given credit where due. Please note I have acknowledged all the voices in favour of haywire Wyches in Venoms.

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PostSubject: Re: Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units   Plastikente's Dark Eldar Unit Guide Part 2 - Core Units - Page 2 I_icon_minitime

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